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Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Grimtuff wrote:


Yeah, you conglomerate of Xenos players, because Xenos is a single faction, right? So that Necron stuff is super duper useful to those Ork and Tau players over there, right?

But isn't it what the xeno players claim about marines? that marines are just one faction and one same army, why would they expect to be treated different?


You know, I wonder if they released lore that GSC infiltrated a Astartes Chapter and now gets a full Primaris lineup access, if all the marine players would start screaming in agony.

GW did such lore in the Scyths of the Emperor book, and marine players were in deed not very happy about , from what I understand, as retconing of decades of lore just to make Scyths a Primaris only chapter.

From a strickt rule points perspective I don't think many players would be happy, if Riptide suddenly become core units for marines or GK could ride around on harli jetbikes and transports.

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
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In My Lab

Karol wrote:
 Grimtuff wrote:


Yeah, you conglomerate of Xenos players, because Xenos is a single faction, right? So that Necron stuff is super duper useful to those Ork and Tau players over there, right?

But isn't it what the xeno players claim about marines? that marines are just one faction and one same army, why would they expect to be treated different?


You know, I wonder if they released lore that GSC infiltrated a Astartes Chapter and now gets a full Primaris lineup access, if all the marine players would start screaming in agony.

GW did such lore in the Scyths of the Emperor book, and marine players were in deed not very happy about , from what I understand, as retconing of decades of lore just to make Scyths a Primaris only chapter.

From a strickt rule points perspective I don't think many players would be happy, if Riptide suddenly become core units for marines or GK could ride around on harli jetbikes and transports.
Tell me, what's the difference between a Blood Angels Troops unit and a Space Wolves Troops unit?

Now, what about an Eldar Troop and an Ork Troop?

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in us
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We were already told we were getting bloat not too different from PA via some supplement for Death Guard and Darl Eldar already.

We are already going to have a mess.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
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 JNAProductions wrote:
Karol wrote:
 Grimtuff wrote:


Yeah, you conglomerate of Xenos players, because Xenos is a single faction, right? So that Necron stuff is super duper useful to those Ork and Tau players over there, right?

But isn't it what the xeno players claim about marines? that marines are just one faction and one same army, why would they expect to be treated different?


You know, I wonder if they released lore that GSC infiltrated a Astartes Chapter and now gets a full Primaris lineup access, if all the marine players would start screaming in agony.

GW did such lore in the Scyths of the Emperor book, and marine players were in deed not very happy about , from what I understand, as retconing of decades of lore just to make Scyths a Primaris only chapter.

From a strickt rule points perspective I don't think many players would be happy, if Riptide suddenly become core units for marines or GK could ride around on harli jetbikes and transports.
Tell me, what's the difference between a Blood Angels Troops unit and a Space Wolves Troops unit?

Now, what about an Eldar Troop and an Ork Troop?

GW's been pumping marines for so long now that newer players see marine subfactions and full-fledged xenos factions as equivalent. I am shocked, shocked I say.
   
Made in ch
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the_scotsman wrote:
Spoletta wrote:
Compared to past editions things have become much better for xenos.

At least we are now sure to receive a codex and some kind of supplement each edition. We have no doubt that at some point it will happen.

In past editions (which were even longer) it was possible for xenos to have codici that were last updated 2 editions prior to the current one.


The actual reality is that the large majority of content received in a faction's codex in 8th edition was simply withheld from their initial index rules. in 8th edition GW cranked up the marketing strategy of 'Manufactured Discontent' that you'll often see employed in freemium-style video games like Fortnite. Playing a game with a faction that only had its index against a faction that had its codex was intended to be a frustrating experience. Reserving all Stratagems, Relics, and Subfaction traits and ensuring that the baseline warlord traits were universally worse than the codex traits ensured that even the lowest-effort codexes felt like they had something to get you excited for, unlike in previous editions like 6th and 7th where a common lament was 'nothing changed except we lost a bunch of options to No Model No Rules, wtf GW?'

A codex is intended to feel like a massive relief/improvement over the previous state, no matter what. In order to do that without simply allowing massive power creep, GW has to make sure that any given faction ends up near the bottom of the barrel competitively just before they get their codex. Harlequins, Daemons and Sisters of Battle going through the edition change with streamlined but highly functional rules for 9th edition and factions like Drukhari, Craftworlds, Tau and GSC getting completely reamed by the beginning of the edition points changes was not an accident. I would bet extremely safe money that if you organized the factions without codexes from current worst to current best, you'd come extremely close to predicting the 9th edition codex release schedule.


