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Karol wrote:

 Stux wrote:


Disagree.

Just to be clear though - I'm not saying that Stormcast are the default humans in the setting. I'm saying that GW use them as the faction new players will go to when they want to play the "good guy human" army.

That is the sense in which they are the default humans of the game. Even if within the lore they are neither numerous nor strictly human.

But aren't they like a bad army, in w40k marines are the flag ship and new player army. In general they have good to very good rules. Stormcasts don't seem to be doing much, at least as winning games goes, in AoS. So fueling new players in to them would be generating a lot of resentment. Specialy as their starter boxs seem to be also bad, as people said here.
Feel strange for a game to have multiple odd and ugly faction, but no good , as in good to play, human faction.

Rules strength is no measure of GW's intentions for an army.

Space Marines have spent the majority of 8e as a mediocre army. It's only since their new Codex that they have been strong. Since it was nerfed a bit, only certain subfactions are still especially strong - others are mid tier. Not to mention that their Codex has loads of units that are straight up bad, eg Assault Marines and Terminators.

Conversely, Stormcast are possibly the easiest faction to pick up and play. Both from a hobby and rules standpoint. Additionally, they were pretty strong when their last tome came out, it's just been left behind as the power in AoS 2e has creeped over the last two years. They'll get a new book before long and most likely this will put them in a much better position.

SCE are not bad, they are middle tier. There really are only a couple "bad" armies. AoS is much more balanced than 40k. Sure there are a couple outliers, but in general its more rock, paper, scissor match ups that will ruin an army moreso than the army itself. The only real bad armies are Sylvaneth and Everchosen. Sylvaneth b.c they literally super nerf them and made their playstyle completely different from the old book and the Trees are worst (they needed a change, but not completely destroyed), long with they NEED the trees. Everchosen is just way to elite with not enough rules to support how elite they are like Ogres/BCR got.

SCE is still a friendly army to play, not much dies super fast, you can still kill most things somewhat easily. The problem with them is more or less a points issue. A few units needs to go down and they could be a top tier army, they have all the tools you can ever want in a book.

Karol wrote:

 Stux wrote:


Disagree.

Just to be clear though - I'm not saying that Stormcast are the default humans in the setting. I'm saying that GW use them as the faction new players will go to when they want to play the "good guy human" army.

That is the sense in which they are the default humans of the game. Even if within the lore they are neither numerous nor strictly human.

But aren't they like a bad army, in w40k marines are the flag ship and new player army. In general they have good to very good rules. Stormcasts don't seem to be doing much, at least as winning games goes, in AoS. So fueling new players in to them would be generating a lot of resentment. Specialy as their starter boxs seem to be also bad, as people said here.
Feel strange for a game to have multiple odd and ugly faction, but no good , as in good to play, human faction.

No, Storm Cast are a pretty solid mid-range army. Easy to get, easy to build, easy to learn & play. Other than the question of their starter box contents you can make a pretty decent list with them & have good games. And they can also ally into every other army on the Order side. So if you later decide SCE isn't quite what you want, but still want to play "good guys" you can keep using favorite units.

As for "no good , as in good to play, human faction"? Bzzt, wrong. What you want is Cities of Sigmar. That books got a steeper learning curve, alot of options, & it's really easy to just make a conglomerate mess of Elf/Dwarf/Human stuff. But you CAN make a decent Human force.

It's really not easy to make any kind of coherent force with Cities. Said it earlier, repeating it:
The book was not well done. There seems to have been no attempt to actually make the Cities into the dominant faction, they just copy/pasted the warscrolls from the subfaction army lists in.

I disagree, I think CoS works well and the problem is that they have not gotten around to adding more cities via White Dwarf yet. The point of the battletome is very much about narrative and theme, one has a ton of different ways to build a viable army.

My main criticism (aside from balance) is more about which cities they chose to include; I feel like Ghur, Shyish, and Chamon should have had representation in the book. Excelsius in particular seems like a major omission.

Yeah the book works together very well actually. There is a lot of open enough rules for the cities to build an army with many different units.

Sure you have a lot of "This hero buff these units" but literally every army has that, you also still have units that buffs everything as well.

