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I don't think the ork would take a pay cut......

... He could put his talent to work on his spare time.

Vatsetis wrote:The aim of this post is not polemistic, I just wanted to better understand how SM actually move.

Space Marines move like how everything in this fictional universe moves - with fictional logic. It's as simple as that.

SM arent neither giant robots like Titans (or even Dreadnoughts) nor warp deamons...they are ment to be infantry, so its sort of interesting to understand which are their capabilities as an infantry unit.

It doesn't matter - Titans shouldn't be able to move, but I don't see you complaining. Ogryns, Bullgryns, Crisis Suits, Terminators, Orks - these things violate so many laws of biological motion of real life physics on their own accord. Therefore, we cannot apply real life logic to them. We can only use the logic that we are given in universe - and if you so want to, you can *criticise* that fictional logic, question it's necessity and why those aspects of handwavium are applied, but at the end of the day, every single claim you've made about Space Marines being inflexible, or immobile, or ineffective in combat has been resoundingly disproven by the lore of the setting.

Ultimately, the only things that matter are what the lore has presented - so if you want a better idea of what the lore presents, reading extracts of it would be great. However, we see below how you treat extracts of the lore...

Vatsetis wrote:That paragrah of Age of Darkness seems very subjective in its tone. You cannot use that as reliable source for SM actual mobility... Only that they look scary and unnatural when moving.

What is subjective about it? What part of it is any less reliable than any other source?
Or is this your way of trying to ignore evidence that disproves your beliefs?

Vatsetis wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
You seem to have it in your head that because of their not inconsiderable weight, Astartes must be lumbering lummoxes.

Im just trying to better understand how SM work

Then reading what users post would be a good start, instead of saying how it's simply impossible how such a thing can be done, and that users are biased for pointing out how Space Marines work - ie, the same way everything in 40k works.

Spare time isn’t for working

I do a pretty stressful job, so the last thing I want to be doing on my own time is be sat in front of a computer typing away.

To be honest I’m just really passionate about the background - far more so than the actual game. It’s got serious depth beyond simply telling stories.

Astartes are fairly poorly represented in the game mechanics. That’s perhaps not the criticism it seems, as they’ve never really lived up to the background in terms of rules - except perhaps in Inquisitor, where they were mental hard.

And even in the novels, it’s fairly rare we see the true horror of fighting Astartes. Instead, it’s the descriptive background, and the odd short story where the real nitty gritty lives.

Much of my waffling comes from the descriptions of the various additional organs which make an Astartes an Astartes, and extrapolating what a being with all those perks would be capable of.

A particular short story which sticks in my mind comes from an old White Dwarf, probably around 20 years ago. Sadly I can’t be more specific than that. But it described Astartes taking out a renegade Imperial Guard command bunker. The most visceral bit is when an Astartes casually backhands a Guardsman, and just obliterated the guys head. No power fist. Just Power Armour.

When you factor in that ridiculous strength, and that Astartes just don’t tire? You see the horrific potential.

Take even a single Astartes, and let him loose in an enemy bunker complex. It’s going to be a tremendously one sided fight. Sure, security doors will slow him, but they won’t stop him. He can even comfortably conserve ammo for stronger defence points, because he’ll literally tear your human defenders limb from limb. And at a frankly staggering speed.

Sure, you might have 200 goon squad members. But you can bring them all to bear (bare? I can never remember) at the same time, because it’s a bunker complex.

You can only send so many against him at any one time. Meanwhile, you sit in the most secure area, watching him absolutely tear the arse out of anything you send at him. Think Luke’s star turn in The Mandalorian, but with buckets of gore, and the certainty it’s not going to stop when he gets to your front door.

Sure, if you’ve got some heavy weapons you might be able to kill him. But your men are going to be filling their trousers when they see him about his bloody work. That’s gonna do nothing for their aim and general discipline. Plus, you’d assuredly set it up at a junction of some kind. He’ll know that, or at least be able to predict it. So don’t think he’d do anything so mundane as stumble into your evil trap.

And that’s just one Astartes. Shame they don’t tend to strike alone. You’re up against a Demi-squad at absolute best. With their built in comms, they don’t need to stick together. They can split up and just tear through anything and everything you can throw at them.

It might take them a couple of days to get to you. But that’s a couple of days without stopping. A non-stop, inevitable onslaught of frankly mind boggling violence.

