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catbarf wrote:I just don't see why this is supposed to be more the case for a Space Marine than for a Tyranid Warrior, or a Necron Warrior, or an Ork Nob, or anything else in universe that is super deadly and threatening. What is it about a big man in armor going fast that conveys some universal 'wrongness' applicable to the psychology of all the alien races and shared by literally nothing else in the universe?

Well, going through all of them:
A Tyranid Warrior is totally alien, it's sheer appearance sets it apart from any kind of human equivalent - plus, that's terrifying in it's own right.
A Necron Warrior is slow. It's scary, but it's slow, and while it does have a certain *wrongness* factor, it's more from the aura.
An Ork Nob is, again, alien. It's already *wrong* by virtue of it's inhumanness.

A Space Marine being *wrong* is because it was once human. Because it's generally man-shaped, and man-like, and man-like things *don't move like that*. As far as I'm concerned, a Space Marine moves faster than a Tyranid Warrior or Nob, on the same level as Eldar, with all the weight and power that entails.

If you were to ask me what I think a Space Marine is, your basic Marine, it's that it's all the powerful aspect of every race mixed into one body. The knowledge and adaptability on the battlefield of the Tyranids, the durability of the Necrons, the speed of the Eldar, the close combat prowess of the Orks, the devastating shooting of the Tau - in my eyes, a Space Marine *should* be pretty much superior to most things - but little in number.

You could fluff up anyone in-universe with this sort of writing. 'Yeah, like, Marines are super badasses and feel no fear and all that. But when they see an Eldar coming at them, with incredible speed and killing with the most minute, almost imperceptible movements, that kind of speed and impossible grace on a human-looking figure is just so wrong that they like, can't process it, man. And then even the Marines feel a little bit of fear, because that's just soooo different and they can't handle it.' It's downright masturbatory.

Well, someone's in that spot, and it ain't Eldar, that's all I'm saying.

Voss wrote:

Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Voss wrote:Really, 'marines as terror troops' only really works against normal human civilians and guardsmen (those they theoretically protect).

No one else much cares, as is shown time and again in the background lore. Genestealer cultists get blanked by the hivemind and fight anyway, eldar have years of experience and their emotionless 'war mask', and orks see marines as a fun challenge, not a threat.

Maybe tau, but mostly they grit their greater good and keep shooting.

I disagree.
ANY human (so that covers civvies, guardsmen, cultists, traitor guardsmen, genestealer cultists (they're definitely not blanked the Hive Mind, at least not to the extent of being able to shrug off the sheer 'wrongness' of a Space Marine charging at you), Gue'vesa, etc is going to experience transhuman dread.

Tau definitely would experience it too, in however the Tau psyche is conditioned to respond to fear stimulus.

Orks have a variable outcome. In large batches, or when they feel empowered, they're happy for a scrap. Catch them off guard, or stunned, or already demoralised, and you've got easily startled, confused, and panicky Orks instead. So, if the Orks are already preparing for a fight, or they've seen you a mile off, there's no chance. But kill the Nob, or Warboss, or just eliminate them on sentry duty with extreme force, they're going to feel the closest thing to fear.

Eldar and Dark Eldar alike are going to be intimidated and certainly offput by just how deadly an Astartes is. They definitely "feel" superior, but there's no denying that what's coming at them is TERRIFYING in the same way we might react to a primate charging us. Just that Eldar are more likely to do a tactically sensible thing if they can shake that off, and Dark Eldar are more likely to play with it.

The only real forces I can think that just wouldn't experience transhuman dread are other Astartes/trans-humans, Chaos Daemons, Tyranids, or Necrons (and even on the Necron front, Lords who feel a little more attached to their human forms - a la Zahndrekh - might also feel that primal 'wrongness' of Space Marine movement).

At least, as far as I'm concerned.

'As far as you're concerned' doesn't matter. The setting, the books, the information we actually have about the universe doesn't paint that picture.

I disagree. They certainly paint that picture for me.

Genestealer hybrids and even brood brothers absolutely do get their emotional responses shunted off by their patriarch. It happens time and time again in the books, and they throw themselves into combat without hesitation.

