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 DanceOfSlaanesh wrote:
Yeah there is a way.

You can carve your figures in wood. Painting them with natural pigments and make terrain in natural air dry clay.

Only if its locally sources

otherwise think of the resources used to transport said eco friendly materials.

(im being semi sarcastic here. there is no real point to being super green outside of the normal stuff like recycling packaging, possibly sprue and dont use literal death chemicals and dumping stripped brake fluid down the storm drain)

Bahaha...

You're posting this on a computer and your concerned about the environment? Basically no.. nothing in Morden societys are environmentally responsible.

You're basically going to have to stop existing to stop being destructive. Everything contributes, everyone is culpable.

It's insanity to think that aultraism will clean any blood off anyones hands.

We're all going straight to hell together. Everyone of us.

This thread suddenly became relevant again:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/08/09/9th-aug-a-real-life-solar-enginegw-homepage-post-2fw-homepage-post-4/

I don't know what makes me happier - the fact that they posted about this or the subtle reference to a certain small american town that accused solar panels of 'draining the sun'.

 posermcbogus wrote:
I'm sure I'm not the only one here who is a bit worried about the environment...

I am as well, but only the human environment. There is no other environment that matters to us.

In Korea, we get pretty regular "bad pollution" days, where clouds of fine yellow dust sweep through, sometimes so thick you can actually see the stuff. A number of scientists have suggested that the ongoing 'global' heatwave is a result of man-made climate change, and ecosystems across the planet are being decimated to make way for industry, agriculture and housing.

The planet isn't being decimated. The planet is a rock. The only decimation that would matter is the decimation of the human environment, and that isn't happening.

Humans are one of the few animals that modify their environment for survival. You're experiencing it. Best thing you can do to avoid the South Korean advancement in your town/city is to move to a place with less pollution.

With literal islands of plastic refuse forming in the oceans, is there a way for me to play with my silly little plastic men, and also sleep at night?

Yes. You aren't responsible for the tons of trash pumped out into the pacific ocean by the Chinese government.

Keep playing with your figures.

Don't get me wrong, I love the hobby, but are there ways of collecting, modeling, painting etc. that if nothing else kind of 'break even' with regards to pollution?
Have any miniatures companies ever addressed this issue? Do you think a big toy-making giant like GW would be willing to cut back, say, on packaging or something?
Or will I have to tell my grandkids before they leave to fight as child-soldiers over the last frozen bodies of unpolluted water "No, but really, the tactical marines set was really good, like, the design was so simple, and yet the parts were just super versatile, like you could do almost anything with that box it was so good, and...."

Cheers for looking!

Don't worry about your grandkids. Worry about yourself, your happiness and success. They'll worry about themselves. That's how life works.

Keep pushing your little plastic men and enjoy life. Don't be sold this anti-human philosophy of "environmentalism".

Just be as environmentally responsible as reasonably possible in every aspect of your life.

Work to cut down waste and plastics where you can - IE, buying food with less plastic packaging, or products which are eco friendly. Recycle everything you possibly can. Don't waste water. Walk and cycle where possible. Don't cut down trees.

The same stuff for respecting the environment applies to every aspect of life.

 stanman wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:

 Agamemnon2 wrote:
The most environmentally conscious thing you can do is not to have pets or start a family. Living a shorter life also helps.

Killing people works even better.

Make sure to eat them afterwards, that helps reduces the environmental impact on raising animals for slaughter. Cows produce tons of methane and consume huge amount of food and water resources. Plus if you stick to murdering victims in your local neighborhood it'll further reduce your carbon footprint even more.


While that's a joke, our pollution problems are happening because our population is growing too quickly and as a collective we don't seem to want to do anything about that. Sadly war is one of the few effective ways to deal with over population and strain on resources, at least in the short term. Two world wars killed tens of millions in Europe which probably delayed a huge population boom for a time, but people keep on having packs of kids and don't think about what that does in the long term. Ultimately we're going to hit a critical mass event where we starve and poison the majority of the population out of existence and have a lot of wars over depleted resources.

