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How do?

More mind vomit, from my screen to your screen. And this time it’s my thoughts on why exactly a mere handful of Astartes are capable of tearing the heart out of enemy commands.

Because, post-Heresy, that has been their main use. Against most of The Imperium foes, a successful and overwhelming strike against their command structure makes the Guard’s lives far, far easier. Hence their fleets are predicated to rapid planetary assault.

But let’s dial it right back, and consider even the most basic Astartes Battle Brother.

First and foremost, there is their psychology. Utterly indoctrinated and chemically tinkered with to be Fearless. Now, that does not just extend to Not Running Away. It also means they’re more apt to what we might call Reckless Heroism. Taking that risk, and pulling it off.

Then, there’s their sheer physiology. They go far, far beyond what even our most incredible athletes can achieve. They’re faster, smarter, stronger, sure. But don’t forget to take into account their sheer levels of endurance. These guys can run faster than us, and do so for days at a time. Which in turn means, during combat, they don’t flag or suffer fatigue as we or their opponents might. So not only are they crushing bone with every blow, and shattering rockcrete? They just don’t slow down. At all. Your bodyguards might be highly trained warriors in their own right, but an Astartes will still be fresh as a daisy hours into a street by street cityfight.

And to take one out of the fight? Ho boy, that’s not easy. Chop off an arm, and they’ll probably just pick it up and beat you to death with it for your sheer temerity. Flesh Wounds just.....aren’t a thing for them. They heal super quick, suffer relatively little blood loss - and again, just keep on going. For hours upon hours at a time.

They’re also shockingly fast. At first sight, you might be expecting a Tank....except once close combat is joined, they’re totally DPS.

After that....add in their equipment. All of it horrifying for the foe in various different and interesting ways. Each Astartes is so well armoured, they might as well be a one-man light vehicle. Their basic weapon detonates its targets. I mean, it’s one thing to see Ginger, Topper and Baz shot down by the enemy. But when you’re then covered in Ginger, Topper and Baz’s still warm remains? What the hell does that do to your psyche? And don’t forget, these power armoured horrors are getting back up from (if not simply shrugging off) direct hits from all but your heaviest weapons. They’ve also eschewed camouflage in favour of bright, shiny primary colours. Because they’re just not at all scared of you in the slightest, so why bother trying to hide from you, when they can show such utter contempt for you and your weapons.

That’s just the most basic Bolter armed Astartes. Because it only gets more and more terrifying. Such as an 8’ tall killing machine with a high speed chainsword catapulting himself toward your position with a jump pack....along with his mates.....

And as mentioned at the beginning of this peculiar ramble? All that is going straight for your throat. They’re not bothering to cut through your frontlines. At all. Oh no. Those Drop Pods and Thunderhawks? They’re right on your game and rumbling your Manor. Chances are, by the time you realise exactly what’s being brought down upon you, it’s far, far too late. No time to recall troops to reinforce. Precious little chance of getting out of there. And you can forget your bunker complex proving useful. It simply limits your ability to bring up the level of firepower to stop their rampage.

You forgot the teleporting Terminators. Go from 'some warning' with drop pods and Thunderhawks to ZERO warning, they're in your command room.

That's nice, but it'd work against the tau and rebelling humans.
Necron faced the eldar and old ones at the peak of their power. Eldar are all hundreds if not thousands of years old and saw it all, even the most basic guardian/kabalite. Chaos marines are the same but spiky. Orks are too damn dumb/thick-headed to care and honestly enjoy fighting. And of course tyranids also have no sense of "terror" in normal sense.

So yeah, not much chance to sow "terror" in aliens that are all more experienced/saw much worse things than just a beefy dude in armor.
Still worth trying to kill leaders (though only cause 40k armies operate on medieval warlord-general logic of generals commanding troopers by hand) but the morale impact is just not there

Against Orks, they’re ideal. Locate the Warboss, and strike right at him. Soon as he’s down, we know what happens.

Against Nids, Marines are capable of (literal) surgical strikes against their Bio Ships.

The exact deployment does of course vary from foe to foe. But for the most part, Marines are effing terrifying.

Why do they work?
Watch Astartes.
That's why and how they work

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Against Orks, they’re ideal. Locate the Warboss, and strike right at him. Soon as he’s down, we know what happens.

Against Nids, Marines are capable of (literal) surgical strikes against their Bio Ships.

