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Cronch wrote:
Hammers are cheap to produce and require no skill to use beyond "keep your finger out from under it"?

I'd love to be in the room when you try to tell a blacksmith that.

As Dysartes alluded to...



A Hammer is great for smacking twelfty shades of faeces out of something.

Yet, a Hammer is also one of the most basic tools of building. And in so, so many ways.

As Dysartes said? It takes an amazing amount of skill to use a Hammer effectively in either case.

Breaking it down to the most basic of all basics? A Hammer n00b uses their wrist. A competent and experienced person knows control and power comes from the elbow.

For comparison?

You have a sword. A proper 4’ long double edged of pointy deff.

Some disagreeable tosspot on the internet says “herp de derp, just stab with them the pointy end herp derp”.

Whilst that is ultimately true? It’s far from the full truth.

So, Cronch. Having been called out twice now for your nonsense?

Can we agree you have nothing of any value to add, and you simply retire from this specific thread?

Deadnight wrote:
But my question to you is this catbarf: and bear in mind, I accept your premise of a marine suddenly finding himself up against it. if the marine suddenly realises he's in for a fight, is it fair to also suggest, and imply that the eldar at the other end of the rifle suddenly crapped himself when he felt that mon-keigh turn and lock eyes with him?

Moreso than if the Eldar were staring down a Flayed One, a Tyranid Warrior, a Grotesque, an Enslaver, a Crisis Suit, or any of the other myriad dangerous threats in the universe? No, I don't think so.

It just feels like the worst sort of universe-bending anthropocentrism for Marines to be particularly scary to races that regularly face all these other threats too.

If you're an Iyanden veteran who's fought swarms of millions of Tyranids, seen comrades eviscerated by twenty-foot-tall monstrosities, and looked into soulless eyes and seen nothing but hunger back... why on earth is big man goes fast supposed to be particularly gut-wrenching?

Deadnight wrote:
And yet,
"And they shall know no fear'.

Marines are nothing if not contemptuous of the facts and realities before them. It's one of their most endearing qualities. It's s almost cute.

It's not how the fluff actually portrays them. Remember the taking of the Wolf of Fenris by Huron?
Clearly they know fear .

 catbarf wrote:

Deadnight wrote:
But my question to you is this catbarf: and bear in mind, I accept your premise of a marine suddenly finding himself up against it. if the marine suddenly realises he's in for a fight, is it fair to also suggest, and imply that the eldar at the other end of the rifle suddenly crapped himself when he felt that mon-keigh turn and lock eyes with him?

Moreso than if the Eldar were staring down a Flayed One, a Tyranid Warrior, a Grotesque, an Enslaver, a Crisis Suit, or any of the other myriad dangerous threats in the universe? No, I don't think so.

It just feels like the worst sort of universe-bending anthropocentrism for Marines to be particularly scary to races that regularly face all these other threats too.

If you're an Iyanden veteran who's fought swarms of millions of Tyranids, seen comrades eviscerated by twenty-foot-tall monstrosities, and looked into soulless eyes and seen nothing but hunger back... why on earth is big man goes fast supposed to be particularly gut-wrenching?

you'll notice catbarf in my Analogy, that I didn't specify the Marine would even win. the point I was making is that Marines tend to show up unexpected in warzones, and represent a dramatic "escalation" of danger that yeah it'd back foot someone.
the OP isn't even saying Marines are the ONLY terror troops (cause you're right 40k is filled with them) he's noting quite correctly that the extreme violence, combined with their high speed and precise strikes makes Marines capable of throwing just about anyone into disaary.

as for the eldar bit, I think most people are contesting the idea that ALL eldar are super experiance people who have seen it all. Cronch accuses everyone ELSE of "faction jerking" but his entire arguement is "ohh well it won't work on eldar because they're so special and wonderful all their people have seen everything before"




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

Deadnight wrote:
And yet,
"And they shall know no fear'.

Marines are nothing if not contemptuous of the facts and realities before them. It's one of their most endearing qualities. It's s almost cute.

It's not how the fluff actually portrays them. Remember the taking of the Wolf of Fenris by Huron?
Clearly they know fear .

