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2018/07/29 10:28:33
Subject: Is it possible to be an environmentally responsible tabletop wargamer?
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Crushing Black Templar Crusader Pilot
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I'm sure I'm not the only one here who is a bit worried about the environment...
In Korea, we get pretty regular "bad pollution" days, where clouds of fine yellow dust sweep through, sometimes so thick you can actually see the stuff. A number of scientists have suggested that the ongoing 'global' heatwave is a result of man-made climate change, and ecosystems across the planet are being decimated to make way for industry, agriculture and housing.
With literal islands of plastic refuse forming in the oceans, is there a way for me to play with my silly little plastic men, and also sleep at night?
Don't get me wrong, I love the hobby, but are there ways of collecting, modeling, painting etc. that if nothing else kind of 'break even' with regards to pollution?
Have any miniatures companies ever addressed this issue? Do you think a big toy-making giant like GW would be willing to cut back, say, on packaging or something?
Or will I have to tell my grandkids before they leave to fight as child-soldiers over the last frozen bodies of unpolluted water "No, but really, the tactical marines set was really good, like, the design was so simple, and yet the parts were just super versatile, like you could do almost anything with that box it was so good, and...."
Cheers for looking!
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2018/07/29 11:13:47
Subject: Is it possible to be an environmentally responsible tabletop wargamer?
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Potent Possessed Daemonvessel
Why Aye Ya Canny Dakkanaughts!
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Making a blood sacrifice to the four in exchange for a more environmentally friendly world is the best we can hope for.
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Ghorros wrote:The moral of the story: Don't park your Imperial Knight in a field of Gretchin carrying power tools.
Marmatag wrote:All the while, my opponent is furious, throwing his codex on the floor, trying to slash his wrists with safety scissors. |
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2018/07/29 11:18:38
Subject: Re:Is it possible to be an environmentally responsible tabletop wargamer?
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Drop Trooper with Demo Charge
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Wargaming is a hobby, one that isn't really needed in the grand scheme of things and can only be considered a waste of resources, a luxury. If you are that serious in your concerns with regards to the enviromental impact there is no real justification you can have for it and no real way to off set it considering the materials used.
As for packaging most companys have already stopped using expanded polystyrene in packaging so other than encouraging them to use cardboard (which the use of can be offset to an extent) instead of clampacks and getting them to stop shrink wrapping stuff (which they won't do) there's not a lot that could be changed really.
Personally I look at the above and think... Well its fun though! and get on with my day
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2018/07/29 11:23:48
Subject: Is it possible to be an environmentally responsible tabletop wargamer?
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Pulsating Possessed Space Marine of Slaanesh
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Yeah there is a way.
You can carve your figures in wood. Painting them with natural pigments and make terrain in natural air dry clay.
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2018/07/29 11:37:51
Subject: Is it possible to be an environmentally responsible tabletop wargamer?
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Blood Angel Terminator with Lightning Claws
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They sort of have cut back on packing
You used to get cellophane wrap, card sleeve, card box, and a polystyrene tray which was good for making scenery then finally lead minis.
Now you you get cellophane, box and a couple of ABS sprues
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DV8 wrote:Blood Angels Furioso Dreadnought should also be double-fisted.
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2018/07/29 11:59:49
Subject: Is it possible to be an environmentally responsible tabletop wargamer?
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Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon
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They’re also squeezing more into the sprue. And the move to plastic from white metal arguably helps.
Whilst plastic of course comes from oil, mining for the bits and bobs that go into metal minis is arguably more damaging, because of its impact on the immediate local environment, from strip mining to run off.
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2018/07/29 12:47:15
Subject: Is it possible to be an environmentally responsible tabletop wargamer?
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Wicked Warp Spider
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Your concerns are focused on the least environmental unfriendly parts of the hobby. Where most of the damage lies is logistics, not production. So while not the most ethical or legal, your best way of limiting your environmental footprint is to limit official purchases which have to travel around the world a few times to minimum and recast as much as you can from the most locally produced materials. Or as DanceOfSlaanesh suggested, carve everything yourself from natural, sustainable, biodegradable materials, but even sculpting everything from local green stuff equivalent will have smaller footprint than plastics. In case of AoS you can also play Sylvaneth with actual bonsai trees
As to metal minis, mining and drilling - soft metals are highly recyclable and volume required for a single army is pretty low, so you can cast your entire army from a small heap of old electronic junk if you recycle solder. Or from those old ornamental tin cups that were popular some time ago as house decoration.