The exact deployment does of course vary from foe to foe. But for the most part, Marines are effing terrifying.

but that's not terror tactics, that's just surgical strikes. None of this actually causes fear in the enemy, it just causes command disruption. None of that requires terror to work.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Chop off an arm, and they’ll probably just pick it up and beat you to death with it for your sheer temerity.

Now he cant stitch it back, and he can't do the same for his head. Lame, pink, softie 'umies.

Also real men don't use their arms, they use their foe's arm.

Thing is, for the majority of the Imperium's existance, the main thing Marines have been fighting against IS other humans, either putting down a rebellion or conquering the planet.

Fighting against Xenos is actually an outlier. And one where the Marines often fare badly (See Rynn's world, Tyranid invasion of Macragge)

Cronch wrote:
That's nice, but it'd work against the tau and rebelling humans.
Necron faced the eldar and old ones at the peak of their power. Eldar are all hundreds if not thousands of years old and saw it all, even the most basic guardian/kabalite. Chaos marines are the same but spiky. Orks are too damn dumb/thick-headed to care and honestly enjoy fighting. And of course tyranids also have no sense of "terror" in normal sense.

So yeah, not much chance to sow "terror" in aliens that are all more experienced/saw much worse things than just a beefy dude in armor.
Still worth trying to kill leaders (though only cause 40k armies operate on medieval warlord-general logic of generals commanding troopers by hand) but the morale impact is just not there

I disagree somewhat. they will show terror. It's just terror means different things and manifests differently to those foes.

Necrons will bleep and bloop and +++not compute+++, (well, at least those that have a semblance of will).. for them I can imagine the actions of space marines forcing their logic protocols to reboot and seize, and while not 'fear' per se, I wonder what a computer 'thinks' as the malware slowly corrupts it.

Elder? Sure, they've seen a lot. They're also eldar. Full of hubris and arrogance. They don't think much of humans at the best of timew. They might view those pathetic monkeigh as vermin, but imagine that vermin being eight feet tall and coming for you. Imagine the shock and revulsion that those things are what will kill you. All your culture, all your knowledge, all your greatness. Thousands of years of life. And that thing that cannot even comprehend the merest fraction of your greatness is coming for you, after killing (and doing khaine knows what) to your kin of millennia. Trust me, eldar know fear. They won't show it. Or admit to it. But in the dead of night, they feel it.

With orks? Well, in the HH books from forgeworld there's a story from the night lords how they used terror tactics against the orks. Shadow strikes and daggers in the dark. It won't make them fear, but it will enrage them to the point they will belligerent to the point of self destruction. It was actually a very interesting bit of Lore.

Chaos? Well, chaos marines are fundamentally, cowards, raiders, pillagers pragmatists and opportunists. They're individually selfish and ultimately all about self preservation in a way that is incomprehensible to loyalist marines. They strike the weak. A fair fight that they have to engage in? That they can't slink away from? They won't know 'fear' as we understand it, but they'll want away. And they'll justify it as not wanting to bother. Even if it goes the other way, and like the orks, goads them into engaging against their best instincts, the terror tactics work.

Tyranids? Yeah ok, won't argue there. But being honest the only tactic that works against them realistically is attrition and bleeding them white.

Cronch wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Against Orks, they’re ideal. Locate the Warboss, and strike right at him. Soon as he’s down, we know what happens.

Against Nids, Marines are capable of (literal) surgical strikes against their Bio Ships.

The exact deployment does of course vary from foe to foe. But for the most part, Marines are effing terrifying.

but that's not terror tactics, that's just surgical strikes. None of this actually causes fear in the enemy, it just causes command disruption. None of that requires terror to work.

Six of one, half a dozen of the other.

Marines tear the heart out of your command, weakening your overall war effort. So, whilst Nids might never actually feel fear, or even Fear? The Astartes ‘straight at your command’s nads’ strategy still works.

Hit those Synaptic nodes. Force the Hive Mind* to redirect its efforts. Much the same impact results.


*from the hobbyist’s god like perspective and understanding.

I agree with most of Deadnight's take, except for Chaos Marines. Especially in the case of the original Traitor Legions, we know that their burning hatred of the Imperium will often drive them to seek out their loyalist counterparts and cause damage to them, embarrass them, try and sow some of that fear back in return as vengeance for their exile.
If a loyal force manages to commit a successful surprise attack on them? Maybe there'd be some fear there then, probably more likely shock that quickly turns to anger (which I would expect to be the Necrons' reaction, too). But in many cases it's the Chaos forces themselves taking loyal Marines by surprise.

