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KurtAngle2 wrote:

 Yarium wrote:
I'd say Nids in general. Their design is great, and they have in-game tools to give you fun tweaks on the formula. Gaunts would be your wave after wave, but you can have multiple kinds of gaunts that have clearly established roles. Then you throw in some Genestealers that come out from nodes, establishing a challenge to get out and destroy the node. Then you throw in some Rippers, followed quickly by Raveners, to establish their burrowing mechanic. Then you start bringing in Synaptic support (Warriors) to show how much tougher they get when Synapse is near. Then you bring in a Patriarch with some Genestealers (Synapse + nodes). Then you bring in a few Zoanthropes by Tyrranocyte (Synapse + deep strike). Then you throw down the BIG CHALLENGE; a Trygon Prime with Warriors, which hits all three previously established bonus challenges at the same time!

Then you lose your army in 2 turns because half of the models you suggested are trash tier

Did you read the OP? He is designing a fun vs. hoarde game not trying to win NOVA

I think for my purposes, I want to focus on horde units that are very easy to mow down, but can be recycled in each "Wave".

I like several of the ideas here to add bigger threats for each Wave. I think because of that, I'm going to go with Chaos, since I already own some Chaos and with the "mutable" nature of Chaos and extended range in both 40K and AoS of modeling options for Chaotic things, I think that gives me the most options.

I'll probably go with Skaven for now since they offer the most "bang for my buck" in terms on GW official kits. I can get Plague Monks or Clanrats for $30 a box either a my LGS that sells at a discount or on eBay. $1.50 per model isn't too bad for official GW models

Although if I can find that bag-o-100 Zombies in a store nearby, I may get those as well/instead

Thanx everyone!

 small_gods wrote:

KurtAngle2 wrote:

 Yarium wrote:
I'd say Nids in general. Their design is great, and they have in-game tools to give you fun tweaks on the formula. Gaunts would be your wave after wave, but you can have multiple kinds of gaunts that have clearly established roles. Then you throw in some Genestealers that come out from nodes, establishing a challenge to get out and destroy the node. Then you throw in some Rippers, followed quickly by Raveners, to establish their burrowing mechanic. Then you start bringing in Synaptic support (Warriors) to show how much tougher they get when Synapse is near. Then you bring in a Patriarch with some Genestealers (Synapse + nodes). Then you bring in a few Zoanthropes by Tyrranocyte (Synapse + deep strike). Then you throw down the BIG CHALLENGE; a Trygon Prime with Warriors, which hits all three previously established bonus challenges at the same time!

Then you lose your army in 2 turns because half of the models you suggested are trash tier

Did you read the OP? He is designing a fun vs. hoarde game not trying to win NOVA

It's not even fun when you lack decent bonuses to your hordes as you're limited to Synapse and the Odd FNP 5+ thrown in. Other armies have better features for horde gameplay both in effectiveness AND fun

KurtAngle2 wrote:
It's not even fun when you lack decent bonuses to your hordes as you're limited to Synapse and the Odd FNP 5+ thrown in. Other armies have better features for horde gameplay both in effectiveness AND fun

You really need to re-read the OP . He's not playing a regular 40k game. He's playing a scenario that he's going to invent. In that case, everything about the regular rules goes out the window. He can, say, if he wants, "In this Scenario, so long as Burbox the Boil Burster is on the table, whenever you make an unmodified roll of 1 for a Nurgling or Plaguebearer's Disgustingly Resilient roll, an enemy model within 1" of the unit suffers a mortal wound." - it's not a real rule, he can just do whatever.

My post was saying "hey, here's why I think Nids can provide a neat range of options for that scenario", and not "hey, take these units and play a horde-style army".


Galef, if you're going Chaos, I'd love to help you design a scenario! This for a campaign or a one-off adventure sort of thing? Feel free to use the above suggestion for Burbox the Boil Buster

 Yarium wrote:
Galef, if you're going Chaos, I'd love to help you design a scenario! This for a campaign or a one-off adventure sort of thing? Feel free to use the above suggestion for Burbox the Boil Buster

Thanx. this is just for me and my boys at home. They like playing video games and I wanted to design something similar to a mash-up of Halo and Call-of-Duty Zombies. So Wave after Wave of chaff with the occasional bigger threat (that doesn't recycle) until the non-horde player has no more models.
Poxwalkers would probably be best for that since they are T3 (my boys will be using Marines, so Bolters mostly) and Poxwalkers don't take Morale at all, and would probably not do much damage to Primaris Marines. We might "up the threat" on a later turns by turning the Poxwalkers to Plague bearers to represent their "AI" increasing the NPCs damage and durability.

