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For all of you guys saying Leviathan dreadnought...

I would like to introduce you to the Custodes version of it, the Telemon dreadnought:

https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/resources/PDF/Downloads/40k-Adeptus-Custodes-Telemon-2018.pdf

It's got 1 more wound, double the attacks in CC, S9 instead of S8, Ld10 instead of Ld8 (for that pesky GSC mind control), 2+/4++/6+++ (holy crap), and 2x Arachnus las-storms each with 48" Heavy 10 S7 AP-1 D3 damage. It's also got a Spiculus bolt launcher which becomes a 24" Heavy 10 S5 AP-2 D1 weapon if you don't move.

Don't get me wrong, Leviathans are wonderful. But I'm sorry, the Telemon edges it out in every category

This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2018/08/31 14:52:12


 
   
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Fisheyes wrote:
For "all around" best single model, I am going to go with the following (non HQ or LoW)

-IG Orgyn Bodyguard with Deathmask relic (2++ save, character keyword protection, great CC damge)

-Tau Riptide

-Dark Eldar Talos

(For the record I play DE, Tau, SM and IG)


riptides seem out of place here... but then again it puts out thehurt it just cost WAY to much for what it does.

on the most powerful non lord of war. I vote Legio custodes Telemon Dreadnaught if we are counting beta rules, its a Leviaton +1

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The Telemon Heavy Dreadnought with two Telemon Caestus does 4d6 s7 AP -3 D1 auto hit shots at 8" range (it's a plasma flamer) and hits at S18 Ap -3 3D and rerolls 1's to wound.

You can drop it onto the field with a stratagem more than 3" away from any enemy models which will allow it to shoot and 98% chance of a successful charge with a reroll.

The killiest single model that isn't a LOW or HQ is probably some variation of this thing.
   
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I think we're all forgetting the real reason the deep strike nerf happened. Tempestus Scion with a Plasma Gun. Coupled with easy rerolls and their hilarious doctrine, it eased this model that caused an entire game style to be nerfed into the ground. Twice.
   
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Aw yeah page 2 everyone hop on the telemon train.
   
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StarHunter25 wrote:
I think we're all forgetting the real reason the deep strike nerf happened. Tempestus Scion with a Plasma Gun. Coupled with easy rerolls and their hilarious doctrine, it eased this model that caused an entire game style to be nerfed into the ground. Twice.


Their Reg Doctrine only works with their crappy rifles that have been nerfed into pointlessness. Now, I think the unit/model arguement applies here. 1 Scion with a Plasma, great, two shots, meh. Now, a SQUAD of 10 Scions with 4 Plasma, DSing into Rapid fire range, and letting off 8 shots of plasma spam and a buncha Hotshot volleys, now THAT is some pain. All for 154pts.

My vote is for Sly Marbo. Because reasons.
   
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Tempestus Scions Reg Doctrine does work on all weapons, as long as it's within half range, as far as I can see. Hotshot las doesn't get it on the deepstrike, but Plasma might be able to.

My vote for strongest is pretty tied between Leviathan and Telamon Dreadnought. If a shooty Telamon gets caught up in melee, it's basic punches back, while being high STR, likely won't get it out of melee alone. On the other hand, a shooting Leviathan, in my opinion, does best in Ultramarines, so it does have an option to walk out of melee and continue shooting.

I feel like the Leviathan is able to keep shooting, easier than a Telamon, while also having a better quality of shots. But, the Telamon also has better toughness, an extra wound, and a fnp AND has access to Deep Striking, to avoid getting alpha-striked.

Personal bias and love of the model makes me say Leviathan.

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Damn, I forgot the Telemon can deep strike. Holy crap. As much as I love my Leviathan, I think it's time for an upgrade...
   
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 Thadin wrote:
Personal bias and love of the model makes me say Leviathan.
Thoughts on the chaos leviathan and it's 4d3 mortal wound guns?
   
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8 mortal wounds on average is cool but it's hard to set up and is completely wasted on hordes. 90% of the time you want butcher cannons or storm cannon arrays or the Telemon las-storms for the extra range.
   
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 Thadin wrote:
Tempestus Scions Reg Doctrine does work on all weapons, as long as it's within half range, as far as I can see. Hotshot las doesn't get it on the deepstrike, but Plasma might be able to.

My vote for strongest is pretty tied between Leviathan and Telamon Dreadnought. If a shooty Telamon gets caught up in melee, it's basic punches back, while being high STR, likely won't get it out of melee alone. On the other hand, a shooting Leviathan, in my opinion, does best in Ultramarines, so it does have an option to walk out of melee and continue shooting.

