Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Turnip Jedi wrote:
Interesting points people

I think there is quite the element of GW momentum and 'the only game in town' in making people adverse to dabbling outside the bubble, in my corner of the shire we haven't had a non-GW FLGS in over a decade so finding players can be tricky, although FB and the like help

My gaming club has pretty much given up on GW, not as any glorious hipster stand, just a sort of passive enough is enough groupthink (the mess of mid to late 7th was a nudge mind) although if someone was looking for a 40k game several players would be able to oblige

Most of what is played is usually picked up off Kickstarter or people's annual looting of the UK Games Expo

I mean, this is sort of true particularly if you do not have a club. Since I stopped regularly playing GW games I have stopped regularly wargaming. What GW has that most don't is the level of saturation that even if like me you have moved city or country a few times in a few years, you can still find someone to play with. I think this aspect of the games success is actually not well understood by the designers, hence the focus on gentleman's agreements and club play. For me, although I would like a club, Pick Up Games are kind of important to keep me in the loop of the hobby while things settle down for me. Unfortunately, the game as currently designed does not produce a satisfying experience in that context and has not for quite a while I believe. Privateer Press fell into that trap from the other direction, with tight rules but too much complexity and too steep a learning curve because of that to maintain a good turnover of newbies. PP has imploded where I live, otherwise I could be playing that. I think Mantic actually have some decent rules for this kind of play and I see a lot of X Wing and other Star Wars related stuff, but Mantic does not have the market penetration and I think likely never will have, making it essentially another "club game", and I am unfortunately not interested in wargaming in the Star Wars universe.

That is alright, I am not bitter about it really or anything like that, it is just an observation. I see people having fun with the game and I have moved on to other things which are quite satisfying for me in any case. But I would not have believed a few years ago that quitting GW would be defacto quitting wargaming.

I started miniatures war gaming outside Game Workshop games, but almost all the games I played were designed by former GW writers. However, I believe even without GW; I would still being playing miniatures games. It isn't the rules that convinced me but the idea of playing the fight part of tabletop RPG with only another player (as finding good rpg groups can be difficult). And yes, I know D&D started off more as miniatures war game that became an rpg. Chances are if GW didn't exist, modern miniatures war games would look to D&D as its base inspiration.

It wasn't until I lost interest in championing the games I did play or in the case of Dust when through a gak show Kickstarter followed by a gak show separation from Battlefront games followed by a new edition. With 40K, I don't have to do any work to find a game like I did with almost any other miniatures game. That is really all Games Workshop still has going for it. But that really is all it needs.

I only played the smallest fraction of 7th edition consisting mostly of the Dark Vengeance box set and a couple of Heralds of Ruin Kill Team games. For the intended scope of Warhammer 40K of about 1500-200 points, the 7th edition was awful. However, after HoR modified it for their Kill Team and mostly playing Loyal Marine vs. Chaos Marine skirmish games, I think 7th edition worked quite well. In fact, I like 7th edition HoR Kill Team more than I like 8th edition even though my personal favorite game scope is some where between the two and closer to regular 40K (think about 1000-1250 points).

I think 8th edition is good enough as rules go. Combined with market saturation and what a large majority of players have armies for I completely understand why it is so popular. Most miniatures war gamers I have met don't have the kind of income and/or time to invest in more than one or two games. Even less can be bothered to learn/try more than a single game system. I saw the same thing in tabletop rpgs pre-4th edition D&D. You might be able to play something other than Tolkien/D&D-equse fantasy but it better use the 3rd edition D&D rules as an engine. This issue is only magnified with the cost of miniatures and time commitment to build/paint them unlike rpgs where you could show up with a sheet of paper, pencil and handful dice.

The thing is 8th edition is only okay in my opinion. If I wanted to I could play a few games of week of it given the number of places that play it. However, I rarely can be bothered to do it. If it was any other game I already have (except Deadzone 2nd ed which I personally don't like) I would probably get in a game a least once a week. Like I said, I am tired of championing other games mostly since I have done it enough to know how it goes most of the time. I will play 8th edition, but even then I am not going to go too far out of my way to play it and more often than not would rather use my free time for something else.

