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Overread wrote: One bad situation like this really shouldn't burn a whole company to the ground - nor should we wish it too. A bad situation yes, but there's a difference between a company that suffers for its bad actions for a while and one which we wish to see utterly destroyed.
If you scroll up meatybtz makes a pretty compelling case, it seems this isn't the first time GSW has acted in bad faith.
meatybtz summarized the current situation. At least I don't see anything regarding anything that happened in the past.
Correct. My statements are in regard to the current situation and the whole double-down bad on "offering that she review THEIR product". Which in the business world is something I understand completely and is something akin to "bullying", where a company attacks a protected 3rd party reviewer with some kind of frivolous suit (common here in the States).. when called on their actions, knowing the 3rd party does not have the money to defend against the suit, the bullying corporation says.. of course we will all let this slide if you review OUR product. It's a hint of we will smash you if you don't give us a public "ehem". It's dirty, but it isn't uncommon in the legal and corporate world. But it is in VERY bad taste for a small corp to do this to an even smaller youtube channel. Remember that the copyright strike effects revenue from the channel. This puts the reviewer in position as having "standing" (a legal term, usually means a law or action has caused factual harm) for a suit if she wanted it, even in the EU she has grounds.
So with all the above, understand this.. I have bought from GSW. I have bought several times. They were fast shipping. Their product was "as advertised". Prices were reasonable. Shipping charges were extremely reasonable. Up until THIS POINT.. my plans were to continue to shop with them for greenstuff rollers and some nifty other items to make cool stuff like hoses and tentacles.
However, again, we are a small community. Wargamming is a SMALL community. Even accounting world wide. We don't need this kind of thing in our community and we can vote for it. GW is the only corporation big enough to survive it's own PR disasters, but it always ended up costing them a lot of money, they are just big enough to not die outright from foot-in-mouth disease. GSW is not that big. I'd hate to see them go. They've got some nifty product. They've been good to deal with. But this kind of thing should be nipped in the bud wherever it appears.
Now if GSW works at remediating this disaster, which should in fact go beyond a "we are sorry" letter because they cause harm, I'd review their standing and even comment positively if they can find some way to unravel this PR disaster in a positive fashion. Mind you, that isn't an easy thing to do. But right now she deserves more than just a "wesa saweeee".
Anyways I will reiterate clearly, GSW has been a great company to deal with up till this moment. I understand protecting your Trademark but if you want to swim with the big fishes then you MUST understand the LAW and weaponizing the DMCA as a tool when it is in fact an illegal use of said tool is usually something only large corporations with deep pockets can get away with.
Again, a 3rd Party Independent Review of any given product is completely exempt from the controls of copyright and trademark. A PAID review is not so protected as it is considered an ADVERTISEMENT by the company paying for the review. This is also different from "free stuff reviews" which are not considered "advertisement", esp if said product must be returned after the review if such product can be (paints for instance are not such an animal , nor are brushes or much of anything in our hobby). It is common to say.. hey please check out our latest product. No money is attached to the review and product is sent in order that the reviewer may review it and thus is not legally considered payment.
I know the legal world is pretty much bullcrap on the highest order with convoluted meanings and edge cases and exceptions to rules where rules are exceptions.. yeah.
So.. ball is in GSW's court. I am eager to see how things pan out. I'd like to be their customer again.
I wanted to add here in the edit that I've even sent them a letter detailing such, using legal terms and recommendations that in the future they seek better legal counsel and that I fully support the defense of copyrights and trademarks by small or large companies but one should do so judiciously as well as that I like their products and would like to shop with them again considering they find a way to right the wrong done.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/01/02 20:09:47
macluvin wrote: This is as douche baggy as the spots the space marine debacle. Could you imagine what this company would try to pull if they had actual power and money? I’d say it’s best to nip this one at the bud before they become actually important and influential to the hobby.
They kind of are at this point already. They are the only source of procreate I am aware of, and the only reliable source of green kneadatite putty in the large stick format. Any other place I can find is selling it is at twice the price they do.
I also have not seen any other site that sells kneadatite brown.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/01/02 20:12:30
nekooni wrote: f
Youtube is the one mostly at fault here, in my opinion. I can believe that a small family business has no better understanding of copyright issues than the average person (because that's what they are - just normal people), but youtube should've gone "wait a second - what you're asking us to do is wrong, let me explain this to you" instead of just issuing copyright strikes.
I suspect that, like a lot of big site systems, their whole DMCA system is likely automated with a general bias for assuming that whoever reports is in the right. I seem to recall when the video game market had a blow up a few years back it was basically found that anyone could issue a DMCA without any proof at all and Youtube just automatically assumed the person accused was at fault; who then had to provide actual proof and go through a super slow review system. It was like that for ages mostly because until then no one abused it. I've no idea if Youtube changed it all up after that or not.
