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Florida

Sterling191 wrote:

It's *highly* target profile dependent, and the math gets horrifically complex when you factor in specialisms and the +1A from chainswords. If it's a non-favored enemy, the Axes win out on everything that isnt a T4, 7, 8 or 9 target with a 3+ or better, while Chainswords win out against T3 5+ or worse and T7 4+ or worse. If it's a favored enemy, axes win out against T5, 6 and 10, while the chainsword is the go to for T3, 4 and 7 with a 4+ or worse. T8 and T9 4+ or worse is a wash, while the sword wins out on pretty much everything else.

All of the boils down to (and I want to caveat that this is a massive generalization) if you have a lot of T5/T6 the axe is the way to go, if you are seeing a lot of power armor or tanks the sword is a viable option. I personally do think the 5ppm cost on the power weapons on the bikes gives Chainswords a niche to fill (as you're likely not dropping a Specialism on a combat squadded bike team outside of Furor horde blending), as the strength of the Vet bike is the fact that it's crazy inexpensive for what it brings to the table.


Assuming a few pieces: Assault Doc is active, we leave heavy tank killing to tank killers, and Chainswords are better against small fries. A few points can be made against popular picks in the marine meta currently.
Sword vs Axe
1. Bladeguard - Straight tie, ends up wounding on 3s with a 4++
2. Intercessor Eq - Sword wins, unless they are buffed with a 5++
3. Heavy Intercessor Eq - Virtually a tie trading +1 to wound vs additional -ap, victory to the Axe if the unit has a 5++
4. Land Speeder/Other T6 - Same as the previous

Of course as you already mentioned: Massive Generalization. Just food for thought really.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/11/02 22:27:28


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 ChobitsCrazy wrote:
Sterling191 wrote:

It's *highly* target profile dependent, and the math gets horrifically complex when you factor in specialisms and the +1A from chainswords. If it's a non-favored enemy, the Axes win out on everything that isnt a T4, 7, 8 or 9 target with a 3+ or better, while Chainswords win out against T3 5+ or worse and T7 4+ or worse. If it's a favored enemy, axes win out against T5, 6 and 10, while the chainsword is the go to for T3, 4 and 7 with a 4+ or worse. T8 and T9 4+ or worse is a wash, while the sword wins out on pretty much everything else.

All of the boils down to (and I want to caveat that this is a massive generalization) if you have a lot of T5/T6 the axe is the way to go, if you are seeing a lot of power armor or tanks the sword is a viable option. I personally do think the 5ppm cost on the power weapons on the bikes gives Chainswords a niche to fill (as you're likely not dropping a Specialism on a combat squadded bike team outside of Furor horde blending), as the strength of the Vet bike is the fact that it's crazy inexpensive for what it brings to the table.


Assuming a few pieces: Assault Doc is active, we leave heavy tank killing to tank killers, and Chainswords are better against small fries. A few points can be made against popular picks in the marine meta currently.
Sword vs Axe
1. Bladeguard - Straight tie, ends up wounding on 3s with a 4++
2. Intercessor Eq - Sword wins, unless they are buffed with a 5++
3. Heavy Intercessor Eq - Virtually a tie trading +1 to wound vs additional -ap, victory to the Axe if the unit has a 5++
4. Land Speeder/Other T6 - Same as the previous

Of course as you already mentioned: Massive Generalization. Just food for thought really.



While you're saying these are generalisations, from a glance this seems to be:

A tie (no benefit)
Sword win (Axe if 5++)
Tie (Axe if 5++)
Tie (Axe if 5++)

So considering most of these are ties, and 5++ isn't too uncommon a buff, shouldn't axes be the de facto default weapon choice?

Though chainswords being 5pts cheaper is a factor. And where do lightning claws come in?

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Niiru wrote:

Though chainswords being 5pts cheaper is a factor. And where do lightning claws come in?


They don't. Only the Sergeant in a Bike team can take one, regular Vet Bikers can only take Swords, Axes or Mauls.

Niiru wrote:

So considering most of these are ties, and 5++ isn't too uncommon a buff, shouldn't axes be the de facto default weapon choice?