And yet I also hear of those same brood brothers and cultists scattering in the face of a concerted Space Marine attack when their Patriarch goes down.

Eldar are never described as 'terrified' of marines. There's a lot of short stories and novels from their point of view at this point. They see marines as crude but dangerous, but they aren't fearful, let alone terrified.

Crude and dangerous all the same, that still would provoke the same response of "transhuman dread", even if out of sheer self-preservation.

'Transhuman dread' isn't a thing

Kind of is though.

no Xenos or chaos influenced entity knows or cares what humans are supposed to be like.

Except ones that don't exactly experience Space Marines all that much. My main example being Tau.

The only people who get freaked out by marines are Imperial humans, and most of that is reputation, coupled with awe at their weapons, armor and authority (both real and religious). In many situations no one is going to see the being inside the armor and do an examination to realize they're 'transhuman.' Those that win and bother to look at the remains for details are unlikely to be impressed (dark eldar openly scoff at marine biology, tau are culturally and scientifically unlikely to take that route.)

It's not that "oh, let's look at their biology", it's "that's a human warrior fighting LIKE THAT??".

I'm also more than happy to attribute some of that whole "cannot be" from the initial geneseed stuff, and the whole "Primarchs imbued with Warp energy".

All I'm saying is I have reason to believe what I believe, and you have reason to believe yours. But it ain't like 40k's consistent.

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
But, I would like to add, I also want to lean further into "Space Marines aren't heroes, the Imperium is awful, and being a Space Marine is to live a stunted life as a weapon of war for the rest of your days, and beyond" aspect.

Basically, Space Marines are arcoflagellant-light .

I mean, kinda! You're not quite as constantly in pain, and you have some degree of autonomy, but only so far as being a weapon.

Yeah, and the Hive Mind itself will soil it's figurative underwear at the sight of "OMIGOD this is so big and move so fast" space marines, because it cannot phantom something this big moving so fast, let alone create something bigger that moves faster .

I mean, come on, if people can get over lictors or genestealers, I'm sure they can get over marines relatively easily.

If I'm not mistaken, I did say that Tyranids would be unaffected.

 Matt Swain wrote:
Eldar should fear marines, for one reason:

Marines represent humanity's ability to improve upon itself, to make itself better. A marine is an improved, enhanced human. The primaris are an improved marine.

The eldar are stagnant, moribund, having reached their apex they have nowhere to go. Their own arrogance makes it impossible for them to improve themselves as they can't admit there's any way they could be better than they are now.

The eldar should be fearful. Humans are improving themselves, tyranids are evolving into deadlier forms, the tau increase their technology, orks get bigger, stronger and cleverer.

The eldar stagnate.

Also, how humiliating it must be for a haughty eldar to be defeated and killed, ground into the dirt, by what he sees as nothing but an animal, a "Mon keigh". Such debasement and degradation are likely worse than death to the arrogant eldar.

You know that does make a thought pop into my mind. Almost every race has THAT character that's very much into "improvement" usually they're a medic type person. You have Cawl for imperium, Fabius for Chaos, Orks have Grotsnik, Necron's have Illuminor Szeras. And I'm not sure if i'd count Urien, he's more of just about making weird and "pretty" fleshy art sculptures. Eldar are sort of missing that stereotypical character. Maybe you could say Eldrad would fall into that category with his whole, god of death thing.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
For every traitor marine there's like a thousand traitor guard, PDF and cultists.

But for every marine there is ten thousands guards/pdf, not just one thousand.
So marines fall, comparatively, more often.

do you have a soruce for marines falling being statisticly more likely or are you just pulling "facts" out of your ass?

The world of Vraks had 8 million traitors on it. I don't think there were ever 8 million marines.
Not to mention the other countless warbands of traitor imperial guard and civilians.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
For every traitor marine there's like a thousand traitor guard, PDF and cultists.

But for every marine there is ten thousands guards/pdf, not just one thousand.
So marines fall, comparatively, more often.

I don't think that's how that works?
Shouldn't you find the rate of corruption for traitor guard, then the rate of corruption for marines and then compare those to determine who's more susceptible to fall to chaos?