And they’d probably not be too fussed about taking out your cameras as they go. I mean, they could and they might. But they want you to know they’re coming. They want you to have constant, visual reminders of the charnel trail they’ve left in their wake.

No injured. No walking wounded. Nobody getting patched up. Just corpses. A gory reminder of your impotence, and coming doom.

So, have no one find yet any graphic evidence of SM fighting while prone?

Even fan made drawings or miniatures would be welcome.

Frankly I just want the SM not being as silly as the orks, which are the comic relief of the setting.

This depiction of Astartes being like Ben Afflecks Batmam seems very inspired, but Im not sure thats how a proper military unit is ment to work.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
PD: Doc, telling you to work for BL was not an actual propossal... It was just flattering.

Vatsetis wrote:So, have no one find yet any graphic evidence of SM fighting while prone?

Even fan made drawings or miniatures would be welcome.

There's written evidence.

I have yet to see any graphic evidence either of a Space Marine picking a flower, or writing something, but undoubtedly they are capable of it. Why is written evidence not enough? Can something only exist if it's drawn?

Frankly I just want the SM not being as silly as the orks, which are the comic relief of the setting.

Everything in 40k is silly. Sorry to break that to you, but this is setting where chainswords are considered viable weaponry.

This depiction of Astartes being like Ben Afflecks Batmam seems very inspired, but Im not sure thats how a proper military unit is ment to work.

Proper military units don't have to fight daemons and sentient fungi.

Vatsetis wrote:
BTW is there any lore technical explanaition of how do the SM reduce their significant ground pressure (which will be a problem when ussing their high speed on soft ground)??

So, a standard human has a ground pressure of 60-80kPa, according to wikipedia. Bear in mind this is not a human encumbered by military gear, who will have a higher pressure again. A 550kg horse has about 170kPa.

Having looked up Marine weights in armour, generally about 500-1000kg is the range (this is given in FFG Deathwatch core book, but seems fairly consistent). The upper end appears to be for heavier armour like MKIII too, and maybe Terminator armour (it is not clear).

A space marine armoured foot is considerably wider and larger than a human foot. I've estimated 30cm by 15cm (12" by 6") based on looking at them on models and art. My own foot is 9.5" by 4" for comparison (and isn't a big lozenge shape like power armour).

Going with the upper bound of 1000kg and that foot size, an armoured Marine standing on one leg would only have a ground pressure of ~220kPa (217.77), which is less than, say, a human in stilettos. A 500kg Marine would have 110kPa, less than double that of a human. I don't think this would at all cause issues in most terrain. Marshy terrain would be troublesome, but then it is for humans too.

Most buildings can probably tolerate a ton with that pressure fairly well too, most modern lifts can carry more than a ton up a building even!

Space Marine boot is gonna be way bigger than your estimate.

I’m 6’2”, 17 stone, and my feets are 11” long, 4.5” wide in my stinky socks.

My trainers? 13” long, 5” wide.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Space Marine boot is gonna be way bigger than your estimate.

I’m 6’2”, 17 stone, and my feets are 11” long, 4.5” wide in my stinky socks.

My trainers? 13” long, 5” wide.

Aye, and a space marine foot is going to be in an armored boot. My leather steel toes are 15×6, and I'm 6", 195#. An armored space marine boot would be a LOT bigger. Think Shaquille O'Neil in steel toes, but even BIGGER than that.

Thanks for that analysis Haigus BTW.

My old New Rocks were probably around 14” long thanks to their daft soles. Possibly longer.

This is a weird post. It feels like a brag, but it’s not a brag.

It was a conservative estimate for an upper bound Plus, I calculated based on a rectangle, not a lozenge, so the actual foot with that surface area would be bigger.

 Haighus wrote:

Vatsetis wrote:
BTW is there any lore technical explanaition of how do the SM reduce their significant ground pressure (which will be a problem when ussing their high speed on soft ground)??

So, a standard human has a ground pressure of 60-80kPa, according to wikipedia. Bear in mind this is not a human encumbered by military gear, who will have a higher pressure again. A 550kg horse has about 170kPa.

Having looked up Marine weights in armour, generally about 500-1000kg is the range (this is given in FFG Deathwatch core book, but seems fairly consistent). The upper end appears to be for heavier armour like MKIII too, and maybe Terminator armour (it is not clear).

A space marine armoured foot is considerably wider and larger than a human foot. I've estimated 30cm by 15cm (12" by 6") based on looking at them on models and art. My own foot is 9.5" by 4" for comparison (and isn't a big lozenge shape like power armour).