TL;DR: GWs games mostly have a legacy of market saturation combined with tolerable rules sets which I believe is the reason why they continue to dominate the very niche, high-investment miniatures game hobby. For 40K, 8th edition is tolerable enough that many gamers rather play it that bother discovering/recruiting games they would like better. So long as GW can put out rules that are tolerable to most gamers they will continue to dominate the hobby with their legacy of market saturation.

Long may it continue. I don't want to be 40 with all these minis I've poured time and love into only to have them sit on a shelf because the game is dead.

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:
Long may it continue. I don't want to be 40 with all these minis I've poured time and love into only to have them sit on a shelf because the game is dead.

Same as I once thought. Now I'm in my 40's and my game WHFB was killed (Played from 1984 till its death). I know technically I could use my square based 25mm figures against someone's round based 40mm scale AoS models, but it would look silly and not be the same game I once enjoyed.

I hope for your sake that GW does keep the games you enjoy going.

Personally I'm happy they killed WHFB. It meant a voyage of discovery of so many amazing games... Kings of War, Deadzone, Frostgrave, SB&H, M&DRG, Gaslands, Warpath, Gates of Antares, Bolt Action, Saga, Rogue Stars, Dracula's America, TWD, Maelstrom's Edge, Dungeon Saga, Star Saga, Blood Eagle, X-Wing, and Silent Death. Not listed in any particular order, but I'd play any of those before touching any lousy GW rules again. I did buy Necromunda17, but it's so messed up with rules and contradictions across multiple books, I've yet to get to grips with it.

It's a mixed bag.

Today I played AoS and enjoyed it. Thursday was gangs of Comorragh, Wednesday Space Hulk. Last week was MTB, Saga and Tanks.

Other recents include 40K, Kill team, combat patrol, gorechosen, X wing, flames of war, and a dip into frostgrave.

All fun; some rule sets better than others.

 Turnip Jedi wrote:
Given GW appear to be on a high at the moment, I'm curious if the GW/AOS/40K faithful have been tempted by or play, or did play, non-GW games, and why you stopped or carried on

Note this isn't a my games better than yours thread, if you are having fun you are doing it right, just wondering about the dissonance between the Geedubs idea of 'the hobby' and my less GW-centric dogma

Have at it Dakka's

I started with Historicals as a young fella (along with TSR's Chainmail with fantasy figures), but I resisted WH and 40K for some time. As a military guy, though, I move around a lot and I found that 40K was indeed everywhere. I picked up some Space Marines during 2nd Ed and found myself enjoying the gameplay and the fluff. Played solidly and my eldest son also got into it ten years later.

I found my interest in 40K dulled by 6th Ed and killed by 7th. I had gotten heavily into Flames of War, so I was still gaming. I would still check out the 40K scene in my FLGS, and it was in decline. Two years ago, something called Warmachine filled the store on Friday nights and sold out Saturday tournaments (we can fit about 40 players in our FLGS). I found myself missing 40K and briefly contemplated trying this Warmachine thing but I put the box back on the shelf and slowly backed away...

Now, Warmachine seems to have nose-dived in popularity while 40K is firmly back on top (in my town, but I also travel a lot and this seems to be consistent). 40K sells out tourneys and you can always get a game. Heck, the last Warmachine tourney had something like 8 players while there were probably double that number of 40K players just having pickup games. FOW is on life support after their V4 disaster, but Team Yankee is showing some spark. And me? I came back to 40K with a vengeance with 8th Ed, but I still play FOW and TY. I am also noticing lots of former 40K players coming back to the fold. Maybe its a cycle? If 8th Ed gets stale then some other system will spark interest and GW will have to find a way to compete again. Circle of life and all that...I'm just glad I didn't throw out all my old 40K models three years ago!