Population has nothing to do with it, the problem is our economic system. The earth is more than capable of supporting the human population at current levels and current levels of growth, but the technological advances that would help are only being introduced very slowly because they're "not commercially viable"(ie, they won't make enough money to satisfy the rentiers who'd end up owning it all), and a lot of the actions we should be collectively taking as a society are subject to a huge propaganda blitz on behalf of corporate capital invested in the status quo - climate change skepticism doesn't come out of nowhere, nor does the friendly attitude many governments have towards non-renewable industries. Not to mention the gigantic inefficiencies of the great and mighty markets cause us to waste *vast* amounts of natural resources over-producing a lot of stuff for the developed world that just gets binned, or which is discarded far more quickly than it needs to be because it's more profitable to drive people into a loop of "upgrades" than it is to produce products that last a long time.

All he has to do is to get in on a local environmental program to pick up trash in an area, and direct action conservation stuff. None of it has anything to do with wargaming.

 Rubenite wrote:
Genuine answer: Go Vegan.

Others are right to suggest that the effort would be better focused on other areas of your life, and one of the greatest positive impacts you can have on the environment is to reduce/eliminate your consumption of animal products.

In fact, the United Nations published a report in 2010 that urged 'A global shift towards a vegan diet is vital to save the world from hunger, fuel poverty and the worst impacts of climate change.'

Don't want to derail your thread so feel free to PM me for advice / any questions.

The main problem IS population.

See https://www.dw.com/image/39688212_401.png

Sure, even if we cut the worlds population in half we would need to take actions, but then at least we would have a chance.

So, I suppose the real answer is "DO PLAY GAMES, instead of starting a family"

:-)

Thought I might as well actually reply to this thread.

So like, I'll absolutely admit that I'm not the most well educated on this subject.

I started thinking about this whole thing because I saw some dumb article somewhere about how "It's fine to buy stuff off a business you boycott for moral reasons if it saves you a few quid", and my immediate thought was "That's not how boycotting works." (not that I do a ton of boycotts or anything)
A lot of people have raised the very valid point that governments are in a much better position of power to make meaningful change with regards to protecting the planet.
However, like a fair few people here, I also subscribe to the idea that just because I'm not as powerful as the Chinese government or Shell Petroleum, I can also do minor things to help, because, at least in my dumb opinion, it's better than declaring myself exempt and doing nothing.

Again, just as I'm not too smart, I'm no saint when it comes to environmental stuff in my day-to-day life. It's something I'm aware of, and kind of working on making better.

This train of thought brought me to Warhammer stuff. I'm concerned about the environment, and think that unfettered plastic consumption (and subsequent disposal of) is in a very bad state currently. So why do I contribute to that for fun?

I was curious to see what other people thought, and how they rationalize any similar thoughts. obviously there are a ton of things that I do way more often that are significantly worse. I certainly agree with the "hobby stuff is a drop in the ocean" opinion that a lot of you have put forward. But just because I do worse things, that surely doesn't absolve the smaller bad things that I do?
What I'm not saying is that "if you like wargaming you are a bad person", or "I'm so good because I'm going to quit playing with silly space men for the fishies". It's just something I was wondering about, haven't been able to come to any conclusions of my own.

greyknight12 wrote:The OP seems to have latched onto the "plastic is bad" idea and taken it to the uneducated level that people use to make environmentalists look stupid.
If you aren't throwing your minis in the ocean, they aren't ending up as an island.

Now, again, I'm not the most savvy about this stuff, but there's "good plastic"? I thought it was more a case of all plastic is bad, some plastic is more bad than others.
Landfill isn't a perfect alternative to the sea, and there's no assurance that some of it doesn't trickle down into the ocean.

BuFFo wrote:Best thing you can do to avoid the South Korean advancement in your town/city is to move to a place with less pollution.
Don't worry about your grandkids. Worry about yourself, your happiness and success. They'll worry about themselves. That's how life works.

I live in the countryside. A friend of mine moved here from Seoul because, in their words "there's much less pollution". I can show you this one video I have after leaving a window in my classroom ajar, and all the industrial muck that collected on the windowsill after maybe like all of 3 hours, if you'd like to get a better sense of how bad it is here.
And I do kind of wish that my grandparents and parents hadn't been so committed to the ideal of "two large freezers, at least one car, with air conditioning, a huge refrigerator, readily available intercontinental flights, a washing machine, a dryer, at least one large shopping mall in every town, produce available year round in convenient supermarkets, etc." along with most people in the West over the last 70〜ish years.