Going with the upper bound of 1000kg and that foot size, an armoured Marine standing on one leg would only have a ground pressure of ~220kPa (217.77), which is less than, say, a human in stilettos. A 500kg Marine would have 110kPa, less than double that of a human. I don't think this would at all cause issues in most terrain. Marshy terrain would be troublesome, but then it is for humans too.

Most buildings can probably tolerate a ton with that pressure fairly well too, most modern lifts can carry more than a ton up a building even!

Nice post... The problem comes from the fact that SM dont work alone like Batman or the Punisher (who can team up with a sidekick or have a technical back up at most)... But rather operate as an actual military (in groups of 5/10 individuals as a minimum) and is that group deployment which will create difficulties in tight or swampy enviroments.

BTW... "Transhuman Dread" would only affect very few of the actual Astartes foes... Heretic Astartes wont get scared of themselves... Tyranids, Necrons or Daemons are beyond fear... Orks would find it challenging or funny rather than frightening... Eldars will find it laughable... Taus might be temporarily affected but the indoctrination in the ways of the Greater Good should be prevalent in the end... High end Imperial agencies are on par with Astartes or have seen much worse... So that basically reduces the scope of this terror to Gretchins, green Imperial Guards or Defence forces (suspected traitors) and perhaps some other weak background xeno forces... So in essence it only works on those that have grown hearing tales about the "Angels of Death" but never actually fight them... Hardly impressive as a terror tool.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
My old New Rocks were probably around 14” long thanks to their daft soles. Possibly longer.

This is a weird post. It feels like a brag, but it’s not a brag.

Nah. It's a good way to get a semi-accurate comparison. My feet are 10×4 barefoot, size 11 1/2 EEE, so steel toes add roughly 50% in both length and width. A quick Google search shows Shaq, who at 7" 1 and around 300# is close to a human Astartes equivalent, wears size 14, and has 16" long feet. So in armored boots that's about 24" long and ? wide.

How does that change your calculations Haigus?

Vatsetis wrote:
BTW... "Transhuman Dread" would only affect very few of the actual Astartes foes...

Let's break that down, shall we?

Heretic Astartes wont get scared of themselves...

The actual Astartes won't but the Cultists and Traitor Guard sure as hell will.

Tyranids, Necrons or Daemons are beyond fear...

Tyranids might be and most Necrons sure but Daemons? No, Daemons feel fear, especially the big ones.

Orks would find it challenging or funny rather than frightening...

That's not true. Orks might like a good scrap but they still break when things get bad. And seeing something do a headlong charge into your wall of guns and big sticks without a care in the world? Yeah, Orks feel fear.

Eldars will find it laughable...

Yes, I'm sure the citizen militia would be laughing at the 8-foot tall monster sprinting at them full force screaming obscenities about the Aeldari.

Taus might be temporarily affected but the indoctrination in the ways of the Greater Good should be prevalent in the end...

Not when you see the rest of your Cadre torn apart by massive armoured barbarians with chainsaws as combat weapons.

High end Imperial agencies are on par with Astartes or have seen much worse...

Hearing stories and seeing something in person are two very different experiences. Custodes might not react but an Inquisitor is still just a human and feel terror as much as any other human. Unless an individual has their basic instinct of survival removed, they're still going to be scared of a Space Marine.

So that basically reduces the scope of this terror to Gretchins, green Imperial Guards or Defence forces (suspected traitors) and perhaps some other weak background xeno forces...

There is not a single shred of evidence to support any of your claims here.

So in essence it only works on those that have grown hearing tales about the "Angels of Death" but never actually fight them... Hardly impressive as a terror tool.

So basically everyone within the Imperium then? Yeah, I'm not sure you actually know what you're talking about.

Vatsetis wrote:BTW... "Transhuman Dread" would only affect very few of the actual Astartes foes... Heretic Astartes wont get scared of themselves... Tyranids, Necrons or Daemons are beyond fear... Orks would find it challenging or funny rather than frightening... Eldars will find it laughable... Taus might be temporarily affected but the indoctrination in the ways of the Greater Good should be prevalent in the end... High end Imperial agencies are on par with Astartes or have seen much worse... So that basically reduces the scope of this terror to Gretchins, green Imperial Guards or Defence forces (suspected traitors) and perhaps some other weak background xeno forces... So in essence it only works on those that have grown hearing tales about the "Angels of Death" but never actually fight them... Hardly impressive as a terror tool.