Played X-Wing for a while, but found the constant new cards not to my taste.

Still a good game, just not for me.

Other than that, local scene is pretty much just GW, with the occasional hand of Magic.

I would say at this point in my life (now 45) that I am over-invested in GW to seriously consider playing anything else.

By that I mean I have such a huge collection of GW minis built up over the last 30 years that I doubt they will all be painted inside of my lifetime.

This makes starting another game system difficult - I can't really justify buying more minis to paint when I literally have a house bursting at the seams with GW stuff.

As an example, I toyed with the idea of Star Wars Legions - but that's another wargame that I would end up buying a ton of minis for that would still be in their boxes years later...

I love GW and I love their products and, for a long time, they were really the only company I had any exposure to.

Now that's not the case - I also really like the models for Malifaux and Wild West Exodus but I'm still painting all my 40K stuff and have a Khorne army for AoS that needs doing.

So although I have thought about branching out into other companies I haven't so far.

However - board games I can justify. You only need to buy one set and for the most part, I don't mind not having painted minis.

So I have been playing Zombicide: Black Plague which has been great fun and doesn't require a huge investment of time and money.

So, in short, I won't start another wargame but board games or possibly a small skirmish game might be doable.

I buy self contained miniatures boardgames on Kickstarter, usually with massive expansions. I count these as akin to miniatures wargaming.

 Turnip Jedi wrote:
Given GW appear to be on a high at the moment, I'm curious if the GW/AOS/40K faithful have been tempted by or play, or did play, non-GW games, and why you stopped or carried on

Note this isn't a my games better than yours thread, if you are having fun you are doing it right, just wondering about the dissonance between the Geedubs idea of 'the hobby' and my less GW-centric dogma

Have at it Dakka's

I started off with GW games, but was aware of other games fairly early on; a school friend had some Battletech minis and old WEG Star Wars minis. Later, I branched out to just about anything going.

It's always the miniatures for me. Rules are ... eh, it's easier to write house rules than it is to sculpt and cast my own miniatures. Having said that, what's kept me coming back to GW games are the settings. Nothing else can really compete with the sheer longevity and thus depth of the setting except Battletech and the D&D settings, simply because the other games haven't had nearly so many words written by some many different people about them. I like the Warmachine and Infinity settings, but I find Infinity especially rather ... bland; all I know about the factions is a few pages of background in the rulebooks, a column of text for each unit. I don't really know anything about what goes on in a Human Sphere world that doesn't involve fighting. Hopefully the RPG will expand this, but since my friend's Kickstarter pledge is still held up for some reason, I don't know yet.

I was tempted and did.

Played 40k since 3rd, where I only played one or two games. Sat on the minis through several moves and finally decided to sell them to get other hobby related items. I'm 40 now and thinking about coming back to 40k. I really wanted to try fantasy out but they killed that and replaced it with something I just can't quite bring myself to be interested in.

I started with Mage Knight, then moved to 40k, then to Warmachine, then to X-Wing (Which I still play), but I miss the hobby aspects of 40k.

I really like Warhammer, but I've played a bunch of other games possibly too long to list here because a friend of mine has a hobby of buying rules for games and then making prototypes. It's kind of neat to be exposed to all sorts of weird games and then coming back to Warhammer. It makes me wonder what the GW designers occasionally play. Crooked Dice's 7TV in particular seems like it was an inspiration for AoS and 40k 8th edition, although it's descended from the Doctor Who Miniatures Game which was a Warhammer-style action-rpg.

I really do jones for 40k though, for some reason.

My own Titanomachina is something I've made to try and capture that feeling of wanting to play again.

My reasons for continuing with GW despite the games itself not being solid:

* I have a 20+ year collection. A LOT of money sunk into my models. A LOT of time sunk into my models hobbying them. Starting over with a different line is disheartening. I have a huge investment in my GW models and I don't want to just discard them.