Well, there are varying levels of taking on environmental responsibility.

I think the biggest no-no is the amount of fuel used for transporting or getting to the goods for our hobby.
I means of licensing 3D printing on-site would be a good means of reducing that (other than just getting the printing mediums and paints or in future: print with pigments?).
But that may be a long time coming so is not possible at this time.

Packaging.
I use the cellophane wrapping as liner inside my airbrush spray booth.
The boxes themselves, is card-stock like cereal boxes and can be used for building terrain.
I tend to cut them flat and store as needed.

Leftover sprue:
A ton of use for that stuff.
I cut good long lengths of it for terrain/scratch build or reinforcement material for inside models or underside of floor joins, etc.
I use an old crank meat grinder on the largest hole screen to cut-up the remaining stuff for rubble.
I had used small off-cuts of sprue and dropping them into paint pots as mixing agitators to no ill effect I can find.
I even used the numbering on the sprues, cut them off and use them to label equipment or doors on terrain.

Paints:
Old paint pots work great for holders to stick your models on while you paint them.
Adding some "matt medium" and a touch of distilled water to keep old paints useable so i tend to not have them dry-out. I still have some old GW screw cap and white flat cap flip tops from decades ago still useable.
BTW i use the large distilled water bottles with a few sheets of paper towel to spray my airbrush into for cleaning and clearing them (Cut tapered hole in lid and have sponge glued covering other hole in lid).

Glue:
I typically find Tamiya green cap glue down to the last 1/5th tends to not work well or the integrated brush does not reach. Take extra bits of sprue and add bits at a time and they dissolve you can create a form of gap-filler / green stuff (now grey).
The Tamiya glass square glue pots work great for re-usable water containers and i have used them when I mix-up inks/shade and can use the integrated brush to brush the stuff on, looks rather cool too when you clean the labels off.

Blister Packs:
I typically used those for mixing epoxy into.
The old ones were a good source for sponges to line whatever partitioned containers you use for your miniatures.
Sponges are good for sponge painting as well for getting that corroded look.

Brushes:
Life is: fine / normal work, shade application, drybrush, basing / gravel painting, paint transfer brush (airbrush or pallet), glue applicator (white or otherwise).

Miniature containers:
Egg cartons work well.
Banker's boxes.

Army books and lists:
epub based books and lists on an app and no trees will be harmed in your gaming pursuits.
(Make sure you use a solar charger where possible for your phone).

Bad model:
Break it up into terrain ruins or retire a model as a statue in some terrain.
Strip it down and use it for trying out a new paint theme or keep for new players to try painting and they can keep it.

Quit the hobby:
Sell it all (re-use), there is someone who will want your old stuff.

I am sure there is more but really in the scheme of things a tabletop gamer probably does more harm to the environment from the methane he gives off than what the hobby pursuits do.

Crazy_swede wrote:

 Rubenite wrote:
Genuine answer: Go Vegan.

Others are right to suggest that the effort would be better focused on other areas of your life, and one of the greatest positive impacts you can have on the environment is to reduce/eliminate your consumption of animal products.

In fact, the United Nations published a report in 2010 that urged 'A global shift towards a vegan diet is vital to save the world from hunger, fuel poverty and the worst impacts of climate change.'

Don't want to derail your thread so feel free to PM me for advice / any questions.

The main problem IS population.

See https://www.dw.com/image/39688212_401.png

Sure, even if we cut the worlds population in half we would need to take actions, but then at least we would have a chance.

So, I suppose the real answer is "DO PLAY GAMES, instead of starting a family"

:-)

This. TBH what we need is a new massive war, war was natures way of keeping our numbers in check for the most part
The problem is we are now actively avoiding war, our advances mean we suffer few deaths at birth or in the young age and we live longer, but noone is willing to do anything like, say, put a cap on birth rates and enforce it. As a species we need to reduce our numbers. We need to do it soon as well.

PS, Vegan is really not the way to go. Baring the toxic effect to men of regularly intaking large quantities of soya, and the overall drop in health and mass that such a diet can produce, it simply is not nice. Not trying to knock other peoples way of life here, but vegan food tastes like gak. And the "cheese" is just vile.