It's still the same. YT is a wasteland where companies can accidentally issue takedowns against their own copyrighted material because bots.
nekooni wrote: f
Youtube is the one mostly at fault here, in my opinion. I can believe that a small family business has no better understanding of copyright issues than the average person (because that's what they are - just normal people), but youtube should've gone "wait a second - what you're asking us to do is wrong, let me explain this to you" instead of just issuing copyright strikes.
I suspect that, like a lot of big site systems, their whole DMCA system is likely automated with a general bias for assuming that whoever reports is in the right. I seem to recall when the video game market had a blow up a few years back it was basically found that anyone could issue a DMCA without any proof at all and Youtube just automatically assumed the person accused was at fault; who then had to provide actual proof and go through a super slow review system. It was like that for ages mostly because until then no one abused it. I've no idea if Youtube changed it all up after that or not.
It's still the same. YT is a wasteland where companies can accidentally issue takedowns against their own copyrighted material because bots.
I seem to recall one of the big hollywood studios/cinema groups kept doing that over and over to the point where youtube did actually spot it and make them sort their own system out. When your marketing department keeps getting DMCA from your own legal department something is going wrong!
nekooni wrote: f
Youtube is the one mostly at fault here, in my opinion. I can believe that a small family business has no better understanding of copyright issues than the average person (because that's what they are - just normal people), but youtube should've gone "wait a second - what you're asking us to do is wrong, let me explain this to you" instead of just issuing copyright strikes.
I suspect that, like a lot of big site systems, their whole DMCA system is likely automated with a general bias for assuming that whoever reports is in the right. I seem to recall when the video game market had a blow up a few years back it was basically found that anyone could issue a DMCA without any proof at all and Youtube just automatically assumed the person accused was at fault; who then had to provide actual proof and go through a super slow review system. It was like that for ages mostly because until then no one abused it. I've no idea if Youtube changed it all up after that or not.
It's still the same. YT is a wasteland where companies can accidentally issue takedowns against their own copyrighted material because bots.
The takedown request was a manual one, though, not automated, according to the video's screenshots, and that's further corroborated by GSW's response. So it was deliberate, not accidental.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/01/02 20:30:20
This is such a nothingburger of a story as GSW made a mistake, owned up to it and now a Youtuber no one has heard of had lots of free marketing.
I'm surprised this story popped up on Dakka so late as it's already a dead story and several of hobby groups/sites I'm in have banned any further discussion about as people keep trying to make it a fight over copyright laws (which this is trademark so it's a dumb fight) and white knights who've decided a small company should be run out of business for making a mistake (but no mention on how the Gorilla in the hobby couldn't do a simple trademark search before launching their line).
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/01/02 20:58:06
Yeah like...its sucks but damn i'm not boycotting Greenstuff World. Their rollers, resin skulls and actual Greenstuff is awesome!
Commodus Leitdorf Paints all of the Things!! The Breaking of the Averholme: An AoS Adventure
"We have clearly reached the point where only rampant and unchecked stabbing can save us." -Black Mage
Yup. I thinks pretty terrifying how drummed up folks are getting here. Even if it was intentional, OK they owned up to it and apologized. Not sure what else folks are expecting from them. I guess the "right" thing to do would be to just shutter their business /s
Seriously, this isn't that big of a deal.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/01/02 20:47:15
Monkeysloth wrote: This is such a nothingburger of a story as GSW made a mistake, owned up to it and not a Youtuber no one has heard of had lots of free marketing.
I'm surprised this story popped up on Dakka so late as it's already a dead story and several of hobby groups/sites I'm in have banned any further discussion about as people keep trying to make it a fight over copyright laws (which this is trademark so it's a dumb fight) and white knights who've decided a small company should be run out of business for making a mistake (but no mention on how the Gorilla in the hobby couldn't do a simple trademark search before launching their line).
As far as I know, GSW released their line on december. When was Vallejo's released?
EDIT: Nope, looking further, it looks like GSW's chameleon paint sets were released Q1 2019.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/01/02 20:52:45
MiguelFelstone wrote: This popped up on my UTube this morning, am i reading this correctly they copyrighted the term "Colorshift"?
GSW obviously made a mistake, but apologized and seem to have tried to make it right. Still, a really bad move, that will obviously cost them some business in the short term at least.
However, the positive outcome is that this youtube reviewer's channel has gotten a ton of traffic! Best way to make this right, imo, isn't to boycott GSW, but to do the positive thing and subscribe to her channel . Would be sweet to see her review their stuff and compare it to Vallejo's, too
Monkeysloth wrote: This is such a nothingburger of a story as GSW made a mistake, owned up to it and not a Youtuber no one has heard of had lots of free marketing.
I'm surprised this story popped up on Dakka so late as it's already a dead story and several of hobby groups/sites I'm in have banned any further discussion about as people keep trying to make it a fight over copyright laws (which this is trademark so it's a dumb fight) and white knights who've decided a small company should be run out of business for making a mistake (but no mention on how the Gorilla in the hobby couldn't do a simple trademark search before launching their line).