* Players. Like you hear everywhere, I can get in a game of AOS or 40k whenever I want. I can't get in a game of most anything else without having to put a huge amount of time and effort.

I am going to be getting into Para Bellum conquest though because I like the models quite a bit.

9th age is the game I play most often, I go to tournaments for it and have several armies for it, all my old fantasy armies went there.

I think the majority of us here started with Games Workshops games initially - and who didnt really? They where readily available and everyone knew about them. Of course, we spent money on them and then eventually some of us moved on. The big problem GW always had was that it relied on its IP to attract and retain players, but at least the games where fun back then, and diverse in nature. Sadly these days GW is catering less and less to the hobbyist and more and more to the normie and the child, alienating the traditional target audience, and pushing away more mature newcomers.
Myself, I started back when Fantasy was Fantasy, but the prices pushed me away when I learnt of other game systems which where cheaper. These days I retain my GW stuff for fun and the memories, but that is it. Other games such as Infinity, Battletech, Kings of War and Bolt Action all fill my wargaming urge without robbing my pocket or forcing me to play at one braincell level (do not try to defend it, AoS and 40K 8th are both braindead games with no tactical depth at all. I have played both.), so they do me well.

 Arbitrator wrote:
I'd argue the biggest reason for GW's success is that wargames require other people to play with and the massive cost to get into and maintain them. GW's market saturation comes in large part because they're what 95% of people began with - outside of historicals who don't really 'count' as they're more their own, separate thing - so will always have something tying them back to their products. mostly 40k. This creates the effect where people don't dare step out of GW's circle because, well, there's either nobody else to play that new game with or they paid too much money on their GW armies. In the UK I've found this to be a huge problem because Games Workshop stores make this even worse. 8th Edition has pretty much wiped out anything else where and AoS' sudden insurgency hasn't helped either. Why would people spend money on Warmahordes and Legion when all that people are playing is 40k?

This brings me to my directly reply. Trust me, I'd love to see the diversity of games in such abundance that the US has. I'd avoid GW products like the plague, but I enjoy wargaming too much. Luckily I got most of my Imperial Guard before I turned on them, so it's not too bad. Unfortunately there's not much of a choice where I live.

Where exactly do you play? If you're in the Vienna area - there are quite a few people who are willing and able to play interesting things. (which sounds much more dubious than it's supposed to be ).



I mostly play non-GW games these days. Tons of different stuff, but the general theme seems to be "nothing what comes with its own range of figures". I feel that rules by actual "indie" publishers work better for what I'm looking for in a game, and I just feel too old for the whole "rules and minis from one manufacturer who lives off mini sales" hamsterwheel. I have my fantasy collections, I have my sci-fi collections, I have a bunch of historical collections. Of course I enjoy GW games too. Played some Gorkamorka few years ago - had a great time. Played 8th edition 40k - for what 40k aims to do it works fine and is good fun. Played Kings of War - for what it aims to do [be a Warhammer stand-in] it seems to work OK. It really is a very Mantic thing, that Kings of War. I played Lost Patrol and we had a very fun evening trying to fix it. Played some games of Space Hulk last year: I can see why it's considered one of GW's best games. Two years ago I got into Blood Bowl. What a clever, clever game. I really suck at it. Heck, I even played several scenarios of Deathwatch:Overkill. GW's really good at being GW right now. Which is nice and cool. If GW do well I'm happy. My own gaming interests lie elsewhere at this point in time. Rules sets which aren't written to sell figures and written in a mindset and based on understandings I'm interested in. Too Fat Lardies, Sam Mustafa, Ganesha Games are the three which got me covered mostly these days. Great fun.


Basically it's like it's always been - on the one hand there's GW and those who use the same marketing strategy, and those who don't. One chooses what one likes and is happy.

I loved Warmachine/Hordes (I still feel it's a superior rule system), but the meta out here died an ugly death due to player drama.

Also really enjoy Team Yankee, but the closest meta for it in 45 minutes away.