These answers don't make any sense at all. What really needs to happen is - nothing. Light your cigar made out of plastic game sprue with a 100.00 bill and snort the ground up plastic and huff paint chips.
With your feet up on two little factory child workers, you free them up from polluting the environment, and let someone else worry about the problem. Problem solved, problem stays solved.

 master of ordinance wrote:

PS, Vegan is really not the way to go. Baring the toxic effect to men of regularly intaking large quantities of soya, and the overall drop in health and mass that such a diet can produce, it simply is not nice. Not trying to knock other peoples way of life here, but vegan food tastes like gak. And the "cheese" is just vile.

You may wish to do some fact-checking before you continue to regurgitate such utter nonsense. Here's a study from a scientific journal that indicates that you actually absorb estrogen from drinking cow's milk, plus it reduces your production of testosterone. Phytoestrogens found in plants are entirely different to mammalian physiology and are only named as such as they share similar traits. There's no scientific evidence that they have any effect on the human body whatsoever.

Not sure what mysterious "drop in health" you're referring to, but the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics, the largest body of nutritional experts in the entire world, would seem to disagree with you. As would the British Nutrition Foundation and the NHS. Appropriately planned vegan diets are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and appropriate for all stages of the life cycle, including pregnancy. Plant-based diets are more environmentally sustainable than diets rich in animal products because they use fewer natural resources and are associated with much less environmental damage.

But feel free to provide sources to back up any of your wild claims.

Back on topic, a study from the University of Oxford this year concluded that avoiding meat and dairy is "single biggest way" to reduce your impact on Earth. This is the most comprehensive analysis to date of the damage farming does to the planet.

“A vegan diet is probably the single biggest way to reduce your impact on planet Earth, not just greenhouse gases, but global acidification, eutrophication, land use and water use,” said Joseph Poore, at the University of Oxford, UK, who led the research. “It is far bigger than cutting down on your flights or buying an electric car,” he said, as these only cut greenhouse gas emissions.

Seriously OP and everyone else reading this, start by trying out some plant-based milks on your cereal and trying one vegan meal a week - it may seem daunting but you'll be amazed at just how easy it can be.

I have cut down on meat (not milk sadly) consumption since 2012 when I suffered my second (and last) gout attack.

Since then I eat meat about 2 - 3 times a week, which for me was a dramatic change considering I ate meat 1 - 2 times a day. Some weeks I over do it and start to worry, but I am actually really happy with my diet change. Although I do get annoyed when I have a bad piece of meat, as it eats into my meat quota just as much as good meat does.

Still loving milk in my coffee though.

I tried vegan - I almost died from sanctimony toxicity and having to constantly tell people I was one made me sound like one of those "crossfit" freaks.

I settle for cutting back on red meat to 1-2 times a week. My vege intake has always been on the 5-6 serves per day.

I haven't had milk in coffee in decades.
Soy milk or cheese goes straight through me like soooo much saturated fat (cow juice and cheese made from it do not - yoghurt does, though).

Can't have shellfish (gout trigger) but beer is fine.

As for being an "environmentally responsible gamer" - no, it isn't possible to be one. Not if you choose to play one of the "big names".

Not unless you make ALL the playing pieces yourself from fallen bits of dead tree and bone scavenged from your local area, dyed with local plant and animal products, go back to living in a cave and a subsistence life. On the bright side, nobody on the net would then have to read posts about "being an environmentally responsible gamer" since you wouldn't be using technology more advanced than knapped flint (so no internets anyway).

Game with plastic meeples? The carbon footprint just making that product and getting it to you is something you won't mitigate in your own lifetime. While you can "do your part" you won't realistically reduce any of that footprint.

 Rubenite wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
Back on topic, a study from the University of Oxford this year concluded that avoiding meat and dairy is "single biggest way" to reduce your impact on Earth. This is the most comprehensive analysis to date of the damage farming does to the planet.

Or . . .

https://www.elementascience.org/articles/10.12952/journal.elementa.000116/

Upshot: Vegan food cultivation does not make use of perennial cropland and therefore produces less food compared to diets that do make user of this land for growing crops to feed animals.