Sadly i can only exalt once, but yeah.
Except GW's also incompetent enough in regards to their ruledesign that some factions didn't get the spike needed to feel relieved

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 Daedalus81 wrote:

In the 41st millennium there is only overpriced hamberders.

 
   
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 JNAProductions wrote:
Tell me, what's the difference between a Blood Angels Troops unit and a Space Wolves Troops unit?

Now, what about an Eldar Troop and an Ork Troop?


Same as its always been: rules.
   
Made in gb
Fresh-Faced New User




Karol wrote:
 Grimtuff wrote:


Yeah, you conglomerate of Xenos players, because Xenos is a single faction, right? So that Necron stuff is super duper useful to those Ork and Tau players over there, right?

But isn't it what the xeno players claim about marines? that marines are just one faction and one same army, why would they expect to be treated different?



Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Wolves, Deathwatch, etc are subfactions. Marines are just one same army that happens to have been given so much attention it feels like several.

Xenos isn't a faction or one same army. It's defined by what it isn't (not human/chaos) rather than what it is. Xenos is divided between multiple separate factions which aren't allied.

Please don't act like Tau, Eldar, Tyranids etc are all subfaction supplements to one big 'Xenos' codex. Each one is an army in its own right, in the same way that marines are one army in their own right.

The loyalist human equivalent to the 'Xenos' tag is 'Imperial', of which marines are one part.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/01/05 12:28:19


 
   
Made in gb
Excited About the Great Crusade





I would disagree we are "into 9th". I haven't played 40k since August and I feel most people will be in the same boat. Right now GW is having to deal with Covid and Brexit, both of which are being handled poorly by the UK gov. Expecting them to release anything but their cash cow product during this period is a bit silly. Even with the reduced release schedule we're still getting 2 codexes/month so by November-ish (i.e. a year after first codexes release) we should have all the codexes/codex supplements plus the campaign books we know they have planned. Previously it was a codex a month for 8th and less than that for most of 6th-7th.
   
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There are already several majors planned using 9th rules, several tournaments have already taken place, and the top players are already WAAC list building, based off the few codecies already released. So yes, we are in 9th, covid hasn't stopped idiots from being idiots, and there are quite a few idiots in the ITC 40k scene, apparently...
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut




Popey45696321 795105 11021682 wrote:

Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Wolves, Deathwatch, etc are subfactions. Marines are just one same army that happens to have been given so much attention it feels like several.

Xenos isn't a faction or one same army. It's defined by what it isn't (not human/chaos) rather than what it is. Xenos is divided between multiple separate factions which aren't allied.

Please don't act like Tau, Eldar, Tyranids etc are all subfaction supplements to one big 'Xenos' codex. Each one is an army in its own right, in the same way that marines are one army in their own right.

The loyalist human equivalent to the 'Xenos' tag is 'Imperial', of which marines are one part.

But they aren't subfaction. They had codex as far in the past as over twice my age. That is not a subfaction. Inari, or harlis that were units in codex CWE, that is a subfaction. There are too many faction specific units and rules for them to just be a subfaction. I mean where are the DA wolf cav or SW gunboat landspeeders, DW is a sub faction of DAs, same as raven wing, and even they are different from what ever an ultramarine or WS player would run. Same with DW, no one has their vets, troop outriders and eradictors. And no I don't xeno players tell IG players that they got a lot of stuff, because GW is reseting the marine model line and making a ton of replacments for every classic space marine model. You guys specificaly tell marine players that they play the same army, and that they get a ton of support. What kind of a support did a Death Wing player get in 8th ed? In 9th at least he got a nice set of updated rules, but model wise they got a resculpt of a chaplain terminator and a limited edition librarian. Sorry, but comparing to that xeno armies in 8th or even 9th got more models.

Ah and don't say that xeno players didn't ally, when running both the farsight and regular tau detachments or Inari in 8th was a real thing. Even tyranids were souping in GSC and vice versa. Only orks always played the same goff list.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/01/05 15:57:14


If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
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@Karol - It's not the same at all. If a box of, say, Intercessors is released, literally every Marine faction can use them. The new Primaris Speeders? Literally every Marine Faction can use them. The new Primaris Tech Marine? Literally Every Marine faction can use them. You get the point. Some may have different rules depending on what army they are in, but at this point, GW has fixed it so that pretty much all of the new Marine releases benefit in some way almost all marine factions.