Unfortunately, it's not that simple. Wound rerolls make things weird, so the conversation shifts considerably if you're looking at Bikes in Kill Teams.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/11/02 23:33:44


 
   
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He's not what he used to be, but it looks like you could make an interesting Terminator Captain. The Relic that gives SIA to a bolt weapon appears to work with a weapon that gets the master crafted upgrade from the WL trait. This would let you give a Terminator Captain a d2 storm bolter with SIA and bolter discipline.

This of course, assumes that using the Artificer Bolt Cache doesn't actually turn the storm bolter into a relic.

I'm also trying to decide if the Optimized Priority Warlord trait is worth something. Can a unit perform an action the same turn it deep strikes? If so maybe you can drop that character with a very beefy but shooty kill team and perform an otherwise difficult action.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/11/03 00:16:43


 
   
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 Chris521 wrote:

This of course, assumes that using the Artificer Bolt Cache doesn't actually turn the storm bolter into a relic.


RAW it does not. It simply adds the SIA weapon ability to any bolt weapons the wielder carries, similarly to how the "X Bolts" special issue wargear item from every chapter does not make a weapon a relic, and can thus be used with certain Relic bolter weapons.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Chris521 wrote:

I'm also trying to decide if the Optimized Priority Warlord trait is worth something. Can a unit perform an action the same turn it deep strikes? If so maybe you can drop that character with a very beefy but shooty kill team and perform an otherwise difficult action.


It depends on the wording of the action, but most of the current ones that I'm aware of start at the end of the movement phase, which happens after the Reinforcements step of that phase, so it would be a legal play.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/11/03 00:19:51


 
   
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Florida

Niiru wrote:
A tie (no benefit)
Sword win (Axe if 5++)
Tie (Axe if 5++)
Tie (Axe if 5++)


In this case point 2 with a 5++ is a tie

Sterling191 wrote:
Unfortunately, it's not that simple. Wound rerolls make things weird, so the conversation shifts considerably if you're looking at Bikes in Kill Teams.


Yeah full re-rolls would swing this more in the favor of swords but at the cost of more points as well. Without the specializations this would be the true comparison.

Ultimately it's really close and probably nit-picky really.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/11/03 01:46:47


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Indiana

Feel like when it is that situational and swingy you just go for what you like and damn the .25% difference in efficiency.

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 Leth wrote:
Feel like when it is that situational and swingy you just go for what you like and damn the .25% difference in efficiency.



This is one of the things I've liked about the recent changes - All the weapon options actually seem to be valid now.

I'm likely to end up modelling my own stuff anyway, but it's nice to know I can pick whichever option fits the weapon, as they're all ok choices.


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I keep seeing the math with Sgts included, but don't we want to forgo the Sgt to make the unit ObSec Troops that get Cover?
   
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 LunarSol wrote:
I keep seeing the math with Sgts included, but don't we want to forgo the Sgt to make the unit ObSec Troops that get Cover?


For Veteran Bikes there are reasons to do both Combat Squad shenanigans, as well as running standalone units.

 Leth wrote:
Feel like when it is that situational and swingy you just go for what you like and damn the .25% difference in efficiency.


Indeed. I think the fundamental choice here is between keeping the chainsword or upping to the power weapon, and there are absolutely reasons to go in either direction depending on your army makeup and squad configuration.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/11/03 14:46:52


 
   
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Sterling191 wrote:
 LunarSol wrote:
I keep seeing the math with Sgts included, but don't we want to forgo the Sgt to make the unit ObSec Troops that get Cover?


For Veteran Bikes there are reasons to do both Combat Squad shenanigans, as well as running standalone units.


New to the Watch, and playing 40k in general, but I've been immersing myself in this hobby from the modeling side for years because I literally cannot get enough.

I'm gathering the reasons you might choose the base unit over a KT combat squad might be the expanded wargear options for the Sergeant and the option for the Attack Bike? I like the idea of the multi-melta there because it seems there's a lot of value in hiding some efficient AT punch within a unit with that much speed. Am I off base there?

I saw that the Sergeant can wield a Storm Bolter, so would that basically mean 8 SIA shots if you equip the Bolt Cache on him with the Sgt Relic Stratagem? I think that's pretty cool, but I'm not exactly a good judge of efficiency yet.
   