I rememebr the first time I read that fluff thinking it was a bit odd, a buncha space marines just said "wait don't kill us we'll join you!" it just felt strangely out of character for space wolves in partiuclar.

Uriel Ventris is stated to have experienced dread several times, but that never stopped him. No living being can have absolutely no fear whatsoever, they would kill themselves in a heartbeat. For Space Marines, I don't think that it's so much that they don't feel any fear, it's just that their hormones reduce it and that they are programmed to be able to easily push through it.

About the main topic, I actually think that one thing about the 40k Imperium that is better than the 30k Imperium is that its Marines are arguably more professional and reliable in 40k, largely due to the Heresy weeding out of the chaff and the newer institutions like the Inquisition in reigning in Space Marines. There's no one that comes close to the sheer cruelty of the Night Lords or the apocalyptic nihilism of the World Eaters among the current loyalist Space Marine chapters. People state how much better the Great Crusade era was, but in reality, the legions were pretty much given a blank check to conquer all of humanity however they wanted to, with the only thing holding them back being if the Emperor personally became annoyed with something.

Could also be worth noting the dogged determination to complete the mission. Marines tend to be damned determined. Zeal is a very common trait within the chapters.

Cronch accuses everyone ELSE of "faction jerking" but his entire arguement is "ohh well it won't work on eldar because they're so special and wonderful all their people have seen everything before"

That's literally in their lore. I realize they (and all xenos) have been punching bags for Marines for so long in BL and codices that people tend to forget, but the aspect warriors are supposed to be on par with marine captains in terms of skill and experience. Yes, they are supposed to be special and wonderful, they're 40k's elves.They exist to counterpoint (aesthetic and lore-wise) the brutish and totalitarian nature of Imperium. Of course with 40k turning into Imperium autofellatio simulator, that's been lost in translation.

Cronch wrote:

Cronch accuses everyone ELSE of "faction jerking" but his entire arguement is "ohh well it won't work on eldar because they're so special and wonderful all their people have seen everything before"

That's literally in their lore.

And the inverse is true of the Space Marines.

Yes, they are supposed to be special and wonderful, they're 40k's elves.They exist to counterpoint (aesthetic and lore-wise) the brutish and totalitarian nature of Imperium. Of course with 40k turning into Imperium autofellatio simulator, that's been lost in translation.

My counterpoint to this is that the idea of the elves being surpassed and scared of human brutishness and ingenuity of waging war is also a common trope, and one that I feel fits 40k so much better.

"The Eldarz are just perfect in every way look how special and powerful" feels weaker in comparison to "once glorious and apex race, now fighting for their immortal souls against biologically engineered meat weapons that surpass them made by a crude and ape-like species".
Space Marines being this hyper-lethal answer to even the best of the utterly horrific alien threats against humanity feels better in my opinion of 40k. But, I would like to add, I also want to lean further into "Space Marines aren't heroes, the Imperium is awful, and being a Space Marine is to live a stunted life as a weapon of war for the rest of your days, and beyond" aspect.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Cronch wrote:

Cronch accuses everyone ELSE of "faction jerking" but his entire arguement is "ohh well it won't work on eldar because they're so special and wonderful all their people have seen everything before"

That's literally in their lore.

And the inverse is true of the Space Marines.

Yes, they are supposed to be special and wonderful, they're 40k's elves.They exist to counterpoint (aesthetic and lore-wise) the brutish and totalitarian nature of Imperium. Of course with 40k turning into Imperium autofellatio simulator, that's been lost in translation.

My counterpoint to this is that the idea of the elves being surpassed and scared of human brutishness and ingenuity of waging war is also a common trope, and one that I feel fits 40k so much better.

I don't think I've seen a single piece of fluff in 20+ years describing the Eldar as actually being scared of human foes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Deadnight wrote:

But my question to you is this catbarf: and bear in mind, I accept your premise of a marine suddenly finding himself up against it. if the marine suddenly realises he's in for a fight, is it fair to also suggest, and imply that the eldar at the other end of the rifle suddenly crapped himself when he felt that mon-keigh turn and lock eyes with him?

Maybe a Guardian. . . maybe.

Eldar know of marines, they're probably aware of the capability of marines, but most of them are probably still thinking "Whatevs, it's still just a dumb mon-keigh." until it's too late. I don' think they're generally going to "crap their pants" at seeing a Space Marines fight.