I feel like the Leviathan is able to keep shooting, easier than a Telamon, while also having a better quality of shots. But, the Telamon also has better toughness, an extra wound, and a fnp AND has access to Deep Striking, to avoid getting alpha-striked.

Personal bias and love of the model makes me say Leviathan.


Scions can't use their doctrine unless every unit in the army is TS. Good luck building a list with a Battalion of Scions weighing it down, just for a doctrine that procs 11% of the time. I'd rather spend the 750pts on a couple of basalisks.


Has no one mentioned the Deathstrike?

If that actually gets off, and they use the Stratagem on it, it can dish out more mortal wounds than anything in the game, for a single shot.
   
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 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Scions can't use their doctrine unless every unit in the army is TS. Good luck building a list with a Battalion of Scions weighing it down, just for a doctrine that procs 11% of the time. I'd rather spend the 750pts on a couple of basalisks.


Has no one mentioned the Deathstrike?

If that actually gets off, and they use the Stratagem on it, it can dish out more mortal wounds than anything in the game, for a single shot.
I'm sure people would look into something like a patrol if they really wanted the doctrine not a full on battalion.
   
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barboggo wrote:
Damn, I forgot the Telemon can deep strike. Holy crap. As much as I love my Leviathan, I think it's time for an upgrade...



Unless I'm missing something, there's nothing that says the Telemon can deep strike...

Someone else mentioned that it can be set up within 3" of the enemy with a stratagem too, but that only (seems) to apply to teleporting units, and the Telemon doesn't have teleport/deepstrike on it's rules sheets?


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 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

Scions can't use their doctrine unless every unit in the army is TS. Good luck building a list with a Battalion of Scions weighing it down, just for a doctrine that procs 11% of the time. I'd rather spend the 750pts on a couple of basalisks.


Ignoring the fact that I was correcting a false claim you made, and not mentioning the tactical viability of a Scion Battalion... You're wrong again. Minimum cost of a Tempestus Scions Batallion is 231 points. However, if you want three large squads of your troops, loaded up with plasma, it's still only 534 points. I bump it up to 4 loaded squads in a Scion batallion I regularly run alongside my Cadian Guard army, and that's getting closer to the 750 claim.


Chaos Leviathan is solid, but doesn't match up to the Loyalists Leviathan. 5++ Invuln vs shooting, and only going to 4++ in melee is lacking. I prefer the Butcher Cannon compared to the Storm Cannon, for it's longer ranger, higher strength, and leadership modifier. The weaker AP value balances it out, but both are great weapons. I'll echo feelings of other people, I don't think the Soulburner Ribaudkin is good. Not losing attacks for taking ranged weapons makes the Hellforged stronger in melee, in addition to eating people is a nice bonus... But is just too anemic of an upgrade to lose the Loyalists Chapter Tactics, Ultramarines being the star for dreadnoughts IMO.

Edit;
Niiru wrote:
barboggo wrote:
Damn, I forgot the Telemon can deep strike. Holy crap. As much as I love my Leviathan, I think it's time for an upgrade...



Unless I'm missing something, there's nothing that says the Telemon can deep strike...

Someone else mentioned that it can be set up within 3" of the enemy with a stratagem too, but that only (seems) to apply to teleporting units, and the Telemon doesn't have teleport/deepstrike on it's rules sheets?



Stratagem lets it deepstrike, as normal, or you can use a Vexilla Stratagem to let it deepstrike even closer. I only considered the basic Deepstrike Stratagem, because this discussion is only about the single model. I should have mentioned that deepstrike was from a stratagem initially, my bad.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/08/31 17:41:28


 Rippy wrote:
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Leviathan Dreadnought - it's capable of killing smaller LoW outright. I once dropped against one in a 2k tournament and spent 4 turns shooting every weapon I had at it and doing no damage (sigh..most shots wound on 6 - always my least favorite roll)

It's T8, 2+ armor save with an invul and FNP save. It has a ton of wounds and carries a baneblade's worth of dakka.

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 Thadin wrote:


Stratagem lets it deepstrike, as normal, or you can use a Vexilla Stratagem to let it deepstrike even closer. I only considered the basic Deepstrike Stratagem, because this discussion is only about the single model. I should have mentioned that deepstrike was from a stratagem initially, my bad.


Ahh ok, I knew about the stratagem which let deepstrikers drop within 3", but I didn't know there was also one which gave any unit deepstrike.

