Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Pacific wrote:


Not to denigrate Armageddon at all, I love that game too. I can totally see why it is so popular in tournaments because it's a massively tactical game, and it's brilliant watching a very good player take apart an opponent with tactical acumen. But, I think for flavour (and for Orks especially) I think the 2nd edition Space Marine, and NetEpic, captures the character of the faction perfectly (from a time when they were at their most characterful).

Both 2nd and 4th ed epic have their strengths for sure.

I always say 2nd for pleasure, 4th for business.

2nd is my go to these days, but it does take a lot more time to play.

I’m getting weird hankerings to try 3rd again also...

There must be something in the air as I also have decided to get back into Epic 40k (3rd) after a 23 year absence. I promised myself just a marine and ork army to start with.

oops, after several really great deals and an order to Vanguard, I have marines, orks, eldar, tyranids, chaos, and guard. And when I say I have marines, I have like 3 marine armies. and like 2 ork armies. and 3 guard armies. Only about 1.5 Eldar armies though... even managed to get a giant pile of the very rare E40k Chaos stuff including several of the blink-and-you-missed-it 1997 plastic E40k chaos sprues...

I love the look and vibe of 2nd edition but playing it cured me off any nostalgia for the rules themselves.

I'm a big fan of the " Necromunda Community Edition" a slightly repaired and tweaked version of "Underhive". Had alot of fun with those rules.

I went and listened to Crown of Command after reading about it here. Thanks for the recommendation, it was a very pleasant listen.

Back at it, tracking down reasonably priced copies of Space Marine Battles, a compilation of WD articles.

Particularly keen on this one, as it includes new units and a rather great short story about a Chaos Markne.

I am still collecting old data cards. The problem is that unlike the current production run the old data-cards were limited production runs and so there never really were a lot.

For OOP books I look up a quality backup copy and use my skills at book binding to produce a long lasting copy just to have in the collection. I have the ability to print double sided near bleed high gloss heavy stock in color laser quality so I can make really nice reproductions, not fakes, it's pretty obvious they are not but I can hard-bind or soft cover depending on how much work I want to put out or the overall weight of the completed print if it's too heavy for a soft cover to last.
NO, I don't sell them. They are for my own self enjoyment. I like printing and binding. It's just one of the million hobbies I need to keep my mind happy.

 meatybtz wrote:
I am still collecting old data cards. The problem is that unlike the current production run the old data-cards were limited production runs and so there never really were a lot.

For OOP books I look up a quality backup copy and use my skills at book binding to produce a long lasting copy just to have in the collection. I have the ability to print double sided near bleed high gloss heavy stock in color laser quality so I can make really nice reproductions, not fakes, it's pretty obvious they are not but I can hard-bind or soft cover depending on how much work I want to put out or the overall weight of the completed print if it's too heavy for a soft cover to last.
NO, I don't sell them. They are for my own self enjoyment. I like printing and binding. It's just one of the million hobbies I need to keep my mind happy.

I’ve got a few kicking about. Let me know what you’re missing, and which edition.

Getting the old 3rd Ed. 40K books and 6th Ed. WFB books over again has been a real treat. Just wish getting some of those era's models were easier or cheaper to get. .

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Back at it, tracking down reasonably priced copies of Space Marine Battles, a compilation of WD articles.

Particularly keen on this one, as it includes new units and a rather great short story about a Chaos Markne.

Is that the one that went with the Blood Angels and Chaos battle report? That was very cool, very chaos-y chaos marines!

Da Boss wrote:I went and listened to Crown of Command after reading about it here. Thanks for the recommendation, it was a very pleasant listen.

The chap that runs the blog has constantly been posting with updates of painted Epic Orks and terrain (like the Golgotha terrain from the old WD battle reports) so hopefully not too long before they get Jon Webb back on and finish it off.

I think that’s the one. If not, no idea which book it is in!

 Pacific wrote:

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Back at it, tracking down reasonably priced copies of Space Marine Battles, a compilation of WD articles.

Particularly keen on this one, as it includes new units and a rather great short story about a Chaos Markne.

Is that the one that went with the Blood Angels and Chaos battle report? That was very cool, very chaos-y chaos marines!

Da Boss wrote:I went and listened to Crown of Command after reading about it here. Thanks for the recommendation, it was a very pleasant listen.

The chap that runs the blog has constantly been posting with updates of painted Epic Orks and terrain (like the Golgotha terrain from the old WD battle reports) so hopefully not too long before they get Jon Webb back on and finish it off.

Josh and I are recording again I want to say this weekend.

Should be doing a rematch soon too...

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Last year, I went on a mission to acquire every Rogue Trader era book. Managed it

You are my hero!