The REAL concern of Eldar is probably something more like: "Watch out for Marines in the strategic theatre. They're crazy aggressive and deploy crazy fast." Eldar rely on being able to dictate when and where they fight, and Marines are probably one of the few opponents that are able to meaningfully disrupt that.

In terms of Aspect Warriors and Space Marines - I think asking if they're going to feel "fear" is asking completely the wrong question.
They're both going to be a little shocked and taken by surprise if ambushed by the other, but they're going to recover quickly and fight back because of their training.

There doesn't have to be a "bUt My DuDeS *aRe* ScArIeRz" answer to this. Circumstance is everything here.

For the Eldar question, it depends on what kind of Eldar, of course.

An Eldar walking the Path of the Warrior and embarking on an Aspect? Probably not. Marines are no scarier than myriad other foes that they've faced (including other Eldar. The Craftworld Eldar know that the Drukhari understand what a soulstone is and what it does, after all...)

An Eldar guardian? Maybe, it depends on their experience. But Space Marines are not megafast compared to Eldar reactions, so the speed won't seem too out of place, nor are they large compared to something like a Wrathguard, which is another common sight to an Eldar, even a guardian.

Really, 'marines as terror troops' only really works against normal human civilians and guardsmen (those they theoretically protect).

No one else much cares, as is shown time and again in the background lore. Genestealer cultists get blanked by the hivemind and fight anyway, eldar have years of experience and their emotionless 'war mask', and orks see marines as a fun challenge, not a threat.

Maybe tau, but mostly they grit their greater good and keep shooting.

Insectum7 wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
My counterpoint to this is that the idea of the elves being surpassed and scared of human brutishness and ingenuity of waging war is also a common trope, and one that I feel fits 40k so much better.

I don't think I've seen a single piece of fluff in 20+ years describing the Eldar as actually being scared of human foes.

Not humans, Space Marines, Custodes, and so on.

And I've certainly read on them being intimidated/offput by those forces.

Voss wrote:Really, 'marines as terror troops' only really works against normal human civilians and guardsmen (those they theoretically protect).

No one else much cares, as is shown time and again in the background lore. Genestealer cultists get blanked by the hivemind and fight anyway, eldar have years of experience and their emotionless 'war mask', and orks see marines as a fun challenge, not a threat.

Maybe tau, but mostly they grit their greater good and keep shooting.

I disagree.
ANY human (so that covers civvies, guardsmen, cultists, traitor guardsmen, genestealer cultists (they're definitely not blanked the Hive Mind, at least not to the extent of being able to shrug off the sheer 'wrongness' of a Space Marine charging at you), Gue'vesa, etc is going to experience transhuman dread.

Tau definitely would experience it too, in however the Tau psyche is conditioned to respond to fear stimulus.

Orks have a variable outcome. In large batches, or when they feel empowered, they're happy for a scrap. Catch them off guard, or stunned, or already demoralised, and you've got easily startled, confused, and panicky Orks instead. So, if the Orks are already preparing for a fight, or they've seen you a mile off, there's no chance. But kill the Nob, or Warboss, or just eliminate them on sentry duty with extreme force, they're going to feel the closest thing to fear.

Eldar and Dark Eldar alike are going to be intimidated and certainly offput by just how deadly an Astartes is. They definitely "feel" superior, but there's no denying that what's coming at them is TERRIFYING in the same way we might react to a primate charging us. Just that Eldar are more likely to do a tactically sensible thing if they can shake that off, and Dark Eldar are more likely to play with it.

The only real forces I can think that just wouldn't experience transhuman dread are other Astartes/trans-humans, Chaos Daemons, Tyranids, or Necrons (and even on the Necron front, Lords who feel a little more attached to their human forms - a la Zahndrekh - might also feel that primal 'wrongness' of Space Marine movement).

At least, as far as I'm concerned.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Eldar and Dark Eldar alike are going to be intimidated and certainly offput by just how deadly an Astartes is. They definitely "feel" superior, but there's no denying that what's coming at them is TERRIFYING in the same way we might react to a primate charging us.