Warhammer 40k isn't the best system, but it's creeping up towards the top 5 and its so damn easy to find a game when you want one.

I like mantics Kings of War, but don't have room to add all those fantasy models to my collections.

I like Warmahordes. I really wish my friends (long time 40k players) would give it a shot, but they have their armies they like and don't want to invest in a new game.

The store I like to go to has their Warmahordes night on Fridays, but they tend to be busy for me, so I rarely get to play it. But that's the game that has my passion and my paycheque right now.

I only "play" 40k. I put play in quotation marks because I really don't play it as often as I like, and haven't for several years.

After becoming a parent, starting a business, buying a home, and living in the middle of a VERY rural state, finding time and opponents for any game is a chore. 40k is simply the one I know I can count on to always be there for me.

Now, I've dabbled in Heroclix and Magic the Gathering in the past. I just only ever got to play once every 6 months or so, and it seems the game moves on without you. The problem was that the "pay to win" thing really got to me with Magic. Even if you got people to play against your outdated cards, your old deck never stands a chance against a new one. I didn't feel like pulping a majority of my deck to stay relevant.


I also have rule from Mantic for Warpath. Decent rules, but not a single game with them, as literally no one within 100 miles wants to play it. Trust me, I've looked.

Now, if you are talking models, I likely have one of the largest 40k collections in the state, and likely the whole Midwest. As long as a model looks cool and fits aesthetically I have no qualms about including it in a 40k army. I am used models from Warhammer Fantasy, AoS, Warmachine, Void, Warpath, Dreamforge Games, DUST, and many others. It's a super huge investment though.

Now, if there was ever a time where I could use my 40k models in another game, it had a decent rules set, and it was popular enough to find opponents, I'd give it a try in a heartbeat.

I deviated from GW briefly with Star Wars Legion and barely played that before losing interest. Not that it's a bad game, it's just i'm feeling the SW fatigue right now and the lack of variety just pains me. My Necromunda gangers feel very personal and individual and with games like SW legion or FFG games in general I just don't feel that attachment to anything.

I am kind of cautious of GW still cause they have no problem dropping or removing whole lines/ranges of models or even dropping games from production entirely if they *feel like it*.

I did come really close to getting into bolt action, but I don't know anyone who plays it and I don't know if I have the energy to try and jumpstart a whole club or something for a game nobody plays.

Funny, I was just thinking ealier today that it has been a while since I purchased a non-GW miniature.

I love smaller skirmish games so neither AoS nor 40k are really my cuppa. But with Shadow War, Necromunda, and the upcoming new version of Kill Team, it's like falling in love all over again. Unfortunately, AoS Skirmish is not on par with any of those games on the 40k side of the house. But I have enjoyed the new WHQ games. I am hoping GW will eventually revisit AoS Skirmish.

Prior to 2016, my miniatures game purchases were almost exclusively non-GW. Now it's back to the reverse!

Played X-Wing and Imperial Assault for a while, but the deluge of cards, tokens and cardboard nonsense just drained the fun. FFG power creep also makes even 7th "Formation" Ed. 40K look like chess, so there's that.

I also had a bit of Mantic stuff like Dreadball and Deadzone a few years back, but I suppose GW's plan of getting people like me back with re-releases of Blood Bowl and Necromunda worked for me.

So yeah, back to my roots and largely playing just GW stuff atm.

 Manchu wrote:
Funny, I was just thinking ealier today that it has been a while since I purchased a non-GW miniature.

The last non-GW miniatures I bought were the JSA army box for Infinity. Ever since Infinity came out, I've bought every Yu Jing release (and every Morat release, until they redesigned them), but recently, I haven't bought anything since the Hsien with Multi-Rifle model; I've not played since the first Beasts of War online campaign, so what's the point? I've bought nothing for Warmachine bar the rulebooks since 2nd edition came out, I drifted away from X-Wing and Armada was a disappointment and most of the new "boutique" miniatures games have no appeal, so back to the old stalwarts it is. It's so much easier now to just paint a small unit I like the look of and add it to my army.