That Vexilla stratagem is just... why do Custodes get all of the overpowered stuff. Even daemons popping out from psychically controlled warp bubbles have to stay 9" away.

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 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:


Scions can't use their doctrine unless every unit in the army is TS. Good luck building a list with a Battalion of Scions weighing it down, just for a doctrine that procs 11% of the time. I'd rather spend the 750pts on a couple of basalisks.


a) not every unit in the army has to be TS. You don't seriously claim cadian doctrine stops if you add blood angel detachment along side? TS works the same.
b) what with 750pts then if you claim entire army(2k) has to be ST...
c) minimum scion battallion with total of 6 plasma gun is bit over 300 pts. So less than half of your 750pts...Of course you can fit in more points if you want more plasma guns but then that's because you think plasma guns are worth it.
d) there's also possibility of patrol rather than battallion if you feel 13CP is enough and don't need 18CP. Or have brigade+patrol for 15 or brigade+bat+patrol for whopping 20. Patrol scions obviously cost even less. 230 with 4 plasma guns or 156 with 2.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/08/31 18:55:41


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tneva82 wrote:
 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:


Scions can't use their doctrine unless every unit in the army is TS. Good luck building a list with a Battalion of Scions weighing it down, just for a doctrine that procs 11% of the time. I'd rather spend the 750pts on a couple of basalisks.


a) not every unit in the army has to be TS. You don't seriously claim cadian doctrine stops if you add blood angel detachment along side? TS works the same.
b) what with 750pts then if you claim entire army(2k) has to be ST...
c) minimum scion battallion with total of 6 plasma gun is bit over 300 pts. So less than half of your 750pts...Of course you can fit in more points if you want more plasma guns but then that's because you think plasma guns are worth it.
d) there's also possibility of patrol rather than battallion if you feel 13CP is enough and don't need 18CP. Or have brigade+patrol for 15 or brigade+bat+patrol for whopping 20. Patrol scions obviously cost even less. 230 with 4 plasma guns or 156 with 2.



Lol I do love how people who play IG/TS/etc will be like "you could use lesser detachments if 13/18 CP is enough for you, you know, if you can scrape by with only a dozen or so command points".

And here I am having to literally bend and break detachments just to get 13CP AT BEST. 8CP is a much more likely maximum.


On topic - Leviathans do seem pretty mighty. The Spartan too, as it is basically what the Land Raider wishes it was.

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Niiru wrote:
Lol I do love how people who play IG/TS/etc will be like "you could use lesser detachments if 13/18 CP is enough for you, you know, if you can scrape by with only a dozen or so command points".


Well on the flip side for pure IG that's way too many CP. IG is one of the LEAST CP hungry armies. In fact after the FAQ CP change I have stopped using grand master with pure IG armies as even with 13 CP(which btw is what I get easily with both IG and orks...Though orks need them even less!) I don't manage to use them all during the game.

Problem is, surprise surprise, soup. Soup is always the source of trouble. IG having easy time getting CP is countered by the fact they don't have any super strategems like say BA or knights have. Those meanwhile have very good strategems but have hard time getting enough CP...And since soup allows to combine those getting best of both worlds...THAT is the issue. Anybody saying IG has too many CP's is actually missing the problem which is soup rather than IG's CP amount

Fix the damn soup which is source of majority of 40k balance issues.

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Or just specify that CP can only be spent by the Detachments that generated them and leave those of us who use soup for fluff alone, instead of wading in with a sledgehammer.

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tneva82 wrote:
Niiru wrote:
Lol I do love how people who play IG/TS/etc will be like "you could use lesser detachments if 13/18 CP is enough for you, you know, if you can scrape by with only a dozen or so command points".


Well on the flip side for pure IG that's way too many CP. IG is one of the LEAST CP hungry armies. In fact after the FAQ CP change I have stopped using grand master with pure IG armies as even with 13 CP(which btw is what I get easily with both IG and orks...Though orks need them even less!) I don't manage to use them all during the game.

Problem is, surprise surprise, soup. Soup is always the source of trouble. IG having easy time getting CP is countered by the fact they don't have any super strategems like say BA or knights have. Those meanwhile have very good strategems but have hard time getting enough CP...And since soup allows to combine those getting best of both worlds...THAT is the issue. Anybody saying IG has too many CP's is actually missing the problem which is soup rather than IG's CP amount

Fix the damn soup which is source of majority of 40k balance issues.


Excommunicatus wrote:Or just specify that CP can only be spent by the Detachments that generated them and leave those of us who use soup for fluff alone, instead of wading in with a sledgehammer.