This topic was summed up nicely the other day in a thread I was reading:

"Oh, you think WE'RE the traitors? How many Space Marines fell to chaos exactly? Fully half, was it?"

If fully half of the Imperial Guard fell to Chaos, the Imperium would be up gak creek without a paddle.

there is a reason why the guard is the hammer of the imperator and NOT the marines.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
This topic was summed up nicely the other day in a thread I was reading:

"Oh, you think WE'RE the traitors? How many Space Marines fell to chaos exactly? Fully half, was it?"

If fully half of the Imperial Guard fell to Chaos, the Imperium would be up gak creek without a paddle.

Yeah, and when half the marines fell to chaos it killed the Emperor and broke the IoM, what's your point?
The Horus Heresy was a specific event that happened due to a various set of factors, it is not the norm.

You know most of the Imperial Army also turned traitor during the heresy, right? Ever wondered why the Imperial Guard aren't allowed to have their own drop ships and space craft?

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
This topic was summed up nicely the other day in a thread I was reading:

"Oh, you think WE'RE the traitors? How many Space Marines fell to chaos exactly? Fully half, was it?"

If fully half of the Imperial Guard fell to Chaos, the Imperium would be up gak creek without a paddle.

Yeah, and when half the marines fell to chaos it killed the Emperor and broke the IoM, what's your point?
The Horus Heresy was a specific event that happened due to a various set of factors, it is not the norm.

My point is that never in the history of the Imperium has fully half of the Guard fallen, while one specifically notable event has fully half the Space Marines fall.

Furthermore, the Imperium survived (albeit badly crippled) the Horus Heresy, while I doubt it would survive if fully half of the Imperial Guard simply stopped showing up to work, nevermind turned actively hostile.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
This topic was summed up nicely the other day in a thread I was reading:

"Oh, you think WE'RE the traitors? How many Space Marines fell to chaos exactly? Fully half, was it?"

If fully half of the Imperial Guard fell to Chaos, the Imperium would be up gak creek without a paddle.

Yeah, and when half the marines fell to chaos it killed the Emperor and broke the IoM, what's your point?
The Horus Heresy was a specific event that happened due to a various set of factors, it is not the norm.

My point is that never in the history of the Imperium has fully half of the Guard fallen, while one specifically notable event has fully half the Space Marines fall.

Furthermore, the Imperium survived (albeit badly crippled) the Horus Heresy, while I doubt it would survive if fully half of the Imperial Guard simply stopped showing up to work, nevermind turned actively hostile.

Except it did survive half of the mortal forces turning traitor? It wasn't just marines who turned traitor, half of the Imperial Army did as well.
It just wasn't Traitor Marines fighting the Imperium, it was Traitor Marines + Human supporters.

Does no one really know what the Imperial Army was? What does it even say in the Imperial Codex's fluff?

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

If you were to ask me what I think a Space Marine is, your basic Marine, it's that it's all the powerful aspect of every race mixed into one body. The knowledge and adaptability on the battlefield of the Tyranids, the durability of the Necrons, the speed of the Eldar, the close combat prowess of the Orks, the devastating shooting of the Tau - in my eyes, a Space Marine *should* be pretty much superior to most things - but little in number.

Shpeesh Maahreeenz!

'Transhuman dread' isn't a thing

Kind of is though.

For humans.

Even Tau probably shouldn't be that impressed, since they have their own battlesuits which are much bigger and much faster than Space Marines.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Except it did survive half of the mortal forces turning traitor? It wasn't just marines who turned traitor, half of the Imperial Army did as well.
It just wasn't Traitor Marines fighting the Imperium, it was Traitor Marines + Human supporters.

Does no one really know what the Imperial Army was? What does it even say in the Imperial Codex's fluff?

I know what the Imperial Army was; I play them in 30k. It wasn't fully half that fell; certainly not a 50/50 split. And many of those that did fall didn't fall to Chaos, but fell because of feudal-ish ties between actual Chaotic-influenced legions and hapless mortals unaware of the threat of the Warp.