There'd be no turn limit and the non-horde player(s) would have a simple Battalion with JUST Troops and minimum HQ.

Actually, now that I'm thinking about it. It could be a competition between my 2 boys and I could control the "NPC" horde. Each player gains a point for each Model they kill and would alternate resolving they units in the shared turn.
Whichever Marine player is in the "lead" for points during the Horde turn is the primary units the Horde must move towards and try to attack

-

 Galef wrote:

 Yarium wrote:
Galef, if you're going Chaos, I'd love to help you design a scenario! This for a campaign or a one-off adventure sort of thing? Feel free to use the above suggestion for Burbox the Boil Buster

Thanx. this is just for me and my boys at home. They like playing video games and I wanted to design something similar to a mash-up of Halo and Call-of-Duty Zombies. So Wave after Wave of chaff with the occasional bigger threat (that doesn't recycle) until the non-horde player has no more models.
Poxwalkers would probably be best for that since they are T3 (my boys will be using Marines, so Bolters mostly) and Poxwalkers don't take Morale at all, and would probably not do much damage to Primaris Marines. We might "up the threat" on a later turns by turning the Poxwalkers to Plague bearers to represent their "AI" increasing the NPCs damage and durability.

There'd be no turn limit and the non-horde player(s) would have a simple Battalion with JUST Troops and minimum HQ.

Actually, now that I'm thinking about it. It could be a competition between my 2 boys and I could control the "NPC" horde. Each player gains a point for each Model they kill and would alternate resolving they units in the shared turn.
Whichever Marine player is in the "lead" for points during the Horde turn is the primary units the Horde must move towards and try to attack

-

Okay, so a specific scenario. Means we'll approach this more like a 40k Board Game - similar to Castle Panic (https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/43443/castle-panic). Co-operative, in that the zone needs to remain free of baddies, but competitive in that the winner is whomever is alive at the end. I would recommend having the bad guys follow a "program" for how they act. It'll be nice because it helps prevent you from being the bad guy. Blackstone Fortress' chart could be easily trimmed down to a d6 roll;

1 - Siege - Moves as little as possible to have the nearest enemy unit be within line of sight, moving around terrain. Shoots, if they can, at the nearest visible enemy unit. Charge if they can, declaring everything within 12" as a target of the charge.
2 - Advance - Move as fast as possible towards the nearest visible enemy unit, advancing with the unit, and they move around terrain. Shoot, if they can, at nearest visible enemy unit. Charge if they can, declaring everything within 12" as a target of the charge.
3 - Sneak - Move as fast as possible towards the nearest visible enemy by the most direct route, moving through terrain, but only leaving terrain if they started in it otherwise they stop moving. Shoot, if they can, at farthest visible enemy unit. Charge if they can, declaring everything within 7" as a target of the charge.
4 - Charging - Move as fast as possible towards the nearest visible enemy by the most direct route. Shoot, if they can, at nearest visible enemy unit. Charge if they can, declaring everything within 12" as a target of the charge.
5 - Fall Back - Move as fast as possible to the closest point outside 24" of the nearest visible enemy by the most direct route. Shoot, if they can, at the nearest visible enemy unit. Will not charge.
6 - Panic - Move as fast as possible away from the nearest visible enemy unit, advancing if possible. Will not shoot. Will not charge.

If a unit just doesn't at all act the way described (Poxwalkers will not Siege, and a Great Unclean One won't Panic), say that the unit has a special rule where they treat "rolls of 1 as a 4 instead" or some such.