I don't have much from Rogue Trader, but I do have two copies of the rulebook (one hardback, one softcover), The Compilation and (somewhere, misplaced?) the Compendium.
I have all the 2nd ed codexes including the Sisters and Assassins books. I miiight have all the 3rd and 4th ed codexes. . . not entirely sure.

I've slowly been collecting older models over the past few years. Some of it I've searched out, and some of which has landed in my lap as old friends find random stuff and give it to me. I've got:

Nearly a hundred of the original plastic Tyranid Warriors, 60+ original plastic Genestealers.
A full company of RTB01s
four RT era Land Raiders, two Rhinos, one Dreadnought
30-40 plastic Squats
30-40 original plastic Guardsmen
A small collection of RT era Chaos Marines, Terminators and Dreadnought (30ish models?)
Probably some other stuff rattling around

A buddy of mine and I had just started playing 2nd edition and original Space Hulk before covid. It's harder to game now with covid and we both recently gained our respective second children.

2nd is a baller system for some really gritty and engaging games. I love it. I think 40K hit it's peak as a game during 4th edition though. Rules were great and the codexes were the best combination of lore, rules and customization. Epic and BFG were great too but I can't imagine starting collections in other scales atm, and I'm happy to settle for the occasional game of 2nd ed for the time being. I played 8th right up until the lockdowns, and haven't had an opportunity to play 9th.

I'm currently painting (slowly) my RT era Terminators. Captain, Librarian, and enough to make two five man squads plus extra heavy weapons to swap out. (I love the old Cyclone Missile Launcher). These guys are getting 25mm bases for our Space Hulk Games.

Secured my copy of Epic Space Marine Battles, should be here soon. Very much looking forward to reading those wonderful battle reports.

In terms of Rogue Trader, I particularly enjoy being able to track its very quick evolution from 1st to 2nd Ed.

The early books are more enthusiastic than competent. The rules are all over the shop, but the background really does make up for any failings.

But as you chew through them in order, things definitely get more orderly, to the point where the last couple are pretty much 2nd Ed books, illustrations and all.

It’s kinda sobering to realise that such a glorious early doors mess simply wouldn’t survive in the modern market. That’s how far hobby war gaming has come in a pretty short period of time. Because I’d say the same would hold true even mid-2nd Ed to early 3rd Ed.

I think it’s one of the reasons I find relative newcomers complaints about rules being in WD a bit...well, odd. That’s not to say their complaints are baseless (they absolutely aren’t), just that to a sad old grognard like me, that’s just the way it’s always been, and something I actively enjoy.

Great stuff Jonwebb It must be awkward with the time zone differences! (Isn't he in Japan or Australia?)

Totally know what you mean MDG - think in those days we just played with what we had. I think there were entire expansions that we didn't know about, rules updates etc. but it didn't seem to matter much and you just muddled through. No way of looking up rules online either so am sure there was a lot of stuff that got played incorrectly - one route was to write into GW, think I got replies from both Jervis Johnson and Gav Thorpe explaining a rule query I had (hand-written letters!) As for complaining about balance, well obviously you had never played against Nids in 2nd edition! It used to be an achievement if you didn't get tabled.

Think these days everything is so interconnected with the online communities and the level of expectation is far higher, a typo on p46 of a 200 page rulebook gets immediately seized upon and there are hundreds if not thousands of players looking to exploit every nook and cranny and army list combination. It makes it very difficult to square up all of the armies, and in some ways I wish they wouldn't try as every cut down army list and lack of options is a bit less character on the tabletop when comparing with some of those older games.

 meatybtz wrote:
I am still collecting old data cards. The problem is that unlike the current production run the old data-cards were limited production runs and so there never really were a lot.

Which data cards? If you're talking 2nd ed datafaxes I might have the full set including WD releases.

If you're talking the old Epic formations. . . Wow I'd love to get some pics of those!

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

 meatybtz wrote:
I am still collecting old data cards. The problem is that unlike the current production run the old data-cards were limited production runs and so there never really were a lot.

For OOP books I look up a quality backup copy and use my skills at book binding to produce a long lasting copy just to have in the collection. I have the ability to print double sided near bleed high gloss heavy stock in color laser quality so I can make really nice reproductions, not fakes, it's pretty obvious they are not but I can hard-bind or soft cover depending on how much work I want to put out or the overall weight of the completed print if it's too heavy for a soft cover to last.
NO, I don't sell them. They are for my own self enjoyment. I like printing and binding. It's just one of the million hobbies I need to keep my mind happy.

I’ve got a few kicking about. Let me know what you’re missing, and which edition.

Currently 7th Dark Eldar and 7th Skitarii.. I don't even know if they made a set for Cult Mechanicus (since they were separate armies back then.. GW was so hit and miss and limited print runs, not all books and armies got them, I don't think Chaos SM got them at all in 6th).