Compare that to Xenos where Necron Warriors can be used by .... Necrons. Tyranid Warriors can be used by ... Tyranids, etc. You try to point out souping but ironically, GW's attempts to prevent Imperial and Chaos souping have really hit the Xenos factions much harder. Fact is, a single marine release applies to pretty much all marines unless it's a snowflake release (Sang Guard, etc), while a Xenos release applies only to that faction. That's why it's so silly when you see a release schedule that looks like 5 marines to one Xenos and you have Xenos armies that have only lost models since 5th ed and Marine players say "You got a release, stop complaining!" lol

Edit: I just googled ablutions and apparently it does not including dropping a duece. I should have looked it up early sorry for any confusion. - Baldsmug

Psiensis on the "good old days":
"Kids these days...
... I invented the 6th Ed meta back in 3rd ed.
Wait, what were we talking about again? Did I ever tell you about the time I gave you five bees for a quarter? That's what you'd say in those days, "give me five bees for a quarter", is what you'd say in those days. And you'd go down to the D&D shop, with an onion in your belt, 'cause that was the style of the time. So there I was in the D&D shop..." 
   
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The people making that point are not debating honestly, it just isn't possible. The numbers are far too clear.

   
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 Da Boss wrote:
The people making that point are not debating honestly, it just isn't possible. The numbers are far too clear.


Before I agree with you, I need to make sure you are referencing the point I think you are.
   
Made in gb
Excited About the Great Crusade





I think everyone just seems to be overreacting a bit. I understand being annoyed at not getting a new codex, I played with the same Ork codex from 5th to 7th so I do understand that, but I do not get how you can declare that xenos are unsupported 3 months into the codex release cycle. I don't know why anyone expected GW to release codexes for armies that aren't included with a new edition starter box first.
   
Made in us
Mysterious Techpriest




I think everyone just seems to be overreacting a bit. I understand being annoyed at not getting a new codex, I played with the same Ork codex from 5th to 7th so I do understand that, but I do not get how you can declare that xenos are unsupported 3 months into the codex release cycle. I don't know why anyone expected GW to release codexes for armies that aren't included with a new edition starter box first.


I think you're missing the primary point. Nobody expected what you're describing. The problem is, history didn't start with 9th. People are responding the fact that the marines are still in what has, to this point, been an unprecedented release cycle that has lasted what - 18 months I think at this point, and taken up too much design space. I've always said it doesn't bother me that marines get the most support. They are the cash cow so no big deal. They are probably single handedly funding the production cost of some of the armies I play.

That said, when you get to the point where we are now, it's just a bit ridiculous.

GW: "Here's the 309th Primaris LT packaged with the 17th type of Primaris Captain. We know you wanted it, and what's the point of marines if not to have 17-20 versions of every single unit! Oh ... and here's a resculpt of a DE model that didn't need it."

DE Players: "Ok but ... can we get Vect back? Or Keradruahk?"

GW: "New this week! Primaris Supreme Missile Bunker of His Eternal Light!"

Craftworld Players:"Um - some of these sculpts are older than my kids. Can we get an update?"

Too Many Marine Players "Stop crying and enjoy your Necron release!"


Edit: I just googled ablutions and apparently it does not including dropping a duece. I should have looked it up early sorry for any confusion. - Baldsmug

Psiensis on the "good old days":
"Kids these days...
... I invented the 6th Ed meta back in 3rd ed.
Wait, what were we talking about again? Did I ever tell you about the time I gave you five bees for a quarter? That's what you'd say in those days, "give me five bees for a quarter", is what you'd say in those days. And you'd go down to the D&D shop, with an onion in your belt, 'cause that was the style of the time. So there I was in the D&D shop..." 
   
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Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba





 Gert wrote:
I think everyone just seems to be overreacting a bit. I understand being annoyed at not getting a new codex, I played with the same Ork codex from 5th to 7th so I do understand that, but I do not get how you can declare that xenos are unsupported 3 months into the codex release cycle. I don't know why anyone expected GW to release codexes for armies that aren't included with a new edition starter box first.


This isn't a "ninth edition" issue, this is a "many of the current crop of players who are the most into 40k got into it with the idea that it is a multi-factional game where you pick your faction and the expected standard within the wider industry of video games and TT games is that in a multi-faction game you expect to see roughly equivalent support for the various different factions involved, not one faction getting roughly half of the release slots while the other 18 factions share the remaining half between them"

Someone who got into the game with the Dawn of War series, where the factions would be maybe Space Marines, Chaos, Necrons, Eldar, Orks, Tau, Tyranids, etc who then gets into 40k where the factions are Ultramarines, Raven Guard, Dark Angels, Blood Angels, Grey Knights, Space Wolves, etc etc is going to have the natural reaction of "what the feth?"