My only problem is eternal balance of the book, some things are clearly bad. Yes point changes will fix most of that, but some the unit is just bad itself like the Drakespawn Chariot, even at -20pts per model i still wouldn't take them. They would have to be 50 base and 120 per unit of 3 to even consider taking them, and thats only so i have a fast moving unit to throw away and body block.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
I disagree, I think CoS works well and the problem is that they have not gotten around to adding more cities via White Dwarf yet. The point of the battletome is very much about narrative and theme, one has a ton of different ways to build a viable army.

My main criticism (aside from balance) is more about which cities they chose to include; I feel like Ghur, Shyish, and Chamon should have had representation in the book. Excelsius in particular seems like a major omission.

I agree with this. Though recent Gordrakk lore might point to a Wrath of the Everchosen style book which includes Excelsis rules.

"Adding more cities" won't fix the core fundamental issues of the army, which are that nothing really 'clicks' together. These are supposed to be cities with blended populations and shared military histories--but it might as well be "Grand Alliance Order 2.0".

At least if they had just copy/pasted the damn General's Handbook stuff into the book we would have had Aelf, Duardin, and Freeguild Command Abilities. Same would have been proper for bringing in the various Relics that the races had in there.

But they might not be cities with blended populations. Someone could be using the battletome to represent a different but much smaller city. I certainly plan to eventually. Or more importantly, individual armies may be composed only of one race. It gives people freedom to mix if they want to, but also not mix if they want to. Having that and having both sides of that coin be viable on top of it is difficult to do, and while CoS has its faulty areas I feel it does succeed on that front.

I agree that it does feel like a 'Grand Alliance Order' battletome but I also feel that is a very good thing. I would also note that units do not need keyword synergies to work well together--ironbreakers work well with freeguild handgunners because one is a tough frontline unit and the other a squishy shooting unit. This is how most units in most armies worked for the duration of WHFB, even!

The part that you're ignoring is that "Grand Alliance Order" would have shown you that these factions are separate and that the book was a joke of a copout for keeping these factions present.

The 'Cities of Sigmar' keyword that was added to them? It might as well not exist for all it does for the army as a whole. Taking a Nomad Prince for the Living City, coupled with Duardin and Sylvaneth and Freeguild doesn't actually mesh like it should.

I suppose I simply see the battletome differently, I see a well executed level of mesh that has different races both support each other well and work well on their own. I can make a mixed or mono army with whichever units I want from CoS' long roster to fit my narrative, and be reasonably confident it will be workable on the table. While I would estimate it is at least partly accidental on GW rules design, but the result is a balance that is difficult to strike.

 Kanluwen wrote:
The part that you're ignoring is that "Grand Alliance Order" would have shown you that these factions are separate and that the book was a joke of a copout for keeping these factions present.

The 'Cities of Sigmar' keyword that was added to them? It might as well not exist for all it does for the army as a whole. Taking a Nomad Prince for the Living City, coupled with Duardin and Sylvaneth and Freeguild doesn't actually mesh like it should.

Like I said, there's a learning curve & it's pretty easy to make a conglomerate mess of Elf/Dwarf/Human stuff.
On the the other hand you can make some pretty good mixes as well.

But opinions on how well the book does mixed armies isn't really the point of this tangent. Karol was lamenting the lack of a good (playwise) human army other than Stormcast. CoS gives you that.

I am not playing AoS, so no lamenting is involved. It is strange to not have a human looking faction though. It doesn't have to be humans, it can he elfs or something like that. But AoS doesn't seem to have those, everything is wierd and twisted, even more then w40k, but that is scifi. With something like AoS GW had the option to make more historicaly inspired and normal looking armies, but they didn't.

I mean, I get that people are going to play the best stuff anyway, so for those that do pick the game up the looks don't matter as much, but one has to decide on the game system first. And it is odd to have a system where there are no real humans looking like humans, knights look like space marines, elfs are crossed with animals etc.

I just wonder about the design choices. AoS only brings neutral as feelings go to me

Karol wrote:
I am not playing AoS, so no lamenting is involved. It is strange to not have a human looking faction though. It doesn't have to be humans, it can he elfs or something like that. But AoS doesn't seem to have those, everything is wierd and twisted, even more then w40k, but that is scifi. With something like AoS GW had the option to make more historicaly inspired and normal looking armies, but they didn't.