But with all that said, your hobby is so tiny part of your personal environmental footprint, that a box or ten of space marines is totally neglectable.
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2018/07/29 13:20:18
Subject: Re:Is it possible to be an environmentally responsible tabletop wargamer?
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Fixture of Dakka
West Michigan, deep in Whitebread, USA
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Frankly, I think it would be more impactful to take a hard look back at all the disposable silverware and plates/cups used in your daily life. As one example, how many gamers blow through bottles of flavored drinks while they play and then they go in the trash instead of the recycling? Hell, I watch people throw away bottles which can be returned for a deposit here.
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"By this point I'm convinced 100% that every single race in the 40k universe have somehow tapped into the ork ability to just have their tech work because they think it should." |
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2018/07/29 13:54:09
Subject: Is it possible to be an environmentally responsible tabletop wargamer?
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
UK
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Use public transport to get to/from games (it's going to produce the pollution anyway)
make a few big shopping trips a year rather than many small ones
recycle as much packaging/waste plastic etc as your local system allows
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2018/07/29 16:53:45
Subject: Re:Is it possible to be an environmentally responsible tabletop wargamer?
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Powerful Phoenix Lord
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I think, with all things, people need to consider scope and the "guilt" propaganda angle. While I'm not some eco-nut, I'm fully aware we're going down an impossible road with regards to the environment. However, if you want to make some small changes to make yourself feel better, awesome.
There are companies who recycle ABS, as in they say "send us your sprues" - but that still involves shipping them, and all the materials used in that process. Hobbying at the level most people do it is so miniscule, it's one of the places you'd want to concentrate last. As mentioned above, just make sure you recycle your bits, paint bottles (if you don't keep them), etc.
You're still buying and using products made out of plastic. However, consider your 40K army. It probably consists of less plastic than you toss away after one or two trips to the grocery store. I'd concentrate somewhere else first.
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2018/07/29 19:36:10
Subject: Is it possible to be an environmentally responsible tabletop wargamer?
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Rampaging Reaver Titan Princeps
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Recycle all your rubbish as terrain?
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"But me no buts! Our comrades get hurt. Our friends die. Falkenburg is a knight who swore an oath to serve the church and to defend the weak. He'd be the first to tell you to stop puling and start planning. Because what we are doing-at risk to ourselves-is what we have sworn to do. The West relies on us. It is a risk we take with pride. It is an oath we honour. Even when some soft southern burgher mutters about us, we know the reason he sleeps soft and comfortable, why his wife is able to complain about the price of cabbages as her most serious problem and why his children dare to throw dung and yell "Knot" when we pass. It's because we are what we are. For all our faults we stand for law and light.
Von Gherens This Rough Magic Lackey, Flint & Freer
Mekagorkalicious -Monkeytroll
2017 Model Count-71
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2018/07/29 20:00:27
Subject: Re:Is it possible to be an environmentally responsible tabletop wargamer?
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Stone Bonkers Fabricator General
We'll find out soon enough eh.
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Elbows wrote:I think, with all things, people need to consider scope and the "guilt" propaganda angle. While I'm not some eco-nut, I'm fully aware we're going down an impossible road with regards to the environment. However, if you want to make some small changes to make yourself feel better, awesome.
There are companies who recycle ABS, as in they say "send us your sprues" - but that still involves shipping them, and all the materials used in that process. Hobbying at the level most people do it is so miniscule, it's one of the places you'd want to concentrate last. As mentioned above, just make sure you recycle your bits, paint bottles (if you don't keep them), etc.
You're still buying and using products made out of plastic. However, consider your 40K army. It probably consists of less plastic than you toss away after one or two trips to the grocery store. I'd concentrate somewhere else first.