Found a set of Dark Eldar 7th cards on Fleabay but it was in England and the shipping was over twice the cost of the set. Ugh.

I’ve got the 7th Ed ones for....

Skitarii
Cult Mechanicus
Blood Angels (dunno why!)
Harlequins
Necrons
Orks
Khorne Daemonkin
Genestealer Cults.

And whilst not data cards as such, I’ve also got the Battlezone Empyric Storm card deck.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, when digging those out, found my Blood Bowl Star Players and Compendium books.

Replacements for the ones I got in Brighton as a kid.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I’ve got the 7th Ed ones for....

Skitarii
Cult Mechanicus
Blood Angels (dunno why!)
Harlequins
Necrons
Orks
Khorne Daemonkin
Genestealer Cults.

And whilst not data cards as such, I’ve also got the Battlezone Empyric Storm card deck.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, when digging those out, found my Blood Bowl Star Players and Compendium books.

Replacements for the ones I got in Brighton as a kid.

Glad you found the old school Blood Bowl book. It's always fun to unearth lost things. Wow Cult mech got a card deck? I don't think I even saw it ever listed for sale. I'd be interested in the Orks, Harlies, Cult Mech and Skitarri, but shipping between us might make it a no go :\ PM?

Looking at biting the bullet on Epic Hive War.

There’s only one eBay listing, which lacks peeachoors. Description is two sets, which are nearly complete.

Have asked the seller what they mean by Nearly Complete. I mean, a copy without the rulebook is nearly complete, as is one just missing say, 2 out 5 of a specific token, which are easily replaced.

He’s asking a fairly princely sum for it - and the listing has been up for a while. This may end up being a “make an offer” job. Spesh as I don’t really need or want two copies.

 stonehorse wrote:
Big fan of the simplicity of 3rd edition 40k with just the lists from the core rule book, same for 6th edition WFB with just Ravening Hordes.

Less about gimmicks, and big flashy new models and more about grunts, and players making good choices on the table and not list building.

My preference would be 4th edition Warhammer and the army list booklet in that box, but otherwise I agree. In 40k, I'd choose 2nd edition with the "black booklet" for platoon-level games, and 8th or 9th with the Index books for large-scale games. I'd like to give 1st edition a try at some point, but I don't think I'd like to try and play "all" of it, as it ended up by 1993.

I played a lot of 2nd edition Epic, but I really feel that Epic Armageddon does the best job out of all four editions of really getting into the flavour of the factions at a large scale. Marines absolutely feel like Marines, dropping out of the sky and capturing objectives in lightning raids. Before the new Adeptus Titanicus came out, I ran the 1st edition game at a few wargames shows. I was really surprised about how straightforward the rules are (before you ruin it with the Codex Titanicus material ), and I could see myself continuing to pay that if the new game hadn't come along.

I think, though, my preference would be to mine each edition for the things I liked and house-rule them together. For example, 2nd edition 40k, with the force organisation charts from 3rd edition might work, or Kill Team and the GM-led scenarios from 1st edition 40k, that sort of thing.

3rd edition was my first, so there's some nostalgia there for me, but there's also just something to having everything you need to play a game in one book.

 amazingturtles wrote:
3rd edition was my first, so there's some nostalgia there for me, but there's also just something to having everything you need to play a game in one book.

3rd was also a completely different beast at the start and the end. Right off the bat (once you got over the massive change from 2nd) it was great. Some of the rules were a little clunky, but hey, it’s 40k, that’s normal. But as codexes started to drop, not only did you have issues with big book vs. codex games (which were not even remotely fair) but the codex creep was harsh. So if you got an early book you got to stomp the people still using the hold me over lists, but once they got a book that was newer then yours, things turned around pretty quick.

And while it was nice that they updated and added more rules, near the end of the cycle almost no part of the main book was valid, and you needed a stack of WDs to play.

Still probably my favorite edition, but again, lot of nostalgia there. I played RT more as an RPG, and only a handful of small games of 2nd. So it was my first real run of 40k as a wargame, and I played a LOT.

Also depends on the army you played.

Blood Angels and Dark Angels needed the core Codex and the sub Codex.

As a confessed Sad Old Git, I don’t have fond memories of 3rd Ed.

Sure. The game needed slimming down, rationalising and streamlining, but my take away from it was ‘baby thrown out with the bath water”.

Just felt like the background was relegated in favour of cheaper, thinner rule books.

Thankfully, that “crash diet” phase was relatively short lived, and around 5th (I think) we saw some of the weapon diversity return.

I guess if I could sum up 3rd Ed as someone that cut their teef on 2nd Ed is ‘anaemic’. The rules were for the most part objectively better, but it sold its soul in the effort.