20 kabalite warriors are 120 points and have options for splinter cannon and dark lance as well as shredder and blaster. Fast foot speed and a fnp

@ Yarium. Those are some great suggestions, but I'd like to keep it as close to regular 40k as possible, so not really looking to introduce a bunch of rules, just victory conditions and "respawning"

This is basically what I'm thinking:
2 Marine Battalions (UMS and Salamanders respectively) with just HQs and Troops. About 1000pts total
VS
A Recycling Horde of Poxwalkers, a Nurgling unit (why not?) and later Plague Bearers. I may even add a DG Daemon Prince (that does not Recycle) as a "Boss Battle"

Played on a 2'x4' table in which the Marines set up 12" form a short table edge and always goes first.
The first "wave" will be 2 units of 15 Poxwalkers and 3 Nurgling bases. The PWs deploy opposite the Marines and shamble forward, the Nurglings "infiltrate" near the Marines.
The Nurglings always "respawn" in their turn if completely destroyed in a prior turn and arrive anywhere outside 9" of an enemy unit

The horde just tries to get into melee with the closest marine units.
Once all 30 PWs are slain, the next "wave" begins. 2 units of 10 Plague Bearers (with unit champion, instrument and icon, why not) arrive anywhere on the table outside 12" of an enemy unit (to give the Marines at least 1 turn to shoot them).
These units continue to "respawn" like the Nurglings

During the game both the UM and Salamander player will keep track of the models slain by their units, earning 1 kill point per model slain (neither gain points for enemies lost to Morale). In the Horde turn after either player reaches 50 pts, a Daemon Prince arrives from Reinforcements.

The game ends when either the DP is slain, earning a major victory for the Marines, or when all Marine models are slain.
If both cases, the Marine player with the most KPs wins.

-

Best in terms of rules is going to be guardsmen.

Ork boys in terms of cheapness, unless you go with 3rd party IG models.

 Elbows wrote:
I'm going to go out of left field, and say...Primaris Intercessors.

A bizarre choice perhaps, and I haven't seen it done. But I don't know what most armies would do against 100+ Intercessors. That's a feth ton of wounds, and enough bolter shots to start killing almost anything. This is the next power build!

I play with about 50 all the time. It is basically the best way to run marines. it hasn't caught on because it still pretty bad compared to what other armies can do with hordes.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Elbows wrote:
I'm going to go out of left field, and say...Primaris Intercessors.

A bizarre choice perhaps, and I haven't seen it done. But I don't know what most armies would do against 100+ Intercessors. That's a feth ton of wounds, and enough bolter shots to start killing almost anything. This is the next power build!

I play with about 50 all the time. It is basically the best way to run marines. it hasn't caught on because it still pretty bad compared to what other armies can do with hordes.

If DW no longer had access to SB/SS vets, I'd expect DW Primaris list to make decent showings for this reason

-

I use them. They're okay. The 36" kraken rounds are very useful.

 Galef wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Elbows wrote:
I'm going to go out of left field, and say...Primaris Intercessors.

A bizarre choice perhaps, and I haven't seen it done. But I don't know what most armies would do against 100+ Intercessors. That's a feth ton of wounds, and enough bolter shots to start killing almost anything. This is the next power build!

I play with about 50 all the time. It is basically the best way to run marines. it hasn't caught on because it still pretty bad compared to what other armies can do with hordes.

If DW didn't no longer had access to SB/SS vets, I'd expect DW Primaris list to make decent showings for this reason

-

This is just my opinion but I think the DW primaris are playable compared to SB vets. My favorite build with them is auto bolters and I get a really mobile unit running up the board with 2 aggressors and a PF of the sergeant so you also have 7 power fist attacks. If they get those aggressors into position it really pays dividends. When it comes to vets you have to deep strike them. IMO you should be deep striking 10 man hellblasters or intercessors with 5 hellblasters. Ether way though. A primaris horde sure is fun. I can attest to that. I draws a lot of attention "look at all those marines".

I think that just a recycling horde and kill count might get boring. The best games are the ones that keep finding ways to change the formula. If the formula you want to follow is a "kill the waves", then here's some other ideas:

Wave 1:
Enemies:
10-man Cultists (any armament)
10-man Cultists (any armament)

- arrive 18" away from each player's army, then move forward.
- This gives them the easiest possible challenge. T3, 6+ save, horrible Leadership.
- Introduces the basic concepts of the game.

Wave 2:
Enemies:
10-man Cultists (any armament)
10-man Cultists (any armament)
10-man Cultists (any armament)
10-man Cultists (any armament)

- arrive 18" away from each player's army, then advance forward.
- The baddies are getting crazy! This gives them their first test, and if they can't kill all of them, introduces the idea that you may or may not choose to help your team-mate.


Wave 3: BOSS WAVE
Enemies:
10-man Cultists
10-man Cultists
5-man Chaos Space Marines
1 Exalted Champion

- arrive 18" away from each player's army, then advance forward.
- the Exalted Champion should be worth extra, but the Chaos Space Marines keep him flanked so that it's hard to reach him.