For me personally GW hasn't even been a competitor in the wargames arena for over 10 years.
Thanks to its stagnation and very aggressive fanbase. I've played and enjoyed and still love dozens upon dozens of wargaming systems that I would of ignored otherwise.

I still try and paint GW models though. But it's extremely boring.
I've had 3 primaris sitting on my desk for 3 months now eith 1 sort of finished. And in comparison in that time I've painted 30 WWII infantry and 5 tanks.

From my perspective I started drifting away from GW when they abandoned Specialist Games but kept with WFB because I did enjoy the game and background (especially the older parts). When the writing was on the wall for WFB there was one last splurge on this.

Since then the only thing that really has interested me and kept something going to GW is the new specialist games so Blood Bowl, Necromunda, Space Hulk etc (not the Warhammer Quest garbage though). I also tend to pick up the scenery because it tends to be better than a lot of the other types available. I also tend to pick up any Made to Order stuff that I might have missed. A few bits on LoTR and 40k as well but nothing major.

GW in my opinion have moved away from traditional wargaming to more 'superficial' type gaming and their target audience has changed to younger adults/teenagers (we only have to look at the recent youtube videos to see that they are aiming at). The models whilst technically excellent lack 'character' in my view and I've tend to come to the view that when you are playing a game you rarely see the technical excellence anyway.

On the other hand since specialist games was dropped, I've picked up many other games. All Quiet on the Martian Front, Dropfleet Commander, Beyond the Gates of Antares, Xwing, Armada and starting Fallout shortly. I also mooch around ebay looking for any Specialist games bargains that I missed out on.

Although 40k is the game I play the most I do quite like to play other systems.
One current favourite of mine is SAGA, simple ruleset with a huge depth, easy to learn and really fun. Lately have been playing it nearly as regularly as 40k.
Besides that I occasionally also play Infinity, and used to play Warmahordes before the local meta died.

Anyway, if anything the main reason why I play mostly 40k is not because of any particular loyalty to GW but because it's easier to get opponents and lack of free time to play multiple systems regularly . (And dont get me wrong I do enjoy 40k a lot too)

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Played X-Wing for a while, but found the constant new cards not to my taste.

Still a good game, just not for me.

Other than that, local scene is pretty much just GW, with the occasional hand of Magic.

This is exactly where I am. I got into 40k because several friends of mine played 40K and nobody I know anywhere near me plays anything else wargame wise. We have 3 game shops relatively close to me, but the only wargame that's played at any of them that's not GW is X-wing and, while I loved that game initially, the power creep (or explosion) has really turned me off to it - not to mention that I don't really like a lot of the new ships and the classic ones just aren't very good any more. I find I play a lot more Pathfinder and Magic than wargaming at this point, but I still love 8E 40k and play when I can.

 djones520 wrote:
I'm a big GW guy, but I have dabbled in other systems. My biggest departure is with Battlefront. I used to play Flames of War, but have given that up. I'm really getting into Team Yankee now, and most of my buying money will be going into expanding those armies.

Same, but FoW 4th killed the game. I don't like the Team Yankee cards/ruleset. And went back to 40k after skipping much of 6th and all of 7th edition. Used to play WHFB, went to KoW when AoS killed that as well.

I originally played WH40K (and Space Hulk) back in the 90s because friends at school did. Nobody played non-GW games. Now I'm back, but fitting in wargaming around work and family life means there's no time for anything other than WH40K.

Around 5th edition Warhammer 40K I moved on to other games..... but even worse I moved onto creating my own games!

I still play a lot of those, but also play a lot of smaller indie or one-off rule book games. I love the Osprey Wargaming Series of rules as it gives me a lot of genres, styles, and games to play.

I really do not expect to ever go back to GW EXCEPT for Blood Bowl (or Aeronautica Imperialis if it came back in Epic scale). I have no interest in 40K/AOS games.