Yeah, I'm not buying the call for outrage here.
GSW was certainly in the wrong here and certainly deserves full well to be chastised, but ran out of business? I'm not buying it. There was essentially no actual harm done here, so calling for harm in return hardly seems justified to me.
"Wir sehen hiermit wieder die Sprache als das Dasein des Geistes." - The Phenomenology of Spirit
Oh, they fethed up, there's no doubt about it. But going out of business on account of a single stupid mistake? I wonder how anyone clamoring for that would like to have it happen to their livelyhoods.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/01/02 20:55:34
Exactly. The initial outrage was justified and GSW owned up, got the strike removed and apologized. They don't have a history of this and if they do it again then I think that changes the discussion but for now it's such fake internet outrage as the problem was solved before most of the outrage started.
Their full apology to Naomi and her channel seemed pretty sincere. I don't think it's worth escalating, given that Green Stuff already did the knee-jerk reaction thing.
BTW, watch Sword & Steel. It's a fun channel. I'm pretty sure Melody is high all the time, but other than that...
AngryAngel80 wrote: I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "
yes but trademarks can only apply to a narrow field. So both color shift and chameleon TM they have only apply for paint and might only apply for acrylic paint depending on how it was granted.
They cannot be applied to other product unless they apply for a TM for those and have some product they make it would apply too.
As for common words. Take issue with Spanish and EU law not the people following it.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Their full apology to Naomi and her channel seemed pretty sincere. I don't think it's worth escalating, given that Green Stuff already did the knee-jerk reaction thing.
BTW, watch Sword & Steel. It's a fun channel. I'm pretty sure Melody is high all the time, but other than that...
First video I check and one of them is randomly singing sentences, no ta. I'm sure they're very nice, but not for me.
As for the thing wot is riling folk up: meh? It was a garbage move, no doubt, and I hate people who file trademarks for common-use descriptive terms for their products as the names for their products, but this is hardly on the scale of GW Legal's long reign of terror. Not only was the action obviously baseless, the only response GCW could ever make to it inevitably becoming public knowledge is the grovelling apology they ended up giving, there was never any realistic prospect of a serious legal threat to this YT channel, so it's hard to muster up much outrage.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/01/03 06:02:00
"Your society's broken, so who should we blame? Should we blame the rich, powerful people who caused it? No, lets blame the people with no power and no money and those immigrants who don't even have the vote. Yea, it must be their fething fault." - Iain M Banks
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"The language of modern British politics is meant to sound benign. But words do not mean what they seem to mean. 'Reform' actually means 'cut' or 'end'. 'Flexibility' really means 'exploit'. 'Prudence' really means 'don't invest'. And 'efficient'? That means whatever you want it to mean, usually 'cut'. All really mean 'keep wages low for the masses, taxes low for the rich, profits high for the corporations, and accept the decline in public services and amenities this will cause'." - Robin McAlpine from Common Weal
Auto Air make colour shift acrylic line and Shmicke have something similar for years. And Im sure is more brands like that. Copyright that term is silly. So feth them.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/01/03 07:24:49
This wasn't some cashier who rang up the wrong item, it was a top down company wide decision to trademark a common use term. them.
The Trademark is nothing special and there are worse around, specially if it is a name/word of a foreign language combined with a specific item
People were able to Trademark T-Shirts with "Hello" on it because it was not a common word in the country
The main problem here is YouTube as at the moment they go bonkers about Copyright claim and it does not matter if it is Copyright or Trademark, valid or not, they go with full power against the user and his channel
this must not have been something initiated from GWS, this is YT overreacting again.
when someone says to stop buying from GWS because of that you need to stop using YT too for the very same reason
Harry, bring this ring to Narnia or the Sith will take the Enterprise
So a company that makes it’s money by providing supplements for other companies models, uses colour wheels displaying other companies paints and now and then, advertises showing other companies models (GW on a few adds) thinks that it’s ok to send out CR strikes? What a joke.
Considering they quite literally leech off of other companies I don’t see how they can even think it’s remotely acceptable.
I’m more than happy to ignore their products from now on.
The fact they pushed CR for those words is a joke too.
Not quite sure how they even managed it since common, every day words aren’t usually allowed to be put under CR.
Out of interest, who owns the term “green stuff”?
Tried to have a look but turned up nothing.
Would be highly amusing if it wasn’t them and someone sent them a CaD.
As a side note, YouTube are always too quick to pull the trigger.
Seen it far too many times now where they pulled a video due to copyright.
I’ve even seen them pull an artists own music as someone reported it as copyright, despite the fact they created it lol.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/01/03 09:29:39
As a side note, YouTube are always too quick to pull the trigger.
It's an automatic system. They pull the vid when a strike is issued, and then let the owner of the vid sort it out. And yes, it's incredibly, gapingly wide open to abuse.
. Would be sweet to see her review their stuff and compare it to Vallejo's, too 
Eldar- 4436 pts
them.