Heretic Astartes, Tyranids, Necrons and Daemons, sure.

Orks are still very much capable of fear, and would likely be at least psychologically disturbed by it.
Eldar would find it *unnatural*, in the same way that we might find extreme acts of strength or power from animals unnaturally terrifying on a primal level - again, Eldar are a very proud race, but when the primitive savage humans are throwing their giant gene-modded apes at you who move just as fast as you, hit harder than you, and can shrug off your shuriken catapults, that'll put you off.
Tau "indoctrination" isn't that strong - they're still mortal, and Space Marines are still horrifying giants.
High end Imperial agencies might be fine, but they're still contending with that primal psychological *wrongness* of Astartes speed. It might not be fear, but an Inquisitor will still be thoroughly unnerved by Astartes speed.

So no, I still think, on a psychological level, transhuman dread is still effective against non-human threats, and even *if* it was just human threats, that still makes them an excellent tool in suppressing rebellions - as mentioned earlier, just the presence of Ventris on Pavonis was enough to quell the riots. That's some impressive crowd control there.

Im really going to roll my eyes to the idea that an Assasin or Inquisitor or a group of SOB are going to go into panic mode just because an squad of Astartes charge them... Wouldnt that make them useless against the CSM which they engage on a regular basis?

Frankly all this "astartes dread" myth looks more as the sort of campfire fright story that veteran guards men will tell the rookies to look cool and dangerous.

Even hopeless chaos cultist fighting together with Heretic Astartes will have no major psicological issues when engaging loyalist Astartes.

The novel Savage Scars - Imperium Crusade vs Tau. Yes, Transhuman dread is a thing to the Tau. When watching through the sensors of a stealth suit that ended on the business end of a chainsword even a few of the command staff safe in orbit shat themselves. The White Scar screaming incoherently helped a little.

Also a good novel to show the level of disdain Titans have when there is no suitable opponent around.

Vatsetis wrote:
Im really going to roll my eyes to the idea that an Assasin or Inquisitor or a group of SOB are going to go into panic mode just because an squad of Astartes charge them... Wouldnt that make them useless against the CSM which they engage on a regular basis?

No-one said panic.
Unnerved? Yes, absolutely. And yes, it absolutely would make CSM equally intimidating and prone to causing those kinds of "oh god how can that thing react so fast" responses that transhuman dread inspires.

That's why the best way to deal with CSM on the Imperium's side is to use forces that are resistant to transhuman dread - Assassins who have been so chemically and neurologically altered that they don't have a fear reflex, other Astartes, Sisters of Silence, due to their Blank aura, and Custodes, who are even faster.
Sisters of Battle would be *more* effective than guardsmen, but they're still mortal.
Inquisitors are a completely mixed bag. Some Inquisitors probably would be able to stare down a charging Astartes without succumbing to transhuman dread, but these are likely your big name ones, your Coteaz's and Solomon Lok's. Your standard Inquisitor rarely even sees the *battlefield*, let alone an Astartes. They are *political* beasts, not warleaders.

Frankly all this "astartes dread" myth looks more as the sort of campfire fright story that veteran guards men will tell the rookies to look cool and dangerous.

Riiiiight... did you actually *read* the extract where it mentions transhuman dread? Because you'd see that's precisely not what it is.

Honestly, it just looks like you're being wilfully ignorant now.

Even hopeless chaos cultist fighting together with Heretic Astartes will have no major psicological issues when engaging loyalist Astartes.

Suuuuuure - just like how guardsmen would never flee ever and suffer no psychological issues if they fought any kinds of xenos so long as there were loyalist Astartes there?

Is everyone in 40k just immune to morale effects now?

Vatsetis wrote:
Im really going to roll my eyes to the idea that an Assasin

Throne of Lies by Aaron Dembski Bowden has a Callidus hunted by a squad of Night Lords, she feels fear.

or Inquisitor

Inquisitors are all still human. You're mistaking people like Karamazov and Eisenhorn for common rank and file Inquisitors when they are very much the exception.

or a group of SOB

There is a limit to the amount of fear rabid zealotry will suppress. When CSM attacks SoB, the SoB don't go "pft this is nothing, I'm not afraid of them". They start to pray harder because they know how dangerous Astartes are.

are going to go into panic mode just because an squad of Astartes charge them...Wouldnt that make them useless against the CSM which they engage on a regular basis?