I just don't see why this is supposed to be more the case for a Space Marine than for a Tyranid Warrior, or a Necron Warrior, or an Ork Nob, or anything else in universe that is super deadly and threatening. What is it about a big man in armor going fast that conveys some universal 'wrongness' applicable to the psychology of all the alien races and shared by literally nothing else in the universe?

It feels like I can just sub in 'authorial fiat' in lieu of 'transhuman dread' and nothing changes. Marines are scary because the author says they're scary because they need a reason for them to be the most special scariest thing in a universe already inhabited by lots of other scary things.

You could fluff up anyone in-universe with this sort of writing. 'Yeah, like, Marines are super badasses and feel no fear and all that. But when they see an Eldar coming at them, with incredible speed and killing with the most minute, almost imperceptible movements, that kind of speed and impossible grace on a human-looking figure is just so wrong that they like, can't process it, man. And then even the Marines feel a little bit of fear, because that's just soooo different and they can't handle it.' It's downright masturbatory.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Insectum7 wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
My counterpoint to this is that the idea of the elves being surpassed and scared of human brutishness and ingenuity of waging war is also a common trope, and one that I feel fits 40k so much better.

I don't think I've seen a single piece of fluff in 20+ years describing the Eldar as actually being scared of human foes.

Not humans, Space Marines, Custodes, and so on.

And I've certainly read on them being intimidated/offput by those forces.

Voss wrote:Really, 'marines as terror troops' only really works against normal human civilians and guardsmen (those they theoretically protect).

No one else much cares, as is shown time and again in the background lore. Genestealer cultists get blanked by the hivemind and fight anyway, eldar have years of experience and their emotionless 'war mask', and orks see marines as a fun challenge, not a threat.

Maybe tau, but mostly they grit their greater good and keep shooting.

I disagree.
ANY human (so that covers civvies, guardsmen, cultists, traitor guardsmen, genestealer cultists (they're definitely not blanked the Hive Mind, at least not to the extent of being able to shrug off the sheer 'wrongness' of a Space Marine charging at you), Gue'vesa, etc is going to experience transhuman dread.

Tau definitely would experience it too, in however the Tau psyche is conditioned to respond to fear stimulus.

Orks have a variable outcome. In large batches, or when they feel empowered, they're happy for a scrap. Catch them off guard, or stunned, or already demoralised, and you've got easily startled, confused, and panicky Orks instead. So, if the Orks are already preparing for a fight, or they've seen you a mile off, there's no chance. But kill the Nob, or Warboss, or just eliminate them on sentry duty with extreme force, they're going to feel the closest thing to fear.

Eldar and Dark Eldar alike are going to be intimidated and certainly offput by just how deadly an Astartes is. They definitely "feel" superior, but there's no denying that what's coming at them is TERRIFYING in the same way we might react to a primate charging us. Just that Eldar are more likely to do a tactically sensible thing if they can shake that off, and Dark Eldar are more likely to play with it.

The only real forces I can think that just wouldn't experience transhuman dread are other Astartes/trans-humans, Chaos Daemons, Tyranids, or Necrons (and even on the Necron front, Lords who feel a little more attached to their human forms - a la Zahndrekh - might also feel that primal 'wrongness' of Space Marine movement).

At least, as far as I'm concerned.

'As far as you're concerned' doesn't matter. The setting, the books, the information we actually have about the universe doesn't paint that picture.
Genestealer hybrids and even brood brothers absolutely do get their emotional responses shunted off by their patriarch. It happens time and time again in the books, and they throw themselves into combat without hesitation.

Eldar are never described as 'terrified' of marines. There's a lot of short stories and novels from their point of view at this point. They see marines as crude but dangerous, but they aren't fearful, let alone terrified.

'Transhuman dread' isn't a thing, no Xenos or chaos influenced entity knows or cares what humans are supposed to be like. The only people who get freaked out by marines are Imperial humans, and most of that is reputation, coupled with awe at their weapons, armor and authority (both real and religious). In many situations no one is going to see the being inside the armor and do an examination to realize they're 'transhuman.' Those that win and bother to look at the remains for details are unlikely to be impressed (dark eldar openly scoff at marine biology, tau are culturally and scientifically unlikely to take that route.)

 catbarf wrote:
It's downright masturbatory.

