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Made in gb
[DCM]
Wicked Warp Spider





London, UK

Not a chance, if my opponent can't remember my list, he or she can ask me during the game before they make the move, otherwise no take backsies.

During a casual game I'll mention it but I don't want to come across as coaching either.

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Made in gb
Frenzied Berserker Terminator






This is utter nonsense.
   
Made in au
[MOD]
Cutting stuff up and bunging it back together in new and interesting ways.






Under the couch

Slipspace wrote:

I agree with the general consensus here. You're not obligated to tell your opponent they're making a tactical error..

I think some of the responses here have turned it into a bigger question than it actually was... I took the original question more as 'would it be a sporting thing to do' rather than 'are you obligated'...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/08 08:29:03


   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran




 insaniak wrote:
Slipspace wrote:

I agree with the general consensus here. You're not obligated to tell your opponent they're making a tactical error..

I think some of the responses here have turned it into a bigger question than it actually was... I took the original question more as 'would it be a sporting thing to do' rather than 'are you obligated'...


I'm not sure it makes a huge amount of difference though. As I noted, you can't even be sure your opponent is actually making a mistake in the first place, so best to keep quiet anyway. I think the important thing is how you handle it after the fact. Screaming "you suck!" to the guy and laughing in their face while resolving your Auspex Scan isn't the way to go either.
   
Made in gb
Death-Dealing Ultramarine Devastator





Holy Terra

The example used by TC is a funny one because if you remind your opponent you are effectively eliminating one of your own tactical advantages and removing the use of one of your strats.

The answer is no, you shouldn't say anything.

If I am asked a direct question or spot a rule error I will of course point it out, even if it might be to my detriment. Tactical errors are different.

-~Ishagu~- 
   
Made in fi
Decrepit Dakkanaut





 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
This is utter nonsense.


Yeah well sure it's for must win and only win matter players.

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Made in us
Sinewy Scourge




I would say that making it clear what your army is capable of pre-game and asking if your opponent needs clarification is the way to go. Leaving the onus on them to ask a question they don't know they need to ask is a bit of a jerk move, but requiring them to remember what you told them seems fair. If they choose to play into one of the advantages you have, they either (a) aren't playing well or (b) have a cunning plan. If they don't know (because you didn't tell them) then that's unsportsmanlike. Similarly if someone is placing a unit from deep strike and says "I'm planning to place them here, because no one can intercept at this spot" before placing them and you know that something can, they've made the intent clear, so I'd point out the unit they hadn't noticed (especially if they can't see it).
   
Made in au
Stern Iron Priest with Thrall Bodyguard






Even if I could read my opponent's plans I'm usually too busy cursing myself for my latest forgotten unit, phase, ability screw up to worry about my opponent's tactical errors.

I don't break the rules but I'll bend them as far as they'll go. 
   
Made in gb
Death-Dealing Dark Angels Devastator





If they make an obvious blunder or have forgotten that minor detail/'gotcha' trick you explained to them an hour and half ago: yeah sure, it shouldn't matter what setting you're in. Expecting me/your opponent to know every detail of your list and all the tricks it can do off a 30s glance at the list looking for that one really nasty unit they need to answer isn't being a better player.

I've done some competitive Warmachine - the community even in tournaments would still point out errors or possible threats an opponent may not have realised was there so that you're both playing the best you possibly could. It's a much better attitude than the problem I feel exists throughout all competitive 40k - you don't want your opponent to play there best you want them to make mistakes and tilt themselves out of games.

 
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut




Slipspace 775173 10440075 wrote:

I'm not sure it makes a huge amount of difference though. As I noted, you can't even be sure your opponent is actually making a mistake in the first place, so best to keep quiet anyway. I think the important thing is how you handle it after the fact. Screaming "you suck!" to the guy and laughing in their face while resolving your Auspex Scan isn't the way to go either.

Imagine you had a unit of 5 sternguard vets huging a tall wall for 3 turns, and your opponent does not see them and he forgot that you set up up there durning deployment. Should you tell him to not move his HQ on his last 2 wounds on to an objective that is 12" away from the "hidden" sternguard, durning a tournament.



 insaniak wrote:
Slipspace wrote:

I agree with the general consensus here. You're not obligated to tell your opponent they're making a tactical error..

I think some of the responses here have turned it into a bigger question than it actually was... I took the original question more as 'would it be a sporting thing to do' rather than 'are you obligated'...