Make a me think of Horus Aximand describing 'transhuman dread':

"Transhuman dread. Aximand had heard iterators talk of the condition. He’d heard descriptions of it from regular Army officers too. The sight of an Adeptus Astartes was one thing: taller and broader than a man could ever be, armoured like a demigod. The singularity of purpose was self-evident. An Adeptus Astartes was designed to fight and kill anything that didn’t annihilate it first. If you saw an Adeptus Astartes, you knew you were in trouble. The appearance alone cowed you with fear.

But to see one move. Apparently that was the real thing. Nothing human-shaped should be so fast, so lithe, so powerful, especially not anything in excess of two metres tall and carrying more armour than four normal men could lift. The sight of an Adeptus Astartes was one thing, but the moving fact of one was quite another. The psychologists called it transhuman dread. It froze a man, stuck him to the ground, caused his mind to lock up, made him lose control of bladder and bowel. Something huge and warlike gave pause: something huge and warlike and moving with the speed of a striking snake, that was when you knew that gods moved amongst men, and that there existed a scale of strength and speed beyond anything mortal, and that you were about to die and, if you were really lucky, there might be just enough time to piss yourself first."

No, marines are more akin the whole Medieval knight shock cav schtick had a baby with stormtroop tactics...

However ther real hammer of the imperium is the guard.
And that for a reason.

Hammers are cheap to produce and require no skill to use beyond "keep your finger out from under it"?

Imagine the shock and revulsion that those things are what will kill you

But...they know what marines are. Most likely faced them many times, even the basic guardian (I'm going by lore, not by game stats which make eldar be basic humans with worse guns and tight pants). They aren't anything new in a galaxy full of hungry hungry demons and monsters.

My point is, marines don't actually do anything that all those long-lived races haven't seen before and dealt with. There is no "decapitating strike" for anything remotely resembling modern military because that's why you have chain of command. It literally exists to prevent this sort of shenanigans and only orks would be susceptible to this kind of tactic in the way 40k loves to describe it. It's not 1400 AD where you saw a banner of your king captured and you legged it off the battlefield.

Except that’s not the case.

Craftworld Eldar are lead by their Farseers, and Autarchs. They’re the ones with the plans and strategies etc.

Take them out, and they’re largely down to squad leaders and Warlocks.

The loss of a Farseer is particular is a heavy blow.

Dark Eldar? A similar but less self destructive structure to Orks, in that it’s all down to how much of a personal power base you have. Take down the Archon or whomever, and their subordinates will have an opportunity their society won’t let them ignore.

And that's why CWE have the distraction Avatar for the big monkeys to show there manly manness by fighting it up, whilst the ones wearing fabulous robes melt you with mindbullets

 Turnip Jedi wrote:
And that's why CWE have the distraction Avatar for the big monkeys to show there manly manness by fighting it up, whilst the ones wearing fabulous robes melt you with mindbullets

except Avatar's aren't something they can just chuck out on a whim. it requires the sacrifice of a life, I don't imagine they do that lightly.

All in the balance, really.

If that sole sacrifice leads to two or more Eldar lives being saved, it’s worth it.

Cronch wrote:
Hammers are cheap to produce and require no skill to use beyond "keep your finger out from under it"?

Imagine the shock and revulsion that those things are what will kill you

But...they know what marines are. Most likely faced them many times, even the basic guardian (I'm going by lore, not by game stats which make eldar be basic humans with worse guns and tight pants). They aren't anything new in a galaxy full of hungry hungry demons and monsters.