It might not have been exactly half, but it was enough to ban them from having their own warships to stop exactly that sort of thing from happening again.

My point is that it was still a significant number of them that turned traitor during the heresy, so its not as if the IoM hadn't experienced a scenario where a good chunk of its mortal forces goes rogue.
I'd actually argue that it was a combination of Astartes + mortals that made the Heresy as bad as it was.
If it were just Astartes the IoM would just zerg rush them with loyal mortals and loyalist marines, and if were just mortals they'd get cut down by the Legions alone.

If half the guard were to go traitor now it would be bad, but the IoM still has the other half, SoB, Mechanicus and loyalist marines so might survive.

If another heresy were to happen though, where half the guard and half the astartes were to go rogue? Probably kill it for good this time, which is why the Army and Legions experienced such reforms.

If the Imperium survived half the fething Adeptus Mechanicus turning traitors they would survive half the imperial guard turning traitors.

I know, I know, the cool thing is to hate marines and have boners for imperial guardsmen but lets be real here.

The most recent even where most humans turned hostile wasnt the age of Aphostaty? An event most loyal marines didnt even participated into.

 Galas wrote:
If the Imperium survived half the fething Adeptus Mechanicus turning traitors they would survive half the imperial guard turning traitors.

I know, I know, the cool thing is to hate marines and have boners for imperial guardsmen but lets be real here.

The most recent even where most humans turned hostile wasnt the age of Aphostaty? An event most loyal marines didnt even participated into.

Yeah, the Age of Apostasy was mostly human. Its why the Church isn't allowed to have an true army.

That's a good point, and makes me wonder if the End Times are really end-timey. If half the Imperial Guard can just stop showing up for work and the imperium is largely okay, then are the other races really a threat?

Is the Imperium REALLY on the cusp of military defeat and collapse?

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
That's a good point, and makes me wonder if the End Times are really end-timey. If half the Imperial Guard can just stop showing up for work and the imperium is largely okay, then are the other races really a threat?

Is the Imperium REALLY on the cusp of military defeat and collapse?

it fizzles out like the western roman empire maybee?
like it loses so much authorithy that it fragments inot small petty fiefdoms?

You don't have to beat a nation in a war to make it fall.
The Soviet Union didn't collapse because the US attacked it. It collapsed because of socio-economic factors.

The Imperium's supply lines are already stretched thin, and every lost world only stretches them further. The reliance on the Golden Throne for navigation (which requires a huge number of sacrifices to keep running AND is implied to be failing) is another huge weakness, and the population has to be constantly repressed and indoctrinated in order to prevent revolts and keep those supply lines fed.

Its why Chaos, Genestealer cults and the Tau Empire are such considerable threats; they don't need to invade to break worlds, they just need the population to listen to their propaganda, and tear the planet apart from within through the Imperium's own people, which either will result in a proper invasion or the planet's government being over thrown and replaced with a regime that's opposed to the Imperium.

Really good opening post Mad Doc.

If you haven't read it yet, I recommend reading the opening section of the Imperial Armour 3 (Tau/Imperial Guard campaign). Features Raptor chapter marines being used against a defence installation and how they would carry out a lightning assault, it's really cool. Reads like something from a military history but within 40k. Not surprising as it was written by Wawrick Kinrade, who is a big-time military history buff.

One of the things I like about 30k is that the marines had enough numbers that they didn't just have to be this smaller, tactical assault/terror troop type role. You had them doing really mundane stuff as well - garrison duties, use as pilots and crewing artillery pieces etc. (imagine how many more shells a day a marine could load and fire?) Really makes some more interesting modelling opportunities.

One of the things I don't understand about SMs as terror troops is that they aren't doing stuff that is designed to be psychologically terrifying. Yes, they slaughtered your whole brigade before they knew what was happening, but the Chaos boys can do that as well, AND they pulled the Planetary Governor's head off slowly in front of the cameras, then forcibly shoved the head up his 4th point of contact. The terror that Chaos and Dark Eldar sow is by design and intent. The SM's are just doing their job and are really, REALLY, good at it. I would be far more terrified if my world was invaded by Drukari than by a force of Iron Fists.