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Vilgeir wrote:

I'm gathering the reasons you might choose the base unit over a KT combat squad might be the expanded wargear options for the Sergeant and the option for the Attack Bike? I like the idea of the multi-melta there because it seems there's a lot of value in hiding some efficient AT punch within a unit with that much speed. Am I off base there?


That's part of it, correct. The other part is points. If you for a combat squad you *MUST* take five models. If you go for the standalone option, you start 55-60 points cheaper. A cheap as chips MSU bike squad with chainswords and a stormbolter on the Sarge is 95 points. That's 5 points less than an Intercessor squad. For 5 points less you lose a single wound, lose ObSec and the ability to interact with terrain, but gain a point of toughness, you're actually *better* in melee against anything with a 3+ save or better (it's a wash against 4+), and you have vastly superior firepower at slightly shorter range, with more than twice the movement.

Vilgeir wrote:

I saw that the Sergeant can wield a Storm Bolter, so would that basically mean 8 SIA shots if you equip the Bolt Cache on him with the Sgt Relic Stratagem? I think that's pretty cool, but I'm not exactly a good judge of efficiency yet.


This is correct. It's not going to leafblow your opponent off the table, but it allows the pod to punch above its weight just that much more.
   
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The bike ide seems like it’s best for the ammo cache but I think the inceptor may be of interest. 6 sia shots followed by 12 normal shots all at assault. Total of 18 shots where the bikes get 8, 4, 4, 16 shots 8 sia better melee (chainswords), longer range 24 vs 18, less points 120 vs 95....well never mind bikes win out completely unless you are deep striking the inceptors
   
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My personal bias on Inceptors is the plasma variant. 50ppm for 2x 1d3 Blast plasma is very, very good. Anti-tank in a pinch, good against heavy infantry but also terrifying to any unit with 6+ models.
   
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Not really tactics related, but as this is my work-in-progress of making a tacticool DW vehicle (ATV) I thought I'd share. Feedback always welcome.

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/417086023009566721/773418475783061564/dw1.png

(discord link cos that's where I last uploaded it, should work, and I didn't want to clutter up the thread with big image files).


On topic - Sterling mentions plasma inceptors, which is a unit/model I've been considering adding as it conveys the ability to fall back and shoot. Are they worthwhile enough as a single model in a unit? (or a 3/2 maybe). Does their crushing charge work in a kill team?

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Sterling191 wrote:
My personal bias on Inceptors is the plasma variant. 50ppm for 2x 1d3 Blast plasma is very, very good. Anti-tank in a pinch, good against heavy infantry but also terrifying to any unit with 6+ models.


In 9th ed. plasma inceptors are really good. Sadly we can no longer mix and match plasma and bolter in inceptor units, otherwise it was still possible to go for a plasma unit and a serg with SIA bolters
   
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Niiru wrote:

On topic - Sterling mentions plasma inceptors, which is a unit/model I've been considering adding as it conveys the ability to fall back and shoot. Are they worthwhile enough as a single model in a unit? (or a 3/2 maybe). Does their crushing charge work in a kill team?


Inceptors lost crushing charge in the Codex (it became a generic strat that all Jump Pack units can deploy). Honestly, I dont see them being a good fit for Indomitor teams as they directly compete with Eradicators and give up their mobility to hide behind Heavy Intercessors. There maaaay be room for one if you dont plan on combat squadding the team to unlock fall back and shoot.

They're similar in function to Biker units, albeit with different nuance and preferred targets. Theyre tough, mobile gunships that can rove around the table and skirmish for objectives, disrupt enemy plans and generally be a nuisance that has to be dealt with.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/11/04 16:38:04


 
   
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My big fear with them is just that overcharging on 2D3 is very dicey. I've thrown one in a unit and had it burn out before getting engaged more than I'd like to admit.
   
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 LunarSol wrote:
My big fear with them is just that overcharging on 2D3 is very dicey. I've thrown one in a unit and had it burn out before getting engaged more than I'd like to admit.


They 100% need reroll support (one of the reasons I rate the jump captain so damn highly), and chances are very good they're going to die (either self-inflicted or otherwise). But what they can do is well worth the risk in my opinion.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/11/04 16:50:41


 
   
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Concerning inceptors, I will try the bolter variant in the next match.