Wave 4:
Enemies:
10-man Cultists (any armament)
10-man Cultists (any armament)
10-man Plaguebearers
10-man Plaguebearers

- arrive 18" away from each player's army, then move forward.
- new enemy unit type!
- I recommend dealing with Plaguebearers before Poxwalkers, simply because of how Poxwalkers break a rule of the game that they don't suffer from morale. Plus, Poxwalkers are a great "upgrade" to the cultists that will happen in later waves.


Wave 5:
Enemies:
10-man Plaguebearers
10-man Plaguebearers
3-man Nurglings
3-man Nurglings

- arrive 18" away from each player's army, then move forward. Nurglings arrive 12" away, then move forward.
- new enemy unit type!
- each time we're adding something, a part of the rules are changing. Nurglings are "Squishable" and much weaker than Plaguebearers, but this can highlight how starting closer can be a big bonus.


Wave 6: BOSS WAVE
Enemies:
3-man Nurglings
3-man Nurglings
3-man Nurglings
1 Sloppity Bilepiper
1 Beast of Nurgle / Chaos Spawn

- arrive 12" away from each player's army, then move forward. The Bilepiper starts 18" away and moves forward.
- bonus points for both the Bilepiper and the Beast.


Wave 7:
Enemies:
10-man Cultists
10-man Cultists
20-man Poxwalkers

- arrive 18" away from each player's army, then move forward.
- Poxwalkers receive benefit of the Dead Walk Again stratagem all the time (any slain models adds to the Poxwalkers)
- new unit type!
- Poxwalkers also showcase how being morale-resistant can be a big plus.


Wave 8:
Enemies:
10-man Poxwalkers
10-man Poxwalkers
10-man Plague Bearers
10-man Plague Bearers

- arrive 18" away from each player's army, then advance forward!
- another "test" wave. This one is going to start putting some real pressure on them.


Wave 9: BOSS WAVE
Enemies:
30-man Plaguebearers w/ Squad Leader + Icon
1 Poxbringer

- arrive 18" away from each player's army, then move forward.
- Plaguebearers are getting upgraded by their squad size and the nearby Poxbringer!
- Introduces Psychic Powers to the game.



And just keep going, with a Boss Wave every 3rd wave or so. Ultimate wave should be something like:

Wave n: FINAL WAVE
Enemies:
3-man Nurglings
3-man Nurglings
30-man Plaguebearers w/ Squad Leader + Icon
10-man Poxwalkers
10-man Poxwalkers
10-man Cultists
10-man Cultists
5-man Chaos Space Marines
5-man Chaos Space Marines
1 Chaos Lord
1 Exalted Champion
1 Poxbringer
1 Great Unclean One

- arrive 18" away from each player's army, then move forward. Nurglings arrive 12" away and move forward. Poxwalkers and Plaguebearers advance forward.
- the last wave! Can you survive?

Adding Cultists as the first wave and CSMs in a later wave I can do. The rest I am limited by the models I own/am willing to buy for this. I really only want to buy 1, MAYBE 2 boxes of chaff for this.
That's why I want to "respawn" the units instead of just adding new ones.

So I could have the 1st Wave be 3x 10 Cultists and 3 spawning Nurglings.
2nd Wave would be 2x 15 Poxwalkers
3rd Wave 2x 10 PBs (respawning) and 2x 5 CSM with 1 Autocannon per unit.
4th Wave would be a Daemon Prince

With the exception of the respawning Nurglings and PBs, each new wave comes in after the last wave is destoyed

-

I wish you lived up here in the North, I'd gladly lend you mine!

 Galef wrote:
Ork Boys, why didn't I include those?

I'm thinking for now this would be a small game and the "horde" units would be "never ending", with each completely destroyed unit coming in at full strength as Reinforcements the next. I'm working on the specific objectives, but the game will end once the non-horde player has no models left on the table. They basically just need to live long enough to achieve some goal.

-

So basically the 2E Tyranid Attack mission? That was always a fun time.

I'm going to go for a wacky outside the box option: Fenrisian Wolves.