Also, Commissars are 100% more scary then SM Chaplains. By design, and intent.

... you mean the Chaos SPACE MARINES?

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
But, I would like to add, I also want to lean further into "Space Marines aren't heroes, the Imperium is awful, and being a Space Marine is to live a stunted life as a weapon of war for the rest of your days, and beyond" aspect.

Basically, Space Marines are arcoflagellant-light .

I mean, kinda! You're not quite as constantly in pain, and you have some degree of autonomy, but only so far as being a weapon.

Now that we have established that Space Marines are arcoflagellant-light... do Space Marines experience flagellant-dread when exposed to the superior flagellant? I think they do. Like, they suddenly fall in awe and shock at how single-minded the arcos are, and how little they care for their own safety. It takes them several minutes to recover the first time they watch arco fight.

BrianDavion wrote:
do you have a soruce for marines falling being statisticly more likely or are you just pulling "facts" out of your ass?

Rule #1 please.
No source stating it outright, just plenty of stuff like the Horus Heresy, the taking of the Wolf of Fenris, ...
Compare that to, say, the DKoK, or the Cadian staying fiercely loyal despite being stationed just in front of the eye of terror.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Shouldn't you find the rate of corruption for traitor guard

I think the rate of corruption for traitor guard is 100% or something. They are traitor, it's right in the name! Same with the rate of corruption for Chaos Space Marines .

DKoK are a bit of an Iffy group to bring up in regards to loyality...

considering half the planet also turned

Aren't the DKOK also clones obsessed with martyrdom as penance for their world's treason? That might have something to do with it.

Not Online!!! wrote:
DKoK are a bit of an Iffy group to bring up in regards to loyality...

considering half the planet also turned

They aren't.
Because the DKoK literally didn't exist when half the planet turned.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
DKoK are a bit of an Iffy group to bring up in regards to loyality...

considering half the planet also turned

They aren't.
Because the DKoK literally didn't exist when half the planet turned.

Same stock, any other planet would've been purged or on severe watchfull eye, yet they are also not above tech heresy...
so yes, iffy.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
DKoK are a bit of an Iffy group to bring up in regards to loyality...

considering half the planet also turned

They aren't.
Because the DKoK literally didn't exist when half the planet turned.

technicly neither did the ADEPTUS Astartes

During the heresy, they were not called adeptus astartes?
They were still called Ultramarines, Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space wolves etc .

 catbarf wrote:
And that's my fanfic for why Eldar are perfect terror troops and Space Marines should be scared witless of them, OC do not steel.

...

A coked-up Ogryn running down the street must register as a planetary emergency.

Your comparison doesn't track.

The Imperium spends most of their time fighting against recidivists/rebellions/etc. and after them, probably Orks, then Tyranids. Against such a force Marines are terrifying.

I remember it's in the first (IIRC) Eisenhorn novel. As soon as Gregor lays eyes upon a Chaos Marine the immediate thought is "We're dead.". There's no question in his mind that the single Marine he has seen spells doom for him and all his companions.

Marines are terrifying, especially when you're a squishy human.

There’s also a passage in Nightbringer (the now possibly non-Canon Uriel Ventriss novel) where Ventriss passes by a riot, in a carriage, and the rioters just completely knock it off.

Doesn’t address them. Barely even looks at them. Riot quelled.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As for Renegade Imperial Guard?

Spare a thought for the Grunts. Their job is to literally follow orders, and to do so mindlessly. It’s the Command you need to really worry about.

Which is again, why Astartes and to some degree the Inquisition are so suited to eradicating it. They both specialise in taking down the head honcho leading the rebellion.

That no renegade Guardsman, however unwitting, is likely to survive is the brutality of the Imperium.

But consider. A Demi-squad of Tactical Marines, in the right place at the right time? Goodbye Traitor Command. You’ve just been eradicated, root and stem. The rest of it? Time for a penance crusade. Everyone into the ships. Into orbit, oops, mind that vacuum lads!

I genuinely wonder how many Imperial Higher Ups that’ve seen Astartes in action actually then rebel? This is probably a question with no answer!