I think this is the ideal solution. CP generated from an IG detachment can only be used for IG stratagems, etc etc. And you get the 3CP for battleforged which can be spend anywhere you wish.

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Well, it didn't take long for the discussion to get sidetracked from most powerful unit, to talking about "Fixing the soup problem and CP generation."

Come on, there's dozens and dozens of threads already talking about it.

 Rippy wrote:
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 Thadin wrote:
Well, it didn't take long for the discussion to get sidetracked from most powerful unit, to talking about "Fixing the soup problem and CP generation."

Come on, there's dozens and dozens of threads already talking about it.


Well the answer pretty much seems to be the Leviathan, or one of the Imperial Knights, or the Custodes Dreadnought.

Funny how all the overpowered stuff seems to be Imperium... Offhand I can't think of much non-Imperial stuff that's a single overpowered model.

I guess if you go for things like Eldar Titans or a Stompa, which are (if points were meaningless) pretty powerful models. But for 40k you pretty much always have to take points into consideration.

My vote is still for Leviathan, as it's cheap enough to fit into a list and is basically a knight but in a smaller body. However I hadn't heard of the Custodes one before today, and that (along with their 3" deepstrike stratagem combo) seems to be a Mary-Sue Leviathan, so it's probably that one.

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 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
Leviathan Dreadnought, probably. It's more than halfway to a Lord of War with 20 shots of S7, AP-1, D2 hitting on 2's.

That said, it's also expensive and requires a non-RELIC partner to be fielded.

Point-for-points, it's probably some hideous melee unit with half a dozen attacks and the ability to fight twice, like Death Company, or Khorne Berzerkers.

Butcher cannon is S8, one more win for Chaos
   
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You guys really need to look at the Fighter Bomber. Anyone saying the leviathan, is not even even close.

Tigershark:

24x S6 AP1 D2 shots
2D6x S6 AP2 D2 shots
4x S7 AP1 D1-3 shots
6x S8 AP1 D1-3 shots
6x S8 AP2 D1-6 seekers

2+ BS, and your normal Tau staples allow it to fire seekers at natural BS too as an added buff

Also T8, 16W and Hard to Hit

It's pretty clear cut some far


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 G00fySmiley wrote:
Fisheyes wrote:
For "all around" best single model, I am going to go with the following (non HQ or LoW)

-IG Orgyn Bodyguard with Deathmask relic (2++ save, character keyword protection, great CC damge)

-Tau Riptide

-Dark Eldar Talos

(For the record I play DE, Tau, SM and IG)


riptides seem out of place here... but then again it puts out thehurt it just cost WAY to much for what it does.

on the most powerful non lord of war. I vote Legio custodes Telemon Dreadnaught if we are counting beta rules, its a Leviaton +1

Riptide is costed very well lol posts like this make me laugh

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/08/31 22:53:37


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 SHUPPET wrote:
You guys really need to look at the Fighter Bomber. Anyone saying the leviathan, is not even even close.

Tigershark:

24x S6 AP1 D2 shots
2D6x S6 AP2 D2 shots
4x S7 AP1 D1-3 shots
6x S8 AP1 D1-3 shots
6x S8 AP2 D1-6 seekers

2+ BS, and your normal Tau staples allow it to fire seekers at natural BS too as an added buff

Also T8, 16W and Hard to Hit

It's pretty clear cut some far




Had to look this one up.

16 x S6/AP-1/D1 (Heavy Bursts)
2D6 x S6/ AP-2/ D2 (Skyspears)
8 x S5/AP0/D1 (Burst Cannons)
4x S7 / AP-1/ DD3 (Missile pods)

Plus 6 one-shot missiles, which average 1 MW between them total per game (not per turn).

Not sure where you're getting your other 12 shots from? It has no options for a S8/Ap-1 weapon, and you can't have the Ion Cannon and the Heavy Burst Cannon at the same time (which you seem to be doing).

It's still a LOT of firepower though, and being a T8 flyer means it will be very hard to kill. It's also 1/3 more expensive than a Leviathan, so its a lot of points.

Honestly flyers have been one of those things I've not yet gotting into in 40k. I keep considering them, but something about them keeps making me think no. Might be because most of the half decent flying options are forgeworld, and so are quite expensive to get into without converting my own...

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Niiru wrote:
 SHUPPET wrote:
You guys really need to look at the Fighter Bomber. Anyone saying the leviathan, is not even even close.