I mean, I get that people are going to play the best stuff anyway, so for those that do pick the game up the looks don't matter as much, but one has to decide on the game system first. And it is odd to have a system where there are no real humans looking like humans, knights look like space marines, elfs are crossed with animals etc.

I just wonder about the design choices. AoS only brings neutral as feelings go to me

Cities of sigmar and varying Aelf factions (including the new one) fit what you said though.
They are literally in the midst of releasing one currently.

Also, people play a fantasy game generally for that aspect of it.
If they want historical they will play any of the varying historical games.

Struggling to see what this has to do with "Starting forces and budgeting".

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 ingtaer wrote:
What are peoples thoughts on the IDK box?

Honestly its fine, you might not use the Soulrender, but you are saving $10 and getting him for free.

$90 USD

Soulrender $30
Eels $50
Thralls $50
$130 savings of $40.


If you are starting out and want 2 Thrall units and Eels, its not a bad way to start. But sadly IDK is a costly army, so its the best way to get cheap Thralls and Eels at the start. I for sure would tell a new IDK player to get 2 of these boxes right away, 1 King, 1 Boat as a full starting army and tell him to not play with the Soulrenders till later.


To Add: Sadly the cheapest and best way to play is Soulscryers + Kings + Eels, and maybe 1 or 2 Thrall units. Heck i've tested out and even seen others try it with great success 18 eels, 3 Kings, 2 Soulscryers and thats it.
That list is $600 with 2 boats and the codex. Honestly not bad at all. But if you wanted to play with Thralls and Sharks (Sharks are the worst for money) it sucks.

Thanks for the break down, got a king and another box of eels already so might have to pick up some SC boxes.

Karol wrote:
I am not playing AoS, so no lamenting is involved. It is strange to not have a human looking faction though. It doesn't have to be humans, it can he elfs or something like that. But AoS doesn't seem to have those, everything is wierd and twisted, even more then w40k, but that is scifi. With something like AoS GW had the option to make more historicaly inspired and normal looking armies, but they didn't.

CITIES OF SIGMAR.
Go browse:
https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Warhammer-Age-of-Sigmar?N=2070689437+78046592&Nr=AND(sku.siteId%3AUS_gw%2Cproduct.locale%3Aen_US_gw)&Nrs=collection()%2Frecord[product.startDate+%3C%3D+1588758720000+and+product.endDate+%3E%3D+1588758720000]&view=all

See? Human looking humans, Elf looking Elves (those horns you see on some are horned helmets &those animals are their mounts), & Dwarf looking Dwarves.
Ok, it IS annoying that they no longer have Human knights mounted on barded warhorses....

On the making of more historical looking forces.
Gw didn't just not take this option, they actively moved further away from it. Prior to AoS there were more human options in what's now the Free Guilds, an entire force of normal looking mounted knights & peasant infantry (Bretonia) & alot more "normal" looking elf options. And a few more Dwarfs. Most of them can be found listed in the Grand Alliance: Order book from when AoS launched (it's like the 40k Index books) But as things got rolling & the individual army books came out the models got axed & the entries not reprinted. And the poor Bretonians list got moved into online compendiums, Legends, etc - out of sight/out of mind.

And coming soon we'll have more Elf looking Elves.

Karol wrote:
I mean, I get that people are going to play the best stuff anyway, so for those that do pick the game up the looks don't matter as much, but one has to decide on the game system first. And it is odd to have a system where there are no real humans looking like humans, knights look like space marines, elfs are crossed with animals etc.

I just wonder about the design choices. AoS only brings neutral as feelings go to me

I realize that I probably cannot change your mind, but you are largely mistaken in this.
Yes, no matter what the game, there will be that faction of players who only play "the best stuff". They'll always be with us & that's part of this hobby. But there are also plenty of people out there buying, playing, enjoying (and even winning their fair share of games), the rest of it. And what it looks like IS important, even to those WAAC players.

 ingtaer wrote:
Struggling to see what this has to do with "Starting forces and budgeting".

Good point, we seem to have drifted well off-topic.