I suspect they can be more useful given the new rules for a couple of reasons.

(i) it is easier to make them very tanky. 5++, 5+++ and t5 and w3 require dedicated firepower

(ii) the chief apothecary is amazing on them

(iii) it's easier to give them ob sec via WT or the ancient

(iv) the serg. can take SIA bolters

Probably they are not super competitive, but I am interested in trying out whether they can do some work given the new codex and strats
   
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Sterling191 wrote:
 LunarSol wrote:
My big fear with them is just that overcharging on 2D3 is very dicey. I've thrown one in a unit and had it burn out before getting engaged more than I'd like to admit.


They 100% need reroll support (one of the reasons I rate the jump captain so damn highly), and chances are very good they're going to die (either self-inflicted or otherwise). But what they can do is well worth the risk in my opinion.


Yeah, they die. The concern is mostly over putting one in a unit for the fall back strat.
   
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 LunarSol wrote:

Yeah, they die. The concern is mostly over putting one in a unit for the fall back strat.


If you're looking to keep an Indomitor team that you dont plan to squad down on the bounce, it's a decent investment. But I likely wouldnt bring plasma for that job.
   
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Indiana

I just can’t get into the heavy intercessors. Points disappear so quickly and they are just so slow. Maybe if tables are light on terrain I will change my mind.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/11/04 17:49:30


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Sterling191 wrote:
 LunarSol wrote:

Yeah, they die. The concern is mostly over putting one in a unit for the fall back strat.


If you're looking to keep an Indomitor team that you dont plan to squad down on the bounce, it's a decent investment. But I likely wouldnt bring plasma for that job.


Yeah, I think I'd only do it if I was planning on running Aggressors in it. What split are you thinking for the Combat Squad version?
   
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 Leth wrote:
I just can’t get into the heavy intercessors. Points disappear so quickly and they are just so slow. Maybe if tables are light on terrain I will change my mind.


I'm not sure on them myself yet. I have a couple proteus teams in mind, and then after that... not sure.

A spectrus team for DS denial seems like it's needed too.

And i'm likely to want a couple dreads of some description.

And then there's all the buff units like HQs and apothecary (and a judiciar may even be worthwhile?)

Points will be tight.

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 LunarSol wrote:

Yeah, I think I'd only do it if I was planning on running Aggressors in it. What split are you thinking for the Combat Squad version?


6/4 HInt/Eradicator. If up against things like Knights or Greater Demons (or whatever the big hard target army ends up becoming in 9th) keep them in a single pod for strat efficiency, but otherwise 2 double tapping Eradicators with Heavy Melta in each formation is generally enough to deal with medium armor while still being pants on fire terrifying for heavy infantry, yet still having three HIs to chew through to get to the Eradicators. It also does appear that Specialisms will impart to Combat Squadded elements, but I expect we're going to need an FAQ to confirm/deny that.

Interestingly enough, because of the order of operations, you can use Teleportarium for 1 CP, then combat squad down to have discrete elements without expending additional resources.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/11/04 18:03:15


 
   
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Sterling191 wrote:

Interestingly enough, because of the order of operations, you can use Teleportarium for 1 CP, then combat squad down to have discrete elements without expending additional resources.


Neat. Definitely a significant benefit.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/11/04 19:27:54


 
   
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 LunarSol wrote:

Neat. Definitely a significant benefit.


I wouldnt bank on it sticking around for certain. Combat Squadding in general interfaces super weirdly with deployment and transports (you cant put half a squad in a transport and deploy the other half on the board for instance), so the odds of an FAQ to clean it all up is more likely than not in my book.
   
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 LunarSol wrote:
Sterling191 wrote:

Interestingly enough, because of the order of operations, you can use Teleportarium for 1 CP, then combat squad down to have discrete elements without expending additional resources.


Neat. Definitely a significant benefit.



Really? I thought the combat squadding of units had to happen at the start of the deployment step?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/11/04 19:19:30


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Niiru wrote:

Really? I thought the combat squadding of units had to happen at the start of the deployment step?


Declaring reserves and transports happens before that step in the order of operations.
   
 
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