I always have problem with people saying that in context of events and tournaments. When you say sporting do you mean stuff that is actualy done durning sport events, and what sportsmen do, or something else ?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
ryuken87 wrote:
I go through my army (DE) in great detail before the game, because although I like winning I don't like creating feel bad moments. At every tournament I go to there's always one guy who doesn't know what Agents of Vect does, which is surprising but is just because he doesn't have a DE player in his local meta, so I tell them about Vect, Vexator Mask, Black Cornucopians and the other tricks I have. Opponents rarely go into the same detail with me, but I usually know their rules so its fine.

But once the dice start rolling, it's all fair.


But isn't this a bit like not teaching yourself sports rule at a given events? In a tournament setting people should train and know armies they face. If I go to an event that okeys an elbow turn or high suplex, then if my opponent uses it on me, and am suprised, then I can only blame myself for it.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/08 11:17:04


 
   
Made in gb
Lethal Lhamean




Birmingham

When swapping lists in a tournament I'll ask my opponent if they have any questions regarding my list, giving them a chance to find out what my army can do before the game starts. In the example the OP provides the game has various abilities to shoot units that have just arrived on the table, if my opponent has not thought to ask me whether I have access to one of those abilties then I will not feel obligated to tell him about it when his squad of Orks lands from deep strike right next to me.

This works in revers as well, I am not an experienced tournament player and I have definitely run into situations where I know I've been caught out because I didn't ask the right questions and that was very much my mistake.
   
Made in gb
Council of 13 Runner Up






No.

If they're making a tactical or strategic error, that is solely on them. Indeed, it's in the making of such tactical and strategic blunders that we actually get better at the game.

If anyone in the OP's poser is a poor sport, it's the reproachful 'I wish you'd told me that' player.

This is why WYSIWYG is particularly important., If there's an Auspex modelled in the squad, it's there to be seen, and to be wary of.

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Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka






Karol wrote:

I always have problem with people saying that in context of events and tournaments. When you say sporting do you mean stuff that is actualy done durning sport events, and what sportsmen do, or something else ?


It's not out of the ordinary in some sports; cricket and snooker spring to mind. At least when it comes to owning up to your own fouls.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If they just make a poor tactical choice, or fail to capitalise on my cock-ups, then no I'll keep it quiet. If they forget to deploy their deep-strike units or move on to the Charge phase without having conducted the shooting of their tank squadron or something equally ridiculous, I'd probably remind them - winning because my opponent has a brief lack of concentration doesn't make for a fun game for anyone involved.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/08 11:39:20


 
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran




 AndrewGPaul wrote:
Karol wrote:

I always have problem with people saying that in context of events and tournaments. When you say sporting do you mean stuff that is actualy done durning sport events, and what sportsmen do, or something else ?


It's not out of the ordinary in some sports; cricket and snooker spring to mind. At least when it comes to owning up to your own fouls.


To expand on this because Karol seems genuinely confused, "sporting" in this context means "in the spirit of fair play and courtesy towards your opponent". It's the exact opposite of being ruthless in your use (and sometimes exploitation) of the rules to your own benefit. For example, in golf it's generally the case, even at professional level, that players will call fouls against themselves for various infractions. That's sporting behaviour. Not admitting to a foul you know you've made in golf would likely be classed as TFG behaviour.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Karol wrote:
Slipspace 775173 10440075 wrote:

I'm not sure it makes a huge amount of difference though. As I noted, you can't even be sure your opponent is actually making a mistake in the first place, so best to keep quiet anyway. I think the important thing is how you handle it after the fact. Screaming "you suck!" to the guy and laughing in their face while resolving your Auspex Scan isn't the way to go either.

Imagine you had a unit of 5 sternguard vets huging a tall wall for 3 turns, and your opponent does not see them and he forgot that you set up up there durning deployment. Should you tell him to not move his HQ on his last 2 wounds on to an objective that is 12" away from the "hidden" sternguard, durning a tournament.


I probably wouldn't say anything. It's up to my opponent to keep track of the game state as much as it is me. Apart from anything else, I don't know if my opponent has forgotten about them or maybe he thinks his character is able to survive their attack? If my opponent said something like "I'll put this character here so he's safe from being shot at" I might mention the Sternguard, depending on the exact situation. The problem with discussing this online is it's very difficult to give hard and fast rules because a lot of this depends on context.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/08 11:51:50


 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




In a tournament no.

In a friendly game that I have in the bag and its obvious my opponent is checking out? Maybe. Not sure it hugely helps - but I'm playing for fun and I don't have it if my opponent isn't. Often though its better for them to just concede and play again than start doing this quasi-"can you get back into it" coaching. Depends if they are really interested in learning or not.
   