My point is, marines don't actually do anything that all those long-lived races haven't seen before and dealt with. There is no "decapitating strike" for anything remotely resembling modern military because that's why you have chain of command. It literally exists to prevent this sort of shenanigans and only orks would be susceptible to this kind of tactic in the way 40k loves to describe it. It's not 1400 AD where you saw a banner of your king captured and you legged it off the battlefield.

you make it sound like eldar fight marines all the time. they DON'T. there are less Marines then there are planets in the IoM, someone could wage war against the IoM for centuries and never see a marine, doubly true BTW with regards to the eldar, of both types, their style of warfare are quick manuver precision strikes via webway, in and out before the enemy knows what hit them, Honestly 90% of the time when eldar meet Marines in combat it's likely the result of poor intelligence, or a MAJOR screw up on the part of the eldar(the remaining ten percent being times when the eldar simply consider it important eneugh to engage marines).

try and imagine this, you're an eldar aspect warrior, you've been fighting the humans on some world, it's important to you because well something something farseerer. and while the humans are everywhere they're not a major threat to you. their weapons are crude, they;re slow, they're poorly armored, they're, frankly, not that bright. killing them is more a child's game then a serious military exercise, suddenly a companions head explodes, and you see a space marine, yes you'd heard about the augmented human warriors, some of the old veterns spoke of them, some even with something approuching grudging respect. but you scoffed. they're still just crude monkey's after all. you shoot at them, to to your horror realize their armor is as effective as any eldar aspect warriors. and then the brute charges. moving at a respectable speed even by the standards of your people. swords are down and you begin to fight. you realize to your horror that this mere monkey is nearly as fast as you. is far stronger, and is armed and armored on par with you...suddenly your "Game" has just turned very very serious..



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
All in the balance, really.

If that sole sacrifice leads to two or more Eldar lives being saved, it’s worth it.

maybe but it's certainly not something they'll do willy nilly.

Was more a snark on how Avatars in fluff tend to get thumped repeatedly by IOM heroes

They are 40k’s version of the Worf Test.

 Turnip Jedi wrote:
the ones wearing fabulous robes melt you with mindbullets

That's Telekinesis, Kyle! ...which is not a psychic discipline Eldar have had access to for a while now.

I think BrianDavion's got the right idea here. It's not a stretch to say that your average Eldar may or may not have faced a Marine - depending on exactly how old they are, and what Paths they have or haven't been on (bearing in mind an Aspect Warrior can return to being a Guardian, if they survive). But they're rare enough that it's going to be a memorable experience compared to the otherwise-ungainly mon-keigh.

man, the marine fluffing here is amazing. Aspect Warriors are apparently just frat boys that crumple when faced with mildly tougher humans. Cause you know, they're definitely more terrifying than demons, tyranid constructs or ork bosses which aspect warriors would be called upon to fight regularly. No, a buff boy in power armor is what would truly break those ancient powerhouses, their puny eldar minds unable to comprehend the GLORY AND POWER of a transhuman in power armor. Just LOL.

Just because other things are also terrifying, doesnt make the impact of having to fight marines any less scary.

They are set up to be disruptive. They have the capability to strike freely and rapidly against any targets they think to be important. They can literally read the mind of the enemy to find the true weaknesses and exploit them. Their weapons are deliberately messy.

These characteristics are not unique to marines. I would suggest Striking Scorpions, and Eldar forces in general, would also have a similar impact. The main difference is that Eldar are hard to hit, but if you can actually smack them with something it will hurt. Marines are easier to hit, but more robust. The psychological outcome is the same. Frustration of being unable to effectively stop the threat, and the fear of knowing this unstoppable force is coming for you, personally.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I would also.say that marines and eldar have to fight in similar ways as they cannot win through numbers alone. Force multipliers, hit and run tactics and very specific, highly targeted combat operations are the only way.for direct combat.

For everything else, marines need to rely on the Guard, and Eldar need to rely on misdirection of forces from other races to compete their objectives.

Cronch wrote:
man, the marine fluffing here is amazing. Aspect Warriors are apparently just frat boys that crumple when faced with mildly tougher humans. Cause you know, they're definitely more terrifying than demons, tyranid constructs or ork bosses which aspect warriors would be called upon to fight regularly. No, a buff boy in power armor is what would truly break those ancient powerhouses, their puny eldar minds unable to comprehend the GLORY AND POWER of a transhuman in power armor. Just LOL.

You mean a thread intended to explore the possible impacts of having to fight Astartes is......discussing Astartes in a positive light?.

Guess my Shill Cheque got lost in the post again...

Not much of an exploration if we start from a priori position that Marines are the perfect terror troops and all arguments to contrary are met with "Necrons will go beep boop and get confused" or "but eldar are arrogant so they'd be terrified by display of competence"

In which case you are correct, Marines are the perfect terror troops and Khorne himself would make a tiny puddle of ectoplasm when faced with a single tactical marine.