There is a lot of conflicting information about veganism and confirmation bias is always a risk with these sort of discussions (on both sides). Your best bet is to ensure you eat local and unprocessed; eggs from the farm next door are far more sustainable than fruit that has been imported from the other side of the planet (and thus carries with it the associated carbon footprint).

So, if you could grow food crops on a piece of land, it's better you do that than use it as pasture for cows. On the other hand, if it's a rocky hillside that you can't farm, might as well plonk some sheep up there and eat 'em.

Yeah pretty much. Eating less meat is a great idea, but eating no meat is a very inefficient way of making use of available land.

Goats/sheep can graze in places where it would be impossible to grow food for human consumption. If you stop eating these animals its not as if the land can simply be switched over to soy production.

On the other hand, if the available arable land can support the population, then it'd be better again just to leave the rest of it alone. Just because you can put a sheep farm there doesn't mean you need to.

True, and if we had a substantial food surplus that would be a great idea.

But we don't.

Plus sustainable grazing is (weirdly) good for the environment and can prevent climate change (if you do it right . . .).

http://www.regenerativeagriculturedefinition.com/

(Of course wild deer or something could do this job too . . . but something would need to eat them to keep it sustainable)

Unfortunately there's a serious lack of political will in the world to do anything drastic enough to have a positive impact on reducing the amount of environmental destruction and pollution that goes on.

I really disagree with the onus to do anything about it being put on individuals. Not to say there isn't anything we can and perhaps should do but the effects will be negligible in the grand scheme. So I seriously think you shouldn't let yourself feel too anxious about it.

Things that spring to mind that you can do:

1. Prime models by brush rather than with aerosol, I've done it in the past, works okay but is more effort.

2. Upcycle, wargaming gives loads of opportunities for this, get into building terrain from scratch.

3. Focus your concerns on something that can have a greater impact.

Honestly, this is a great subject and it's good to see that people are being environmentally conscious about their hobbies.

The plastic / metals used in Wargaming are definitely not good for the environment. That said, it's not terrifically difficult to offset one's own personal use - recycle your sprues / old minis and avoid spray aerosols that contain flourocarbons are probably the best steps someone could take.

That said, the amount of waste created by the hobby isn't that significant compared to lifestyle choices of the people who actually play 40k. This carbon calculator spells out the impact of one's own home energy use, driving habits, use of transportation, and more. It's eye-opening to think about how simple changes to the way we live can have a big impact on the environment.

As a community of gamers, if we committed to make changes to the way we live and get around, we could have a huge collective impact on the world around us. Imagine what would happen if there was a broad effort within the community towards sustainability...

I mostly collect vintage miniatures these days. It's good to recycle.

Building your own terrain also helps take a few scraps of rubbish from landfill.

I doubt if we could be totally environmentally friendly but there are always ways to incorporate the ideology into what we do.

There are always ways to make things more sustainable.

That could be use the bus, bike, walk when you go into town rather than a car, although less if an issue if solely electric.

In the UK you can also leave the packaging at the GW store. You are entitled to leave this if you don't want it. People already do this with supermarkets and because of the cost of disposal in the uk it drives companies to use cheaper recyclable packaging.

Whether metals or plastics is better is uncertain. Metals can generally be smelted down an infinite number of times. So although the upfront costs can be higher, if they are continually recycled then they can be better than plastics or resin which are once used and then thrown away. Plastics and resin also break easier and hence are more likely to be thrown away.

Other things can include not buying GWs textured bases. These use plastic beads, the types being banned in cosmetics (could be the same for other textured paints but am not sure). The beads will eventually break off and get into the environment - Instead use sand. For brushes use hair but not plastic based hairs - although check the animal as some can be treated unfairly. Horse hair is probably best from this perspective.

Textured bases? You mean their textured paints for bases?

Considering you are boasting plastic industry which is made out of petrol, I'm not sure lol. Noble intention however. (bye bye Hulot )

Of course you can be a wargamer and eco-friendly guy besides, but the production of plastc soldiers, the kilometers you might have to travel for a game, a whole range of spray prducts are not actually "responsible". Well at least I guess that if 20 millions poeple do that in the end it won't be.