This is the correct assessment. BL is called "bolter porn" for a reason.

Humans are terrified of marines. Xenos, much less so. Most Eldar will probably still see Marines as clumsy and slow.

BrianDavion wrote:
as for the eldar bit, I think most people are contesting the idea that ALL eldar are super experiance people who have seen it all. Cronch accuses everyone ELSE of "faction jerking" but his entire arguement is "ohh well it won't work on eldar because they're so special and wonderful all their people have seen everything before"

Eldars were used as an example. Could replace with other troops for most faction.

BrianDavion wrote:
I rememebr the first time I read that fluff thinking it was a bit odd, a buncha space marines just said "wait don't kill us we'll join you!" it just felt strangely out of character for space wolves in partiuclar.

Yeah? Well I think it explains very well why there is a Chaos Space Marine codex but no Chaos Imperial Guard, Chaos Adepta Sororitas, Chaos PDF, Chaos Mechanicus and Chaos Custodes.
Marines turn very VERY VERY easily.

 ArcaneHorror wrote:
No living being can have absolutely no fear whatsoever, they would kill themselves in a heartbeat.

Not true, my faction include plenty of living beings that can absolutely not fear whatsoever. They are called arcoflagellants and they don't think too much .

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
But, I would like to add, I also want to lean further into "Space Marines aren't heroes, the Imperium is awful, and being a Space Marine is to live a stunted life as a weapon of war for the rest of your days, and beyond" aspect.

Basically, Space Marines are arcoflagellant-light .

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Spoiler:

I disagree.
ANY human (so that covers civvies, guardsmen, cultists, traitor guardsmen, genestealer cultists (they're definitely not blanked the Hive Mind, at least not to the extent of being able to shrug off the sheer 'wrongness' of a Space Marine charging at you), Gue'vesa, etc is going to experience transhuman dread.

Tau definitely would experience it too, in however the Tau psyche is conditioned to respond to fear stimulus.

Orks have a variable outcome. In large batches, or when they feel empowered, they're happy for a scrap. Catch them off guard, or stunned, or already demoralised, and you've got easily startled, confused, and panicky Orks instead. So, if the Orks are already preparing for a fight, or they've seen you a mile off, there's no chance. But kill the Nob, or Warboss, or just eliminate them on sentry duty with extreme force, they're going to feel the closest thing to fear.

Eldar and Dark Eldar alike are going to be intimidated and certainly offput by just how deadly an Astartes is. They definitely "feel" superior, but there's no denying that what's coming at them is TERRIFYING in the same way we might react to a primate charging us. Just that Eldar are more likely to do a tactically sensible thing if they can shake that off, and Dark Eldar are more likely to play with it.

The only real forces I can think that just wouldn't experience transhuman dread are other Astartes/trans-humans, Chaos Daemons, Tyranids, or Necrons (and even on the Necron front, Lords who feel a little more attached to their human forms - a la Zahndrekh - might also feel that primal 'wrongness' of Space Marine movement).

At least, as far as I'm concerned.

Yeah, and the Hive Mind itself will soil it's figurative underwear at the sight of "OMIGOD this is so big and move so fast" space marines, because it cannot phantom something this big moving so fast, let alone create something bigger that moves faster .

I mean, come on, if people can get over lictors or genestealers, I'm sure they can get over marines relatively easily.

Don't most people who come into contact with genestealers and lictors end up dead? I suppose that's one way of getting over them.

Marines being sold as "terror troops" is why Morale doesnt work in an universe like 40k. The only thing that could be vulnerable to morale are normal humans, tau, orks, and Eldar Guardians. Literally everything else is too baddass to feel fear.

In Fantasy it was fine because even an high elf or a dwarf, as high morale as they were, were normal living beings with family, etc... facing agaisnt monsters, dragons, and chaos stuff and your baseline was a normal human.

 Galas wrote:
The only thing that could be vulnerable to morale are normal humans, tau, orks, and Eldar Guardians.

Half of them, the other half are retired aspect warriors.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Yeah? Well I think it explains very well why there is a Chaos Space Marine codex but no Chaos Imperial Guard, Chaos Adepta Sororitas, Chaos PDF, Chaos Mechanicus and Chaos Custodes.
Marines turn very VERY VERY easily.