Bringing things back in but to keep to CoS; there are two start collecting kits, labelled as 'Greywater Fastness' and 'Anvilguard' respectively. However to newcomers I feel it may be worthwhile to note that these can be used with any city, and do not have a particular tie to the listed one other than narrative & theme. Anvilguard, in particular, I would warn any player to stay away from as it is 'the bad one' of the battletome; a very poor set of allegiance abilities. Using the contents of its SC box for any other city is a much better plan.

Goonghammer has a Getting Started with Stormcast article up with a recommended 2000 point starting Sacrosanct Chamber army


You can build that with the Stormcast half of the Soul Wars 2-player starter and the Exorcism Soulstrike set, plus a few other boxes. The Soul Wars set only comes with 8 Sequitors, so to complete that basic list you'll need to buy a pack of the 3 easy-build Sequitors. Soul Wars also only comes with 3 Evocators, but you can fill that out to a full 5-man squad by picking up the Stormsire's Cursebreakers from Warhammer Underworlds. You can convert your Lord Relictor out of one of your other models or buy a loose one off Ebay.

That makes it about $340 retail price for a split Soul Wars box ($80), Stormcast Endless Spells box ($35), Exorcism Soulstrike ($185), EB Sequitors ($15) and Stormsire's Cursebreakers ($25), less if you buy them at online discount. Not bad for a full army

Ok, i will maybe be a little out of topic in a way.

I went to AOS the most economical way. I use my mono 40K Daemons of Khorne army and tried to build something around it (60 bloodletters, 15 fleshhounds, 2 GCS, skulltaker, bloodmaster and the WOK bloodthirster). I bought the Khorne Bloodbound Goreblade Warband and a box of wrathmonger. I never won a game, I still looking to expend and i will waste a lot of money in 2020

 hellpato wrote:
Ok, i will maybe be a little out of topic in a way.

I went to AOS the most economical way. I use my mono 40K Daemons of Khorne army and tried to build something around it (60 bloodletters, 15 fleshhounds, 2 GCS, skulltaker, bloodmaster and the WOK bloodthirster). I bought the Khorne Bloodbound Goreblade Warband and a box of wrathmonger. I never won a game, I still looking to expend and i will waste a lot of money in 2020

Daemons are not as good as mortals, but GW came out with a new book "Wrath of the Everychosen" to help this, I would get that before buying more models (tho you might see a few combos and want a few more kits. at least most of your army will be usable still), and it does heavily help them. They still wont be the best but its a huge start in the right direction. On top of that there will be a point adjustment soon, so expect many daemons to get cheaper. https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Soul-Wars-Wrath-Of-The-Everchosen-EN-2020

Flesh-Eater Courts

Contents;

Terrorghiest/ Zombie Dragon kit. 75$ CAD
Crypt Horror/ Crypt Flayer kit, 3 models. 60$ CAD
Crypt Ghoul kit, 10 models. 25$ CAD (Standalone box comes with 20 models for 50$ CAD)

110$ CAD for the SC, 50$ CAD in savings.

Over all, fantastic box. You can build an entire army out of this, or just grab 2-3 and fill out with more troops or different units.

The Terrorghiest/Zombie Dragon kit builds 4 models. Each type of Dragon alone, as well as each one being ridden by an Abhorrent Ghoul King. The latter makes it a Hero rather than just a monster. Your terrifying beatstick than can completely run over the enemy army if they don't play well or have appropriate counters, which are hard to find.

Crypt Horror/Flayer kit is solid, however the Flayer is the clear better option due to it's speed, decent ranged attack, and melee power all combined.

Crypt Ghouls. Not much to say, they're numerous, cheap bodies but I've seen them buffed up to absurd degrees with stacking buffs, pumping out way too many attacks and fighting twice.

 hellpato wrote:
Ok, i will maybe be a little out of topic in a way.

I went to AOS the most economical way. I use my mono 40K Daemons of Khorne army and tried to build something around it (60 bloodletters, 15 fleshhounds, 2 GCS, skulltaker, bloodmaster and the WOK bloodthirster). I bought the Khorne Bloodbound Goreblade Warband and a box of wrathmonger. I never won a game, I still looking to expend and i will waste a lot of money in 2020

Bloodthrister spam is your friend if you want to lean into the daemon side. 3 Thirsters and Council of Blood seems to work pretty well for people.