BrianDavion wrote:
try and imagine this, you're an eldar aspect warrior, you've been fighting the humans on some world, it's important to you because well something something farseerer. and while the humans are everywhere they're not a major threat to you. their weapons are crude, they;re slow, they're poorly armored, they're, frankly, not that bright. killing them is more a child's game then a serious military exercise, suddenly a companions head explodes, and you see a space marine, yes you'd heard about the augmented human warriors, some of the old veterns spoke of them, some even with something approuching grudging respect. but you scoffed. they're still just crude monkey's after all. you shoot at them, to to your horror realize their armor is as effective as any eldar aspect warriors. and then the brute charges. moving at a respectable speed even by the standards of your people. swords are down and you begin to fight. you realize to your horror that this mere monkey is nearly as fast as you. is far stronger, and is armed and armored on par with you...suddenly your "Game" has just turned very very serious..

Try and imagine this. You're a Space Marine, you've spent centuries putting down human rebellions and purging the mortal forces of Chaos. They're not a major threat to you. Their weapons are crude, they're slow, they're poorly armored, they're, frankly, not that bright. Killing them is more a rote exercise than a serious military engagement.

Suddenly, a battle-brother's head explodes, and you see an Eldar warrior. Yes, you'd heard about pointy-eared high-technology elves, some of the Chapter veterans spoke of them- some even with something approaching grudging respect- but you scoffed. They're still just xenos after all. You shoot at them, and to your horror realize that their reflexes are as fast as any Space Marine's. Then the elf charges, moving even more quickly than you can. Swords come out and you begin to fight. You realize to your horror that this mere xenos is faster than you, has a strength and dexterity far in excess of a human's, and is armed and armored on par with you. Suddenly your 'exercise' has just turned very very serious.

And that's my fanfic for why Eldar are perfect terror troops and Space Marines should be scared witless of them, OC do not steel.

Seriously, a core element to this setting is that everything is over-the-top. Big fast man with gun somehow registering as especially terrifying to beings that have fought ancient demigods, twelve-foot-tall biological killing machines, or regenerating robots with disintegration rays is really contrived. The 'transhuman dread' thing always reads like authors fluffing up Marines as the bestest thing ever, trying to shoehorn Marines to the top of a setting that was originally constructed to make them the underdogs.

'Oh yeah, that twenty-foot-tall living engine of destruction Carnifex was scary I guess... but look how FAST that Warhammer 40,000™ Adeptus Astartes™ Primaris© Space Marine Intercessor (now with Cawl-Pattern Bolt Rifle) is moving! I've just pissed myself both in fear and envy at how awesome he is!'

A coked-up Ogryn running down the street must register as a planetary emergency.

Try and imagine this. You're a Space Marine, you've spent centuries putting down human rebellions and purging the mortal forces of Chaos. They're not a major threat to you. Their weapons are crude, they're slow, they're poorly armored, they're, frankly, not that bright. Killing them is more a rote exercise than a serious military engagement.

Suddenly, a battle-brother fall down without a noise, and you see an Eldar warrior. Yes, you'd heard about pointy-eared high-technology elves, some of the Chapter veterans spoke of them- some even with something approaching grudging respect- but you scoffed. They're still just xenos after all. You try to shoot at them, and to your horror realize that they moved so fast you shoot a few meters behind them. Then the elf charges, with a scream so loud that even your helmet cannot protect you from it, something that literally shouldn't be possible, yet is. While you recovered, she had the time to cut down two more battlebrothers. Your sword come out and you begin to fight. You realize to your horror that this mere xenos will easily dogde or parry all your blows, with lightening fast reflex that you cannot match. Suddenly your 'exercise' has just turned very very serious.

I tried to make it more Eldary.

I still maintain that Sisters of Battle are cooler than marines.
Marines need space steroids and genetic engineering to be effective.
Sisters of Battle just need motivation. That's pretty badass.
Its an entire organization of soldiers who are too angry to die.

Super Ready wrote:I agree with most of Deadnight's take, except for Chaos Marines. Especially in the case of the original Traitor Legions, we know that their burning hatred of the Imperium will often drive them to seek out their loyalist counterparts and cause damage to them, embarrass them, try and sow some of that fear back in return as vengeance for their exile.
If a loyal force manages to commit a successful surprise attack on them? Maybe there'd be some fear there then, probably more likely shock that quickly turns to anger (which I would expect to be the Necrons' reaction, too). But in many cases it's the Chaos forces themselves taking loyal Marines by surprise.