This pretty much. The eco-warrior stuff is largely a nonsense when it comes to actually affecting climate change, individuals can only do a couple of basic things that will have any meaningful impact on the problem when taken collectively. Which isn't to say it's bad or wrong, if that's your philosophy and it makes you happy have at it, but the reality is if you actually want to change things rather than just feel better, your time should be spent with political organising, lobbying, protesting etc, because it's the dreaded Big Gubb'ment that's going to fix the problem if it can be fixed; construction standards, grants for renewables installation, subsidised local public renewable power companies, emissions regulation, investment in public transport, the size of your country's research budget and what it gets spent on and so on, that's where someone needs to put their energy and effort if they want to make a difference rather than just feel like they're making a difference.
The total carbon footprint of the entire global wargames industry would likely be a drop in the ocean compared to even a single national supermarket chain's logistics network. Llamahead's suggestion would probably have a bigger impact than quitting wargaming altogether.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/29 20:01:19
I need to acquire plastic Skavenslaves, can you help?
I have a blog now, evidently. Featuring the Alternative Mordheim Model Megalist.
"Your society's broken, so who should we blame? Should we blame the rich, powerful people who caused it? No, lets blame the people with no power and no money and those immigrants who don't even have the vote. Yea, it must be their fething fault." - Iain M Banks
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"The language of modern British politics is meant to sound benign. But words do not mean what they seem to mean. 'Reform' actually means 'cut' or 'end'. 'Flexibility' really means 'exploit'. 'Prudence' really means 'don't invest'. And 'efficient'? That means whatever you want it to mean, usually 'cut'. All really mean 'keep wages low for the masses, taxes low for the rich, profits high for the corporations, and accept the decline in public services and amenities this will cause'." - Robin McAlpine from Common Weal |
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2018/07/29 20:04:29
Subject: Re:Is it possible to be an environmentally responsible tabletop wargamer?
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Devestating Grey Knight Dreadknight
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The OP seems to have latched onto the "plastic is bad" idea and taken it to the uneducated level that people use to make environmentalists look stupid.
Plastic is bad for two reason: production and disposal. Of the two, disposal is arguably the worst because plastic doesn't biodegrade. Bottled water (and other drinks) are made from a different kind of plastic than warhammer minis...GW products have more in common with LEGOs and lawn chairs. Any large plastic toy probably contains as much plastic as a small 40K army. So on the production side, unless you have already cut all plastic out of your life you aren't adding much to the global carbon footprint. You allluded to floating islands of plastic, which is the disposal side...guess what? If you aren't throwing your minis in the ocean, they aren't ending up as an island. The packaging is mostly carboard (which you can recycle really easily) and cellophane (which you can usually recycle). Don't throw away the sprues, or find somewhere that recycles that kind of plastic and you're set.
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Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment. |
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2018/07/29 23:57:47
Subject: Is it possible to be an environmentally responsible tabletop wargamer?
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Dakka Veteran
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Recycling isn't self-redeeming, though. There is still waste, not to mention the energy required to melt plastic etc. back down and reshape it. Yes, the large-scale political activism matters, but there are things individuals can do, including reducing their consumption.
For wargaming, so long as you don't throw away sprues or broken bits, and shop locally as best you can, you're probably fine.
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2018/07/30 04:13:09
Subject: Is it possible to be an environmentally responsible tabletop wargamer?
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Calculating Commissar
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The most environmentally conscious thing you can do is not to have pets or start a family. Living a shorter life also helps.
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The supply does not get to make the demands. |
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2018/07/30 17:23:45
Subject: Is it possible to be an environmentally responsible tabletop wargamer?
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Foxy Wildborne
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Agamemnon2 wrote:The most environmentally conscious thing you can do is not to have pets or start a family. Living a shorter life also helps.
Killing people works even better.
OP, I assure you that the environmental impact of a reasonable miniature collection is far less that that of the device you posted your question from.
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Posters on ignore list: 36
40k Potica Edition - 40k patch with reactions, suppression and all that good stuff. Feedback thread here.
Gangs of Nu Ork - Necromunda / Gorkamorka expansion supporting all faction. Feedback thread here. |
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2018/07/30 17:45:44
Subject: Is it possible to be an environmentally responsible tabletop wargamer?
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Powerful Phoenix Lord
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Yep, and I think it's why it's important to separate genuine envrionment impact and "guilt trip sales propaganda" when it comes to stuff like this.