I started in 2e but it seemed really sprawling and mysterious to me. Like you needed cards for a lot of the vehicles, and you needed a separate box for all the wargear and psychic rules and stuff. I never felt like I understood it all, but I didn't much care either.

3e was a huge shock, but once I got over it, I started to appreciate the game being concise enough that I felt I could understand the whole thing as a system. And being able to look at all the forces and imagine how they would play was really fun. And ever since I have enjoyed systems like that where you can grasp them and have a view to the entire game from reading the main book. I have to say that's the main thing I find offputting about modern 40K, all the stratagems and stuff seem like so much to keep track of that I just give up before I get started.

So I look to 3e as kind of my "golden age" of 40K. And I feel the same about 6e Warhammer Fantasy, for similar reasons.

2nd edition came about, because the 1st edition rules were creaking under the weight of trying to play games with up to fifty models and a vehicle or two (or, Emperor forbid, an entire squad n bikes!). Likewise, 3rd edition realised that people were trying to play company-sized games with a ruleset designed for platoon-level games, so they stripped out a lot of the stuff that affected single models in a squad, and lost as many of the lingering effects as possible - being set on fire, recharging plasma weapons etc.

You can see something similar with the change from 2nd edition Epic to Epic 40,000 - everything that wasn't relevant to a regimental commander was dropped and streamlined to provide the sort of high-level command and manoeuvre experience you should have at that scale, rather than worrying about the sponsons on one tank.

I'd argue that every Chapter could be adequately represented using just the simple army list in the 3rd edition rulebook (or the one in the 2nd edition box, too).

Fair arguments

Though I still claim 2nd Ed Epic to be the best!

Something I didn’t really appreciate at the time was how each army had specific perks.

In terms of getting your VPs, you had Objectives go seize, and enemy units to force to their Break Point.

Break Points were defined by the unit card. Usually points were awarded by reducing the unit to half strength. But, Squats had to be take to quarter strength. It doesn’t sound a lot, but it means you’ve got to work harder, and use a different strategy.

Marines were the best all rounders, but didn’t have much in the way of properly heavy firepower or tanks. What they did have was mobility, as most of not all units came with Rhinos or Jump Packs. This made them a very aggressive force, one to be play the game on its own terms.

Eldar? Warlocks were quite saucy, as they allowed units within their Buff Bubble to apply orders once the enemy had revealed theirs. Again may not sound like much of a perk, but used well you can run rings around your enemy, as you’ve the advantage of reaction.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
In other Epic news (well, olds), I’m glad I didn’t buy those copies of Hive War.

The seller considers the lack of the rule book to be “near complete”.

I most vehemently disagreed.

My God.. it's lucky you checked !

What a joke, that would have been a return and negative feedback for that person from me.

Agree about the character of 2nd edition Epic forces. I think I said already above in the thread, but the Ork forces in that game are just so characterful. I would say possibly the most varied and 'fun' set of rules in terms of how Orks have ever been represented.
Tyranids look like a lot of fun too with the Hive synapse rules and similar. Sadly I think they came along too late in the day in Space Marine's release for me to try them (I think) but would love to have a go with them.

I loved the army construction method for Tyranids in 2nd Ed Epic. The hexagon/hive mind structure was very cool.

It’s a rule set I never got, but having a passing familiarity with.

If memory serves, instead of Company and Support Cards, you have Hive Mind beasties.

Each could support a set number of other gribblies - from two for Warriors, to six for the biggest beasties like the Dominatrix?

Desperate to find a complete copy!

Rogue Trader side (as it’s a gloriously anarchic mess), it’s nice to see my fond recollections aren’t just rose tinted glasses. Epic certainly offered a decent amount of variety between the armies without breaking the rules.

Orks? Break points were cumulative for the Company Card and Support Cards.

Imperial Guard? Needed to maintain your command structure if you wanted to issue Orders.

Every army was subtly different, and needed a different approach. Space Marines for example, thanks to their Rhino Transports, were pretty fast moving. As they didn’t have the raw firepower of other forces, a safe approach was dominating objectives, and victimising the right enemy units to bag the remaining VPs you needed.

What a wonderful game! And there’s a boxed copy on eBay for £150 right now..... Been there for a while, so just made an offer. If that pans out? Should just be Titan Legions and Hive War to go....

I remember when Titan Legions came out. The sheer number of guns on the Mega-Gargant was impressive.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
If memory serves, instead of Company and Support Cards, you have Hive Mind beasties.

Each could support a set number of other gribblies - from two for Warriors, to six for the biggest beasties like the Dominatrix?

Yeah. That was it. Always made me wish they'd do unique FOCs for each race in 40k.

Instead we got the current slew of generic FOCs which, in a lot of ways, defeat the purpose of the FOC.