I've had a lot of luck running several maxed-out units of them. Sure, they aren't the cheapest, nor do they have a good save, and don't hit totally hard. They are decently good in all areas (especially when you have a buffing leader nearby), and are pretty fast. Also, no one expects or deals with the horde of 48 models sweeping up one side of the board when they are dealing with marines pounding them from the other side.

 G00fySmiley wrote:
that 360 grot list is doing pretty good

Someone is using the 360 Grot list?!?

Regarding scenarios like this, I recommend looking at "Ork's Drift" aka Battle for the Glazer's Creek where a 1000 point army has hastily fortified a farm and is attacked multiple times in a row by a randomized pursuing force (3-5 waves). Each wave breaks when they lose half their models and the defender rolls for all their losses if they died, go to a field hospital for a quick rest or just stand up bruised for the next wave. If any defenders live to break the final wave, they win. Very fun, played IG vs. DG and enjoyed it a lot.

8th edition version was in a White Dwarf maybe a year ago, original two decades ago. Googling should find it.

So I got 1 box of Plague Monks and another is on the way. That'll give me 40 horde models. I also have 10 Cultists that can be split up into each unit (2 per unit as Champions and Flamer models)

That could give me a First wave of 50 Cultist (5 minimum units) that would deploy and rush the Marines.
It will also give me 2 units of 3 Nurglings for the first Wave as well.
The next wave can be the same models as 2 big units of Pox Walkers.

For the third Wave, I actually think Plague Bearers might be too much. The T4, 5++ and Disgustingly Resilient all combined might be a bit too durable, especially since they'll be dropping in a potentially charging (+1 to charge with Instrument) the Marines directly.

Plus, the Plague Monk are quite small, so T4 probably isn't right for them. I'm modeling them with 2 knives, so lower S/T with more attacks would be better
I think Deamonettes, or rather "Daemonites", would be a better 3rd Wave unit for them to fit. And at that point in the mission, I'd have the 2 Nurgling units respawning as well as the "Daemonites".
I think for this Wave, I also need to add 1 CSM unit (maybe Chosen) as the unit needing to be destroyed to prompt the next wave, which will just by the Daemon Prince (and all the respawning units).

For the Marines, my boys have opted to take a Battalion each consisting of 1 Terminator Captain, 1 Primaris LT, 2x 5 Intercessors and 1 Tactical unit with Flamer, Combi-Flamer Sgt and 6 Bolter Marines.
All Sgts have Chainswords, Captains have Relic blades & Stormbolters.

Hopefully they'll have the tools to mow down the hordes with minimal casualties before the DP comes in a wrecks face

-

Breton wrote:

 G00fySmiley wrote:
that 360 grot list is doing pretty good

Someone is using the 360 Grot list?!?

i had the 100 wrong, 260 grots but it did well

By Nick Rose

Ghaz, 3xwiedboys, maddoc, runtherd, 1 SSAG big mek, kaptain Badrukk, nob w/ waagh banner, 1 deffkopta w/ big bomm and tl BS, and 10 flash gitz, plus 260 gretchin

 G00fySmiley wrote:

Breton wrote:

 G00fySmiley wrote:
that 360 grot list is doing pretty good

Someone is using the 360 Grot list?!?

i had the 100 wrong, 260 grots but it did well

By Nick Rose

Ghaz, 3xwiedboys, maddoc, runtherd, 1 SSAG big mek, kaptain Badrukk, nob w/ waagh banner, 1 deffkopta w/ big bomm and tl BS, and 10 flash gitz, plus 260 gretchin

Guy in my local area has just painted like... 210 grots and has another 60 arriving for his grotline artillery list. It looks amazing, pretty fluffy and getting my Lord of Change gunned down by S2 bb gun fire was... sobering.

Scenario update: Started playing my scenario, in the middle of Wave 3 (Daemonettes just arrived) but had to "pause" because we all have bedtimes

After 5x10 cultists, 2x20 Poxwalkers and 2x3 "respawning" Nurglings, only 1 Intercessor is wounded and no other Marine casualties.
So overall, just as planned. I think in the future, however, we may just skip the 1st wave of Cultists since they didn't get a chance to do anything. We'll just start with the PoxWalkers going first.

At this point in our game, 4 units of 10 Daemonettes with Icon/Instrument have dropped in and are ready to charge, so hopefully some Marines will start dropping soon. Each Daemonette unit will respawn in the Horde turn after thay are completely destroyed
The next wave with be the Daemon Prince (boss battle).