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2018/07/31 00:04:47
Subject: Is it possible to be an environmentally responsible tabletop wargamer?
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Worthiest of Warlock Engineers
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OP, you mirror some of my worries
Over the past few weeks I have found myself becomeing more and more worried about the effect of plastic in the environment, especially the little plastic shavings from removing sprue lines. In fact I have started trying to catch all these offcuts and put them in the bin to ensure they do not enter the environment and contaminate my soil.
There is rumour of a bacteria that eats plastics, but until I see it I will not hold my breath.
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Free from GW's tyranny and the hobby is looking better for it
DR:90-S++G+++M++B++I+Pww205++D++A+++/sWD146R++T(T)D+
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2018/08/01 10:50:23
Subject: Is it possible to be an environmentally responsible tabletop wargamer?
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Calculating Commissar
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Try and buy 2nd hand stuff; it's already been made and doesn't need packaged again.
Similarly; try to buy stuff in person so it doesn't need packed/shipped, or buy in bulk to minimise the shipping overheads.
Plant some trees/plants to offset things. Recycle the unused plastic.
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2018/08/01 11:21:20
Subject: Is it possible to be an environmentally responsible tabletop wargamer?
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Dakka Veteran
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lord_blackfang wrote: Agamemnon2 wrote:The most environmentally conscious thing you can do is not to have pets or start a family. Living a shorter life also helps.
Killing people works even better.
Make sure to eat them afterwards, that helps reduces the environmental impact on raising animals for slaughter. Cows produce tons of methane and consume huge amount of food and water resources. Plus if you stick to murdering victims in your local neighborhood it'll further reduce your carbon footprint even more.
While that's a joke, our pollution problems are happening because our population is growing too quickly and as a collective we don't seem to want to do anything about that. Sadly war is one of the few effective ways to deal with over population and strain on resources, at least in the short term. Two world wars killed tens of millions in Europe which probably delayed a huge population boom for a time, but people keep on having packs of kids and don't think about what that does in the long term. Ultimately we're going to hit a critical mass event where we starve and poison the majority of the population out of existence and have a lot of wars over depleted resources.
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2018/08/01 16:20:19
Subject: Is it possible to be an environmentally responsible tabletop wargamer?
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Courageous Beastmaster
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Overpopulation is too simple an answer. Limit your trash is the biggest. So you've got the perfect excuse to built terrain or something like that. Don't overdo your AC when you're playing a wargame. That thing drinks energy. Use a bike rather than a car. All of these are but minor things tough (except the AC , it's a big reason the us sits on the top of so many consumption charts.) , but they do hint at the larger problems: transport , trash and energy. Automatically Appended Next Post: And yeah depending on the pet, you can have a lot of plastic if you don't have a dog.
Also since wargaming doesn't require giant fields etc. it's a fairly good hobby to have. (Unlike golf wich is a disaster if played anywhere other than Scotland or ireland).
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/08/01 16:27:50
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2018/08/05 11:02:02
Subject: Is it possible to be an environmentally responsible tabletop wargamer?
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Humorless Arbite
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master of ordinance wrote:OP, you mirror some of my worries
Over the past few weeks I have found myself becomeing more and more worried about the effect of plastic in the environment, especially the little plastic shavings from removing sprue lines. In fact I have started trying to catch all these offcuts and put them in the bin to ensure they do not enter the environment and contaminate my soil.
There is rumour of a bacteria that eats plastics, but until I see it I will not hold my breath.
Oh yes there are some bacteria that love plastic. They like to eat roads too. It's why certain infections are common from "road rash".
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Voxed from Salamander 84-24020
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2018/08/06 00:51:17
Subject: Is it possible to be an environmentally responsible tabletop wargamer?
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Sister Oh-So Repentia
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Genuine answer: Go Vegan.
Others are right to suggest that the effort would be better focused on other areas of your life, and one of the greatest positive impacts you can have on the environment is to reduce/eliminate your consumption of animal products.
In fact, the United Nations published a report in 2010 that urged 'A global shift towards a vegan diet is vital to save the world from hunger, fuel poverty and the worst impacts of climate change.'
Don't want to derail your thread so feel free to PM me for advice / any questions.
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2018/08/06 14:03:05
Subject: Is it possible to be an environmentally responsible tabletop wargamer?