Gotta say I'm not in agreement with that notion... it's just that when Marines do turn, it's more noticeable and more of a blow for the Imperium.
Custodes and to a lesser degree, Sisters - I'll give you. But fluff confirms there are Renegade/Traitor Guard and PDF, and the Dark Mechanicus - there not being Codexes for them doesn't say anything at all about their relative numbers. Hell, we don't even have a loyal PDF Codex, and yet most planets have one.

There are Traitor Imperial guard and PDF though? Those are actually the IoM's most common enemy, even more so than Orks.

There used to be a codex called the Lost and the Damned that covered them, and Forge World released a volume on them (Siege of Vraks I think?), but for some stupid reason GW thinks that only Chaos Marines deserve the limelight and an extensive range.

Marines fell because they were more loyal to their Primarchs than to the Emperor. Its an allusion to the civil wars within ancient Rome, where it was common for Legion commanders to use their army to remove a political rival.
Sisters are a newer organization that are indoctrinated to be fanatically faithful to the Emperor, so the likelihood of them falling to chaos is low. However, in the possible event of a schism between the Eccleisarchy and the Lords of Terra, it is likely that they will side with the Church, ie, go traitor, out of the belief that they are serving the Emperor.

Imperial Guard have the same problems that the Romans had; self-serving commanders and governors who may or may not be influenced by chaos.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Marines fell because they were more loyal to their Primarchs than to the Emperor. Its an allusion to the civil wars within ancient Rome, where it was common for Legion commanders to use their army to remove a political rival.

TBH with most traitors legions they killed probably half of their own because they didnt turned so is not even like the "chaos legions" were like clones with the order 66.

 Galas wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Marines fell because they were more loyal to their Primarchs than to the Emperor. Its an allusion to the civil wars within ancient Rome, where it was common for Legion commanders to use their army to remove a political rival.

TBH with most traitors legions they killed probably half of their own because they didnt turned so is not even like the "chaos legions" were like clones with the order 66.

I think there was a Forge World volume on that. The Roman Legions probably purged some of their own members as well if their loyalty wasn't certain.

Eldar should fear marines, for one reason:

Marines represent humanity's ability to improve upon itself, to make itself better. A marine is an improved, enhanced human. The primaris are an improved marine.

The eldar are stagnant, moribund, having reached their apex they have nowhere to go. Their own arrogance makes it impossible for them to improve themselves as they can't admit there's any way they could be better than they are now.

The eldar should be fearful. Humans are improving themselves, tyranids are evolving into deadlier forms, the tau increase their technology, orks get bigger, stronger and cleverer.

The eldar stagnate.

Also, how humiliating it must be for a haughty eldar to be defeated and killed, ground into the dirt, by what he sees as nothing but an animal, a "Mon keigh". Such debasement and degradation are likely worse than death to the arrogant eldar.

The Imperium is also stagnant though? That's actually one of the themes of WH40k; humanity was at it zenith, lost it and failed to regain it, resulting in the slowly decaying mess that is the Imperium.

 Matt Swain wrote:
Eldar should fear marines, for one reason:

Marines represent humanity's ability to improve upon itself, to make itself better. A marine is an improved, enhanced human. The primaris are an improved marine.

And the Haemonculi are improving the primaris marine by turning it into a grotesque, what's your point?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Super Ready wrote:
But fluff confirms there are Renegade/Traitor Guard and PDF, and the Dark Mechanicus

Yes, but it apparently take more work. Or maybe it takes the same work for PDF, but, like, if for the same amount of work you can get traitor PDF or traitor marines, which one will you try to get ?

No, traitor guard are actually really common.
Marines going traitor is an uncommon phenomenon, but when it does happen it causes huge problems.
As a rough analogy, traitor guard are trash mobs, like hollow soldiers in Dark Souls. Traitor marines are uncommon but tougher enemies that get a bit more fanfare.

For every traitor marine there's like a thousand traitor guard, PDF and cultists.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
For every traitor marine there's like a thousand traitor guard, PDF and cultists.

But for every marine there is ten thousands guards/pdf, not just one thousand.
So marines fall, comparatively, more often.