A couple of fun facts:

-The last release for Tyranids was in 2014, now 7 years ago.

-Since the release of 5th edition 13 years ago, Craftworld Eldar have received 15 kits, including characters, not including finecast re-issuings and re-boxings. Since the release of 9th edition a few months ago, Space Marines have received 15 kits.

-Dark Eldar have not received a single new unit since the relaunch of their model line in 5th edition, which was I believe in 20...10? Definitely over a decade ago, not a single new unit.

-Harlequins have not received a single new model since the relaunch of their model line in 2015, now 6 years ago.

-The most recent Xenos faction to be added to the game was Ynnari, who were added in late 7th edition with a box containing 3 models. Two editions later, Ynnari remain a faction with 3 models.

This does not ignore or take away from the good model support some factions do receive. The Necron model wave was extremely extremely needed, because the last time the necrons had received any models at all was, again, in their fifth edition range relaunch nearly exactly 10 years ago. Since that relaunch, they had only received I think 2 new sculpts, both for existing characters? Adding a second wave of support to GSC has massively increased their different available playstyles, with a variety of cool characters and new units that provide some badly needed expansion from what was previously kind of a one-note 'deep strike and charge' army. The recent Tau wave also did a ton to help make it way easier to get into Tau, since their core units were updated from ancient 3rd ed era stuff to something a new player can actually get excited about painting up.


"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
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 Gert wrote:
I think everyone just seems to be overreacting a bit. I understand being annoyed at not getting a new codex, I played with the same Ork codex from 5th to 7th so I do understand that, but I do not get how you can declare that xenos are unsupported 3 months into the codex release cycle. I don't know why anyone expected GW to release codexes for armies that aren't included with a new edition starter box first.
As a Marine player, I'm annoyed that we GOT a new codex, considering I only just bought the last one when it was released only a year prior.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
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FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
 Da Boss wrote:
The people making that point are not debating honestly, it just isn't possible. The numbers are far too clear.


Before I agree with you, I need to make sure you are referencing the point I think you are.


The point I am referencing is people saying Xenos are fine because look, necrons just got updated.

It is obviously a problem, it makes lots of people unhappy, and it would be good if GW did something about it - but I don't expect them to.

My advice to Xenos players is to give up on the dream of being treated any better than you currently are and lower your expectations. GW sees Xenos factions as fourth rate factions, fit only to be beaten up by the real stars of the show. It is a weird way to run a multi faction game but it seems to work for them.

   
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I'm so confused by GW's choices as to which chapter is getting a focus as to scare me. There are currently people who would drown GW in money if they released primaris GK or Primaris LoD. But instead it's IF/Sal/BA/DA. I honestly can't understand who is deciding where to focus the love beam. It's like a Miss America pagent but instead of any of the finalist, the judges pick "It's PAT" from SNL.
   
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Marines weren't a competitive faction until the second half of 8th edition. We used to joke GW was going to replace Marines as the poster boys in 6th and 7th.

The current obsession GW has with (Pri)Marines will pass, and eventually we will have a new OP faction to complain about.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/01/05 19:52:09


 
   
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FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I'm so confused by GW's choices as to which chapter is getting a focus as to scare me. There are currently people who would drown GW in money if they released primaris GK or Primaris LoD. But instead it's IF/Sal/BA/DA. I honestly can't understand who is deciding where to focus the love beam. It's like a Miss America pagent but instead of any of the finalist, the judges pick "It's PAT" from SNL.


They're focusing on the Chapters they can do with a book, a pauldron sprue, and one character. GK would need whole new kits.

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Marines weren't a competitive faction until the second half of 8th edition.


Not entirely accurate. Even when the book as a whole was weaker, it was in the unique position of still having two or three really oppressive, tourney winning builds.

As far as the whole thing passing? I hope so, but at the rate we're going I see no end in sight.

Edit: I just googled ablutions and apparently it does not including dropping a duece. I should have looked it up early sorry for any confusion. - Baldsmug

Psiensis on the "good old days":
"Kids these days...
... I invented the 6th Ed meta back in 3rd ed.
Wait, what were we talking about again? Did I ever tell you about the time I gave you five bees for a quarter? That's what you'd say in those days, "give me five bees for a quarter", is what you'd say in those days. And you'd go down to the D&D shop, with an onion in your belt, 'cause that was the style of the time. So there I was in the D&D shop..." 
   