There is a difference between fear and panic. Panic is what you would expect from regular mortals fumbling their guns or being trapped in a state of shock. Fear slowly but surely eats away at your resolve and can lead to panic.

Frankly all this "astartes dread" myth looks more as the sort of campfire fright story that veteran guards men will tell the rookies to look cool and dangerous.

Except it's not because its a consistent feature of Space Marines in fiction.

Even hopeless chaos cultist fighting together with Heretic Astartes will have no major psicological issues when engaging loyalist Astartes.

Any evidence to support this?

umm the whole bit about astartes dread was from a (loyalist) trooper fighting astartes the first time. Yopu cite all these "things it won't impact" but remember, when the emperor made the space marines, who his opponents where...

at the time of the first founding the expected space marine opponents where: Ork empires, the odd eldar enclave, but by and large... MOSTLY HUMANS WHO WON'T BEND THE KNEE.

there where no tyranids, there where no necrons, there where no heretic astartes etc.

Besiudes the astartes dread passage was mostly brought up because you where questioning how fast Astartes moved. no one is saying in modern 40k marines are magicical troops that EVERYONE is afraid of (in fact I'd argue part of the reason for the IoM decline is because their crack elite troops AREN'T terrifying to so many of their foes)

Gert wrote:

Vatsetis wrote:
Im really going to roll my eyes to the idea that an Assasin

Throne of Lies by Aaron Dembski Bowden has a Callidus hunted by a squad of Night Lords, she feels fear.

I'm willing to say that Assassins *generally* are resistant/immune - I think it's more that these are Night Lords specifically that does this one.

are going to go into panic mode just because an squad of Astartes charge them...Wouldnt that make them useless against the CSM which they engage on a regular basis?

There is a difference between fear and panic. Panic is what you would expect from regular mortals fumbling their guns or being trapped in a state of shock. Fear slowly but surely eats away at your resolve and can lead to panic.

Absolutely. *Dread* would definitely take a grip on any mortal combatant, in much the same way that we experience dread looking over a steep ledge, or at an uncontrollable flood or fire. You might not run, but you're certainly going to be affected on some level by it.

Even hopeless chaos cultist fighting together with Heretic Astartes will have no major psicological issues when engaging loyalist Astartes.

Any evidence to support this?

And remember, apparently it has to be *graphic* evidence!

It’s not a myth though, is it? It’s about as factual as anything can be in a fictional setting, let alone one as knowingly daft as 40K.

And as for Orks? Boss Poles often feature Astartes helmets for a reason. They’re recognised as a deadly foe, so displaying such a trophy is a statement of how ‘ard you are (unless you nicked it…)

Astartes are an excellent tool against Orks, because they’ll strike at the Warboss’ location to begin the collapse of the Waaagh!

Because as soon as the Orks are disrupted, you can start taking them out whilst they’re distracted. Hit hard enough, and the Waaagh! will lose all momentum.

This is best demonstrated in the admittedly Astartes free Ciaphas Cain novel. Now those are somewhat tongue in cheek in feel - but don’t play especially fast and loose with the background.

In essence, Cain accidentally winds up gatecrashing the Warboss’ camp, and duelling said Warboss. He contrives a win, which leads to the Nobz immediately scrapping out to become the new Warboss.

BrianDavion wrote:
no one is saying in modern 40k marines are magicical troops that EVERYONE is afraid of (in fact I'd argue part of the reason for the IoM decline is because their crack elite troops AREN'T terrifying to so many of their foes)

I would argue that Astartes are still terrifying there just aren't as many to do the terrorising and they aren't really conquering planets anymore so much as preventing their conquering. I did some quick maths and the total number of Astartes in their Legion days sits at around 2.2 million. Compare that to the assumed 1k Chapters there are now (assuming there are 1k and they all sit at around 1k-ish Astartes) then we're only looking at 1 million, which is a significant reduction. Add in the whole "Emperor's Angels" religious aspect which is used much more compared to the "Angels of Death" description then you have Astartes being viewed as heroic saviours rather than murder tanks in the view of the standard Imperial.

 Haighus wrote:

Vatsetis wrote:
BTW is there any lore technical explanaition of how do the SM reduce their significant ground pressure (which will be a problem when ussing their high speed on soft ground)??