Made in gb
Wight Lord with the Sword of Kings






UK

 Peregrine wrote:
no. You are obligated to tell your opponent if they are making an illegal move, even if making that illegal move would benefit you. You are not obligated to help your opponent beat you by giving them strategic advice.


Two different things - the OP is talking about making a mistake - there is no obligation to tell them - up to you and can hope karma would come into play.

If you know something is illegal and you let it go because its in your interest then as far as I am concerned then you are cheating in the same way as if you knowingly made a illegal move yourself.

I know some players pretend that there is a loop hole that allows them to cheat in this way but that says it all about them - at whatever level they play.

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Made in ca
Perfect Shot Dark Angels Predator Pilot



Canada

General Hobbs wrote:

For example
I have say, a stern guard unit with plasma etc on the flank of my army.

my opponent sets up an Ork unit 9 inches away.

Should I remind him I have auspex scan, or wait till he is done and then announce I am using it and shooting. In other words, should I give him a chance to not make a mistake?

I've often heard a player say, I wish you had told me about that, in a reproving tone of voice.

On the flip side, if you do inform your opponent about something, you end up negating parts of your army. ( I have an army build which I realized I can shoot at deepstrikes/infiltraters 3 times if the set up is correct, twice if not)


Thoughts?


I believe that Napoleon might say something in this instance like: "Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake." Now, we are not in a real battle on a real battlefield and our opponent is not our enemy, but there is some wisdom in there. Assuming that this is not a "teaching" game against a new player then I think that its a little condescending to offer tactical advice to my opponent. This is different than pointing out procedural mistakes. Pointing out that somebody forgot a step (like rushing into shooting and forgetting Psychic) and then letting them resolve their Psychic phase is good sportsmanship. Advising them which powers to use on which model is not good sportsmanship in my view.

As long as my army composition is clear and I am using a legal, published list with published rules then I say lets keep our tactical advice to ourselves. A grey area might be where somebody has clearly misunderstood the victory conditions and is about to do something that is an auto-lose (a good review of the victory conditions before the game helps here). A game with a brand new codex might benefit from a quick summary of the highlights. Auspex Scan has been out for a long time, though, and I expect an opponent that uses "deep strike" to know about it.

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Made in us
Hellish Haemonculus






Boskydell, IL

If they're just making a tactical error, it will depend on the situation for me.

If I have the clear upper hand, and can afford to be magnanimous, I will absolutely tell them. If for no other reason than to increase the odds of catching that sportsmanship vote. (Which, lets be honest, I probably won't get if I'm winning.)

If it's a close game, or if I'm losing, then absolutely not.

It's a sporting thing to do, for sure, but not a requirement.

Welcome to the Freakshow!

(Leadership-shenanigans for Eldar of all types.) 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut



London

Because I am not an arse I do make sure the opponent knows everything I can do. And if they are making a mistake I do ask them are they sure. I don't 'correct' them (after all they may have a plan) or play their game for them, but equally I don't let them fluff stuff through honest mistakes or forgetting what my army can do.
   
Made in ca
Ancient Venerable Black Templar Dreadnought





Canada

Some of the most memorable moments of play for me is some of the epic screwups I have done and my opponent has done which (hopefully) is approached with good humor afterward.
If we are both experienced, there would be no expectation of assistance unless as pointed out, the mistakes are not following the rules then they need to be pointed out.
Errors happen, most people want to "own" what they did win or lose.
It would be a mixed feeling to win a game if your opponent pointed out errors that could have lost it for you.

With my friends we ridicule each other mercilessly, it seems to add to the game and makes us work harder at being better at playing.
Your results and motivations may vary.

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Made in us
Douglas Bader






 Mr Morden wrote:
 Peregrine wrote:
no. You are obligated to tell your opponent if they are making an illegal move, even if making that illegal move would benefit you. You are not obligated to help your opponent beat you by giving them strategic advice.


Two different things - the OP is talking about making a mistake - there is no obligation to tell them - up to you and can hope karma would come into play.

If you know something is illegal and you let it go because its in your interest then as far as I am concerned then you are cheating in the same way as if you knowingly made a illegal move yourself.

I know some players pretend that there is a loop hole that allows them to cheat in this way but that says it all about them - at whatever level they play.


Yes, I know that, my point is that I'm only saying something if the "mistake" is a rule violation. If it's just a poor decision (from my point of view) I'm not going to help my opponent win by giving them advice. Nor is there any obligation to.