Tigershark:

24x S6 AP1 D2 shots
2D6x S6 AP2 D2 shots
4x S7 AP1 D1-3 shots
6x S8 AP1 D1-3 shots
6x S8 AP2 D1-6 seekers

2+ BS, and your normal Tau staples allow it to fire seekers at natural BS too as an added buff

Also T8, 16W and Hard to Hit

It's pretty clear cut some far




Had to look this one up.

16 x S6/AP-1/D1 (Heavy Bursts)
2D6 x S6/ AP-2/ D2 (Skyspears)
8 x S5/AP0/D1 (Burst Cannons)
4x S7 / AP-1/ DD3 (Missile pods)

Plus 6 one-shot missiles, which average 1 MW between them total per game (not per turn).

Not sure where you're getting your other 12 shots from? It has no options for a S8/Ap-1 weapon, and you can't have the Ion Cannon and the Heavy Burst Cannon at the same time (which you seem to be doing).

It's still a LOT of firepower though, and being a T8 flyer means it will be very hard to kill. It's also 1/3 more expensive than a Leviathan, so its a lot of points.

Honestly flyers have been one of those things I've not yet gotting into in 40k. I keep considering them, but something about them keeps making me think no. Might be because most of the half decent flying options are forgeworld, and so are quite expensive to get into without converting my own...



The HBC's are 12 shots each, and it has 2 of them. That is 24 shots.
the S8 AP1 D1-3 weapon is the Cyclic Ion Blasters, that it can replace the mini Burst Cannons with.

It has the exact stats I said it had.


It's also 1/3 more expensive than a Leviathan, so its a lot of points.

The thread is not for the most points efficient, or else something a Chaos Cultist or something dumb win everything.

The thread is for, quote, "what single model that isn't an HQ or a Lord of War is the most dangerous killy thing".

It's absolutely the Tigershark. Even taking into account points though, it's still better than the Levi imo.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/09/01 01:13:37


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 SHUPPET wrote:


The HBC's are 12 shots each, and it has 2 of them. That is 24 shots.
the S8 AP1 D1-3 weapon is the Cyclic Ion Blasters, that it can replace the mini Burst Cannons with.

It has the exact stats I said it had.



Oh ok, I can only assume there's been an FAQ for that IA book that I've missed, as my book says they're 8 shots each, and the mini Burst Cannons can't be replaced with anything. I have all the updates from the official FAQ/Errata for IA:Xenos, do you happen to know where the other updates are?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 SHUPPET wrote:

The thread is not for the most points efficient, or else something a Chaos Cultist or something dumb win everything.

The thread is for, quote, "what single model that isn't an HQ or a Lord of War is the most dangerous killy thing".

It's absolutely the Tigershark. Even taking into account points though, it's still better than the Levi imo.




Very true, and yeh you might be right. Tigershark is pretty beastly.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/09/01 01:27:13


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Niiru wrote:
 SHUPPET wrote:


The HBC's are 12 shots each, and it has 2 of them. That is 24 shots.
the S8 AP1 D1-3 weapon is the Cyclic Ion Blasters, that it can replace the mini Burst Cannons with.

It has the exact stats I said it had.



Oh ok, I can only assume there's been an FAQ for that IA book that I've missed, as my book says they're 8 shots each, and the mini Burst Cannons can't be replaced with anything. I have all the updates from the official FAQ/Errata for IA:Xenos, do you happen to know where the other updates are?



 SHUPPET wrote:

The thread is not for the most points efficient, or else something a Chaos Cultist or something dumb win everything.

The thread is for, quote, "what single model that isn't an HQ or a Lord of War is the most dangerous killy thing".

It's absolutely the Tigershark. Even taking into account points though, it's still better than the Levi imo.




Very true, and yeh you might be right. Tigershark is pretty beastly.

GW stated that index units use the most recent rulings for any gear they have, and HBC got an improved profile in the dex, which is part of the reason that Tigershark's efficiency skyrocketed, considering it holds 2 of them and was balanced around a different weapon profile.

As for the burst cannons, it says on the datasheet that they can be replaced with Cyclic Ion Blasters under wargear options!

I definitely think this one is a no-contest, at least compared to all the submissions I've seen so far. There's probably some other FW flyer out there with an even better profile that I don't know of because it's so overcosted that nobody plays it lol


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 SHUPPET wrote:
...There's probably some other FW flyer out there with an even better profile that I don't know of because it's so overcosted that nobody plays it lol



Not that isn't a LoW. Next biggest non-LoW Flyer is the Fire Raptor, which is pretty killy but not really a patch on the Tiger Shark.

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