Aye but will they seek them out at any cost, or in anything resembling a fair fight, which was my point? Night lords come to mind. They'll seek them out and humiliate them, and cut them down like dogs, and take their time one with it, and enjoy it one foolish brother at a time. Make it last... marines forcing them into a fair fight? Not terror per se, but forcing them into a position they dont want to be in.

Cronch wrote:Hammers are cheap to produce and require no skill to use beyond "keep your finger out from under it"?

Imagine the shock and revulsion that those things are what will kill you

But...they know what marines are. Most likely faced them many times, even the basic guardian (I'm going by lore, not by game stats which make eldar be basic humans with worse guns and tight pants). They aren't anything new in a galaxy full of hungry hungry demons and monsters.

My point is, marines don't actually do anything that all those long-lived races haven't seen before and dealt with. There is no "decapitating strike" for anything remotely resembling modern military because that's why you have chain of command. It literally exists to prevent this sort of shenanigans and only orks would be susceptible to this kind of tactic in the way 40k loves to describe it. It's not 1400 AD where you saw a banner of your king captured and you legged it off the battlefield.

Eldar arrogance doesnt go away. And neither you nor I can comprehend eldar arrogance on the merely human spectrum of emotion. We are vermin to them. We are filth. As humans we have an almost instinctive memory of disgust towards vermin and creepy crawlies. Seeing it many times won't make that instinctive knowledge of their danger go away. An old man is as likely to go 'eww' when a rat scurries by him as he was when he was three. And want to go and wash his hands. Now imagine that rat was eight feet tall, weilding a running chainsaw and firing explosive bullets. Oh, and tanking your shots like they were rain. It's fearless. It's relentless. It hates, almost to a level that an eldar can respect. It cannot be reasoned with. It will know no mercy. It's coming for you.

An eldar could respect bring killed by a fellow eldar. You know, an equal. It might suck, but there is dignity in it. To be killed by that filth? Yeah, they'll never admit it, but they're feeling something when those Mon keigh are coming for them and it's not feelings of joy.

catbarf wrote:
Try and imagine this. You're a Space Marine, you've spent centuries putting down human rebellions and purging the mortal forces of Chaos. They're not a major threat to you. Their weapons are crude, they're slow, they're poorly armored, they're, frankly, not that bright. Killing them is more a rote exercise than a serious military engagement.

Suddenly, a battle-brother's head explodes, and you see an Eldar warrior. Yes, you'd heard about pointy-eared high-technology elves, some of the Chapter veterans spoke of them- some even with something approaching grudging respect- but you scoffed. They're still just xenos after all. You shoot at them, and to your horror realize that their reflexes are as fast as any Space Marine's. Then the elf charges, moving even more quickly than you can. Swords come out and you begin to fight. You realize to your horror that this mere xenos is faster than you, has a strength and dexterity far in excess of a human's, and is armed and armored on par with you. Suddenly your 'exercise' has just turned very very serious.

And that's my fanfic for why Eldar are perfect terror troops and Space Marines should be scared witless of them, OC do not steel.

And yet,
"And they shall know no fear'.

Marines are nothing if not contemptuous of the facts and realities before them. It's one of their most endearing qualities. It's s almost cute.

I actually have no issues with your premise above. It reminds me of the dow2 trailer from a few years back.

Marines are nothing if not arrogant bellends whose own lack of respect towards their foes, or over estimation of their own abilities gets them into plenty hot water. (It's also why they have absolutely no fear' drop podding into the heart of an enemies base) fear might be stretching it but I can fully expect marines in their arrogance to bite off more than they can chew. There's plenty examples in the lore. They'll deny fear afterwards though and the three survivors will tell a tale of grand pomposity extolling their martial prowess and skill at arms and the chapter sages (bar those of pragmatists like the raptors and crimson fists) will.quietly not record the bit about 'they should have liased with the guard to blast that whole section of the front with all available artillery first' rather than going in swinging their swords in one hand and Johnson's in the other!'

But my question to you is this catbarf: and bear in mind, I accept your premise of a marine suddenly finding himself up against it. if the marine suddenly realises he's in for a fight, is it fair to also suggest, and imply that the eldar at the other end of the rifle suddenly crapped himself when he felt that mon-keigh turn and lock eyes with him?