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Worthiest of Warlock Engineers
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This is the worst load of horsemuck to be perpetuated on the internet. Being vegan is actually worse for the environment than having a regular diet as a lot of the soy and palm milk and stuff is farmed in areas of cleared rainforest, and done so in a non-sustainable way.
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Free from GW's tyranny and the hobby is looking better for it
DR:90-S++G+++M++B++I+Pww205++D++A+++/sWD146R++T(T)D+
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2018/08/06 14:50:22
Subject: Is it possible to be an environmentally responsible tabletop wargamer?
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Stubborn Prosecutor
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You realize the OP was on the Korean peninsula right? The pollution issues out there aren't tied to meat consumption. It's tied to a massive amount of plastic metal and rare material industrial manufacturing that is, at best, regulated only on paper.
I'm starting to suspect Vegans are like Marijuana users. After a while their lifestyle becomes the solution to everything no matter how hard you shove that square peg into that round hole.
Back on topic, Asia is one of the few places that came claim direct eco damage from the production of miniatures. You could use strictly second hand miniatures and don't use any aresol based paint products (does Korea ban CFLs like here in the states?) but I think you'd be better off reducing your carbon output in ohter parts of your life like transportation and who you elect to power than bringing it into your hobby.
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Bender wrote:* Realise that despite the way people talk, this is not a professional sport played by demi gods, but rather a game of toy soldiers played by tired, inebriated human beings.
https://www.victorwardbooks.com/ Home of Dark Days series |
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2018/08/06 14:56:38
Subject: Is it possible to be an environmentally responsible tabletop wargamer?
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Lord of the Fleet
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nou wrote:Your concerns are focused on the least environmental unfriendly parts of the hobby. Where most of the damage lies is logistics, not production. So while not the most ethical or legal, your best way of limiting your environmental footprint is to limit official purchases which have to travel around the world a few times to minimum
Absolutely - if you really care about this then buy your models from manufacturers that produce minis as close to you as possible and, ideally, from raw materials produced locally Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also a good idea, reuse is dramatically better then recycling.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/08/06 14:58:46
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2018/08/06 15:46:54
Subject: Is it possible to be an environmentally responsible tabletop wargamer?
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Fixture of Dakka
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I was just sent a set of this stuff. It would be interesting to see if it could be used for Wargame models in the future:
https://www.lego.com/en-us/aboutus/news-room/2018/march/pfp
It feels a little softer than their usual stuff, but some of that is because their plant pieces are generally more bendy by design. It's still far stiffer than other plastics that are used to make models at least.
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2018/08/06 21:16:33
Subject: Is it possible to be an environmentally responsible tabletop wargamer?
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Sister Oh-So Repentia
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master of ordinance wrote:
Being vegan is actually worse for the environment than having a regular diet as a lot of the soy and palm milk and stuff is farmed in areas of cleared rainforest, and done so in a non-sustainable way.
You're right - unsustainable soy farming is destroying the environment and rainforest - though did you know that at least 80% of all soy grown is used to feed livestock animals? When we purchase and consume animal products we are indirectly contributing to this. It is estimated that only 6% of soy grown is directly consumed by humans, mostly in Asia.
ChargerIIC wrote:
You realize the OP was on the Korean peninsula right? The pollution issues out there aren't tied to meat consumption. It's tied to a massive amount of plastic metal and rare material industrial manufacturing that is, at best, regulated only on paper.
It's easy to feel helpless and overwhelmed in the face of things that we don't have much power to change. We can write to our governments and lobby them to change manufacturing regulations but as an individual it can feel like there is not much we can do. However as consumers, we have an enormous amount of power to change things by changing what we buy at the supermarket - and it's a really empowering thought when you realize that we have the power to change things through supply and demand. Of course it's not going to magically fix things overnight, but we can end unnecessary environmentally destructive practices by eliminating the demand for them. If you're worried about plastic in the ocean, you can choose not to eat fish. Almost half of the Great Pacific Garbage Patch is made up of discarded fishing gear.