All in all, it's been fun and both my boys are enjoying stealing the lead on VPs between each other. I just think the first wave might be a bit too pointless since the Cultists will never be able to engage the Marines. Best to just start with Pox Walkers

-

Thanks for the update! Yup, the Cultists are a good easy-mode. I agree, the first time through it's a great way to just learn the mechanics of measuring and rolling and stats, etc. After that, you're pressing "Skip the Tutorial"

 Yarium wrote:
Thanks for the update! Yup, the Cultists are a good easy-mode. I agree, the first time through it's a great way to just learn the mechanics of measuring and rolling and stats, etc. After that, you're pressing "Skip the Tutorial"

Agreed. And my boys already know the game mechanics well enough. I wanted them to get overwhelmed, but I just don't have enough bodies to do it with Cultists.
But admittedly, they each have a Captain & Lt, so they are getting plenty of rerolls.

I think I might change things up a bit. Have each player deploy with just an Lt and 2x5 Intercessors. Their Capts will be in tactical reserves and become available to each player once that player earns 20VPs (1VP pre model killed). They can drop in via the Terminator rules.
Wave 1 of the Horde will be 2x20 Pox Walkers and 2x3 resawning Nurglings
Wave 2 will be 4x10 Daemonites (same models, but using Daemonette stats as "fast zombies"). Each unit respawns the turn after they are destroyed
Wave 3 will be the Daemon Prince who arrives the turn after the Daemonettes arrive for the first time

The game ends when either the DP is destroyed, or all Marine models from a single Chapter are destroyed. The Marine player with the highest VPs wins

-

Respawning as destroyed leads to gaming the system. Just tie them up instead of killing them! You might not have the models to spawn independent of what's removed though.

Also, it might be more ideal for wave 2 to include regular zombies and nuglings in addition to some "better" zombies (of whatever flavor).

Might want to include some cultists with the zombies - for more variety.

I would say guard, and plague barers are definitly the best horde units in the game. point for point, plague barers are the best if you take something to cast miasma and they have 30 models in the unit. Having a -2 to be hit, and having mathematically a 3++ against damage 1 weapons its really good.

Bharring wrote:
Respawning as destroyed leads to gaming the system. Just tie them up instead of killing them! You might not have the models to spawn independent of what's removed though.

Also, it might be more ideal for wave 2 to include regular zombies and nuglings in addition to some "better" zombies (of whatever flavor).

Might want to include some cultists with the zombies - for more variety.

Ideally you could be right, but if they just tie them up, they aren't getting kills and if they are in combat, they can't shoot. That will make they very vulnerable to the DP coming in and doing whatever it wants.
Also, as I'm using the same models for this, it would be hard to distinguish which units are using which "stats", which is what originally prompted me to use "Waves" in the first place.

Wave 1 being unsupported, slow movie Zombies that hit like wet towels (Pox Walkers)
Wave 2 being unsupported, fast moving Zombies that have more punch (Daemonettes)
Wave 3 being the same as wave 2, but with a DP (or maybe even Be'lakor) as the boss battle and giving the Daemonettes reroll 1s to hit.

We'll see how it goes tonight as we finish the game.

-

Gir Spirit Bane wrote:


Guy in my local area has just painted like... 210 grots and has another 60 arriving for his grotline artillery list. It looks amazing, pretty fluffy and getting my Lord of Change gunned down by S2 bb gun fire was... sobering.

I put that idea - the 360 Grot list - in the Army list section a while ago just as an idea. I don't play Orcs, and was just playing with some of the stupid rules issues GW has, and people thought I was nuts and it wouldn't do well. I didn't go as heavy on the HQ's and so forth, though. I think I had some bare bones bosses, 12 mobs of 30 Grots, various Fightas/Bombas on the theory I had 60 Grots to park on every objective just to screw with people. I knew it wouldn't be a bad list, but I'm entertained to hear it might have been an even better concept than I had originally thought.

Edit to add: As mentioned I was just theory-hammering with the list, but one of the things I suspected was sneaky about it was Dangerous In Large Numbers. People like to finish off unit A before Unit B, but the Grots lose a lot of power as soon as they drop under 20. If you try it again, think about mowing each grot mob down to 19 or less as fast as possible. I think it's usually going to be more important to get 2 30 model mobs (22 casualties) under 20 than to kill off one entire 30 grot mob (30 Casualties).