There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Specific to Tournaments and *tactical* mistakes, generally now.

But they have to be actual *tactical* mistakes - like deciding he wants to wipe out my 5-man Dev squad in cover right next to a 5-man Dev squad not in cover, with no real other difference.

If it's not actually a tactical mistake - if it could be that he lacks information he should have, or mistook a rule, and thus is doing something that'll cost him the game - then I feel compelled to point it out.

If, in the above scenario, it's not immediately obvious by looking at the Devs that one is in cover and the other is not, or it's not immediately obvious by looking at them that they're two different units, or if he might not realize that some rule that protected the other squad no longer applies, then it's not a tactical mistake.

If the game is about tactics and listbuilding, then those such mistakes must be pointed out.
   
Made in es
Dark Angels Librarian with Book of Secrets




Vigo. Spain.

I don't consider it even good manners in a serious tournament. People go there to win so if you don't point out their mistakes, is not like you are being a bad opponent or anything. After the game you could talk to them about their mistakes, and maybe they point out some of your own, and that will help you both improve as a player, but thats a different thing.

But in more casual tournaments, for example, I nearly only play in my monthly FLGS tournaments where the prices are given at random to all participants so theres just no reason to want to reach first (In relation to winning anything) , and most people play ultra casual. The tournament is an excuse to have 3 games in a day, and we go eat all in group and have a fun time, so I normally, specially if I'm playing agaisnt new players, try to help them.

But even there theres some guys that take it more seriously and I don't say anything when they make tactical mistakes. As others have pointed out, thats exactly the fun part about the game. By capitalizing in your opponent tactical mistakes (Not rules based ones, rules should always be played right) is how the game progresses.

 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
Made in ca
Missionary On A Mission






As far as I'm concerned, golden rule applies. If my opponent deep strikes next to a unit that can intercept deep strikers I'll remind them that they can, and I'll expect they do the same if the situation is reversed.

The game is built around the assumption that both players know what each others' units can do, so if I suspect someone has forgotten something relevant to what they're trying to do I think it's right to remind them. Sometimes though, they're doing it because they have weighed the risks and want to do it anyway, and if I do it too often they become annoyed.

Of course, that can break down, if it becomes clear that they aren't extending me the same courtesy I'll stop as well. In that regards it isn't so bad as someone who thinks they shouldn't tell people what their abilities or wargear do at all, who should just be avoided.

I've heard it said that she can melt you with her eyes. 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




Depends on the game. if I'm in the chase for top tables.. if I tell you then, I'm trying to spook you into placing somewhere better for me.

If i'm in the Fun kids section, I might say something to make the game more even, or to see if it changes a result.
   
Made in us
Stoic Grail Knight




If it's a tournament, I'll happily remind my opponent about things unique to my specific list, but will not for things specific to my army. Anyone is capable of opening 1d4chan or some other site and getting a rundown on what an army's stratagems are.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/08 18:31:33


 
   
Made in us
Drop Trooper with Demo Charge




Illinois

I’ll let my opponent know about any gotchas or gimmicks that my army might have before the game if I get the impression that they don’t know about them (smash captains, dark matter crystal, knights with 30+ inch threat ranges, etc). I’ve played so many demo games and with new players that I’ve gotten pretty good at telling people how to beat me so I have to make an effort to turn it off and just shut up in tournaments. If you tell someone their about to make a mistake and your not playing on a clock most of the time they’ll stand they’re forever wasting time while they rethink what they were just about to do.
   
Made in us
Cosmic Joe





 BaconCatBug wrote:
In short, no. The objective of a game is to win the game.


Now, now. Say the full quote here...

Playing the game IRL is far different to Vassal. You'd know that if you'd actually done it.



OT-

If someone is new I'll correct them and warn them of what they are about to do and why it might be a bad idea. Experienced player? It's on them. Because at the end of the day you're both there to have fun and frankly it's not really fun for either player stomping newbies is it?



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Made in us
Dive-Bombin' Fighta-Bomba Pilot






Depends on a few factors.

if i know it is a newer player yes 100% even if it is on a top table of a tournament.

If they are a veteran at a tournament probably not.

in a pick up game 100% of the time yes,

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Savage Khorne Berserker Biker





Ohio

I made a critical game losing mistake at my last tournament that my opponent knew about and he didn't tell me. I don't fault him one bit. Its my responsibility as a competitive player to cross all my t's and dot all the i's. My opponent shouldn't have to babysit me. We even Bro'd out after the game. No salt.
   
 
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