LunarSol wrote:I was just sent a set of this stuff. It would be interesting to see if it could be used for Wargame models in the future:
https://www.lego.com/en-us/aboutus/news-room/2018/march/pfp
It feels a little softer than their usual stuff, but some of that is because their plant pieces are generally more bendy by design. It's still far stiffer than other plastics that are used to make models at least.
This is so great! So by not using oil to produce the plastic there are a whole heap of environmental benefits? Lego is a great comparison to draw to Wargaming as we get to imagine what it would be like if we produced as much plastic as they do. I imagine Lego and Warhammer doesn't really end up in landfill/the ocean as it's very much the opposite of single-use, though I don't have any statistics to back that up. As a wargamer, probably the best thing you can do with your little plastic men is ensure they eventually go to someone else who will also use them and not throw them away? Don't be like that YouTube guy who burned his Dark Elves!
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/08/06 22:49:00
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2018/08/06 23:05:50
Subject: Is it possible to be an environmentally responsible tabletop wargamer?
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Posts with Authority
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China doesn't give a damn about their employees' safety in their factories, much less environmental pollution.
China gets beat over the head verbally about their nightmarish work conditions and pollution, then they nod and say "OK we will fix it but you also have to put money into a program to fix it". And then they laugh and just fan their toxic dust right over to Korea.
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Mob Rule is not a rule. |
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2018/08/06 23:45:42
Subject: Is it possible to be an environmentally responsible tabletop wargamer?
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Fixture of Dakka
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posermcbogus wrote:I'm sure I'm not the only one here who is a bit worried about the environment...
In Korea, we get pretty regular "bad pollution" days, where clouds of fine yellow dust sweep through, sometimes so thick you can actually see the stuff. A number of scientists have suggested that the ongoing 'global' heatwave is a result of man-made climate change, and ecosystems across the planet are being decimated to make way for industry, agriculture and housing.
With literal islands of plastic refuse forming in the oceans, is there a way for me to play with my silly little plastic men, and also sleep at night?
Don't get me wrong, I love the hobby, but are there ways of collecting, modeling, painting etc. that if nothing else kind of 'break even' with regards to pollution?
Have any miniatures companies ever addressed this issue? Do you think a big toy-making giant like GW would be willing to cut back, say, on packaging or something?
Or will I have to tell my grandkids before they leave to fight as child-soldiers over the last frozen bodies of unpolluted water "No, but really, the tactical marines set was really good, like, the design was so simple, and yet the parts were just super versatile, like you could do almost anything with that box it was so good, and...."
Cheers for looking!
Your gaming has nothing to do with pollution, unless your are over there in Korea huffing paint cans of carcinogens while spraying little Korean kids in the face with them, while you throw your plastic crack in the Han river with reckless abandon....
Seriously, though- Just use common sense. It's really not that hard. Use the sprues and packaging for scenery. Spray less paint when your basing by using spray discipline. Don't buy more then you need. Use human blood for Blood for the Blood god.... You know, common sense stuff.
Global Warming is a false god. Stop praying to that goat and making asshats like Al Gore rich while you listen to his false science. If you want to do something to offset pollution, get a grass roots effort together, and get a bunch of mates to go down to your local riverbank, and start cleaning up garbage, while yo9u put together a collective publicity campaign to draw attention to different spots in Korea that are all Jacked up from sloppy living and pollution. I can think of some serious places to start, such as Soul proper, up on the back side of Young San, Down Gangnam district, where all of the "Fashion Plates" drop their garbage and crap out the back side of the district....
Ours here started small. We have an organization that focuses on different aspects. One is like restoring wetlands, one is like cultivating Oysters, one is like "Save the XYZ" ( depending on the animal.)
Another thing would be to get a group together, such as your gaming group, and do some well publicized public service projects. The more publicity, the better, as you show a before and after picture of a site.
Hope that helps, I did a long time all over Korea, and it wouldn't hurt to start something up like that, the hard thing is to keep it going. As a service project, I wouldn't mind seeing something like "Dive The Han" if you had someone with the balls enough to go in that filth. In that accord, you could get a oyster or clam project going over there, as well...
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At Games Workshop, we believe that how you behave does matter. We believe this so strongly that we have written it down in the Games Workshop Book. There is a section in the book where we talk about the values we expect all staff to demonstrate in their working lives. These values are Lawyers, Guns and Money. |
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