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Think the road map got murdered by covid tbh.

Still trying to be more polite. If you catch me being toxic please call me on it.

Enjoying narrative before matched play, crusading on a path to glory! 
   
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Agreed, in terms of spanner in the works, global pandemic that never seems to end is a pretty big one
   
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 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Think the road map got murdered by covid tbh.


One of many facts that has sailed completely over the heads of most around here.
   
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Boom! Leman Russ Commander




 Tyran wrote:
Marines weren't a competitive faction until the second half of 8th edition. We used to joke GW was going to replace Marines as the poster boys in 6th and 7th.

The current obsession GW has with (Pri)Marines will pass, and eventually we will have a new OP faction to complain about.


Um....First turn Smash Captains would like to have a word with you for the entire first half of 8th. BA were an unstoppable lists until the Castellan came out and knocked them off the top list, and then they created the ugliness that was the triple Repulsor lists perched on the top of ruins, then came the Iron Hands debacle with unkillable FW dreadnaught characters.

Point is, Marines have never suffered or been bottom tier, not like any other faction. There are weaker and stronger lists, to be sure, but the majority of game winning lists in the meta for most of 8th was Marine Lists.

https://bloodofkittens.com/8th-edition-top-army-list-compendium/
   
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FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

Um....First turn Smash Captains would like to have a word with you for the entire first half of 8th. BA were an unstoppable lists until the Castellan came out and knocked them off the top list, and then they created the ugliness that was the triple Repulsor lists perched on the top of ruins, then came the Iron Hands debacle with unkillable FW dreadnaught characters.

Point is, Marines have never suffered or been bottom tier, not like any other faction. There are weaker and stronger lists, to be sure, but the majority of game winning lists in the meta for most of 8th was Marine Lists.

https://bloodofkittens.com/8th-edition-top-army-list-compendium/

Everyone had at least a few competitive lists, but you can see in your own source that Marine competitive lists were relatively rare in 2017 and 2018, and only truly exploded in 2019 (I wonder what Marine-related book was released in 2019?). BTW, 2017 and 2018 was the first half of 8th.

I mean, Tyranids had more competitive lists than Marines in 2018 according to your own source.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/01/05 21:02:21


 
   
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FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I'm so confused by GW's choices as to which chapter is getting a focus as to scare me. There are currently people who would drown GW in money if they released primaris GK or Primaris LoD. But instead it's IF/Sal/BA/DA. I honestly can't understand who is deciding where to focus the love beam. It's like a Miss America pagent but instead of any of the finalist, the judges pick "It's PAT" from SNL.


This is honestly the same as its been since 2nd edition. Wolves, Angels, Angels and generic/Ultra. IF and the others have gotten tokens recently (a character), and that's it. They're still the generic '& others' in the SM lineup.

LotD was never a thing of their own. GK is down several level of niche and GW clearly sees their updates as a risk (to the point that in several editions they just didn't or stuck them in a WD article). They have better access to sales numbers and clearly don't see themselves 'drowning in money' if they update GK.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/01/05 21:08:38


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Mysterious Techpriest




One of many facts that has sailed completely over the heads of most around here.


Except for the part where we were talking about this pre-COVID as well. Covid definitely seems to have made it worse (I'm guessing here but I think most of the currently announced but unreleased marine stuff would almost certainly have been out already), but it didn't CAUSE the problem ...

This has been happening for some time.

Edit: I just googled ablutions and apparently it does not including dropping a duece. I should have looked it up early sorry for any confusion. - Baldsmug

Psiensis on the "good old days":
"Kids these days...
... I invented the 6th Ed meta back in 3rd ed.
Wait, what were we talking about again? Did I ever tell you about the time I gave you five bees for a quarter? That's what you'd say in those days, "give me five bees for a quarter", is what you'd say in those days. And you'd go down to the D&D shop, with an onion in your belt, 'cause that was the style of the time. So there I was in the D&D shop..." 
   
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Boom! Leman Russ Commander




I think we can all learn all we need about the validity of the general head in the sand-ness of Dakka Prognosticators by the sheer fact that after the release of sisters, people were claiming that 8th would be a "Living edition" and there was never going to be a 9th. I remember people getting in fights about even the possibility of 9th. Point is, no one here ever accurately predicts what GW will or won't do, did, or does because GW is a Rabid Honey Badger and it doesn't give a crap.
   
 
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