So, a standard human has a ground pressure of 60-80kPa, according to wikipedia. Bear in mind this is not a human encumbered by military gear, who will have a higher pressure again. A 550kg horse has about 170kPa.

Having looked up Marine weights in armour, generally about 500-1000kg is the range (this is given in FFG Deathwatch core book, but seems fairly consistent). The upper end appears to be for heavier armour like MKIII too, and maybe Terminator armour (it is not clear).

A space marine armoured foot is considerably wider and larger than a human foot. I've estimated 30cm by 15cm (12" by 6") based on looking at them on models and art. My own foot is 9.5" by 4" for comparison (and isn't a big lozenge shape like power armour).

Going with the upper bound of 1000kg and that foot size, an armoured Marine standing on one leg would only have a ground pressure of ~220kPa (217.77), which is less than, say, a human in stilettos. A 500kg Marine would have 110kPa, less than double that of a human. I don't think this would at all cause issues in most terrain. Marshy terrain would be troublesome, but then it is for humans too.

Most buildings can probably tolerate a ton with that pressure fairly well too, most modern lifts can carry more than a ton up a building even!

In essence on solid footing a Space Marine doesn't suffer at all, but in soft ground it gets exponentially bad. A flooded grass field would turn into a swamp for him and in an actual swamp it would be like being in quicksand. In most buildings except perhaps a slum or a ruined hellscape, he would be fine too.

Space Marines are indeed terrifying opponents to fight for any normal human soldiers, but, ironically, in a setting where everything is cranked up to 11, they are just slightly more scary then the average combatant. Ork Nobz, anything Tyranid, anything Necron, most Dark Eldar thing, almost anything daemon. Hell even your "standard guardsman" is a man or a woman who was born and raised to be a soldier and nothing else and then was trained by complete maniacs to be the best he or she could. A standard Cadian is basically so heavily trained and indoctrinated they would make a Navy SEAL look like an amateur (3 years of intensive training please, I had more than that before I became a frinkin' cadet).

Vatsetis wrote:
Im really going to roll my eyes to the idea that an Assasin or Inquisitor or a group of SOB are going to go into panic mode just because an squad of Astartes charge them... Wouldnt that make them useless against the CSM which they engage on a regular basis?

Frankly all this "astartes dread" myth looks more as the sort of campfire fright story that veteran guards men will tell the rookies to look cool and dangerous.

Even hopeless chaos cultist fighting together with Heretic Astartes will have no major psicological issues when engaging loyalist Astartes.

No one is engaging Heretic Astartes on a "regular basis". They're just as rare in the galaxy at large as loyalist Astartes. Your average SoB is used to fighting more human opponents, like Traitor Guard or cultists. An actual Heretic Astartes would be a rare sight, much less an actual full force of them.

Modern office buildings are designed for between 3 and 5 kN/sq.m. Plant areas allow for 7.5. 5kN is about 500kg, I don’t think marines could cluster closer than 1m, or really share the floor space with much else. Therefore marines would be able to move through modern buildings without overloading their floor systems unless they really start jumping up and down. They might have a problem with punching shear if they get excited.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, while marines may nit be able to raise their head due to the helmet interfering with their backpack and gorget, they have auto senses and weapon targeters, so they don’t really need to point their head in the direction they want to fire in.

BrianDavion wrote:
umm the whole bit about astartes dread was from a (loyalist) trooper fighting astartes the first time. Yopu cite all these "things it won't impact" but remember, when the emperor made the space marines, who his opponents where...

at the time of the first founding the expected space marine opponents where: Ork empires, the odd eldar enclave, but by and large... MOSTLY HUMANS WHO WON'T BEND THE KNEE.

there where no tyranids, there where no necrons, there where no heretic astartes etc.

Besiudes the astartes dread passage was mostly brought up because you where questioning how fast Astartes moved. no one is saying in modern 40k marines are magicical troops that EVERYONE is afraid of (in fact I'd argue part of the reason for the IoM decline is because their crack elite troops AREN'T terrifying to so many of their foes)

Thanks, this makes perfect sense.

Good to see Marines wont actually collapse a standard building floor just by moving arround.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Vatsetis wrote:
Im really going to roll my eyes to the idea that an Assasin or Inquisitor or a group of SOB are going to go into panic mode just because an squad of Astartes charge them... Wouldnt that make them useless against the CSM which they engage on a regular basis?

Frankly all this "astartes dread" myth looks more as the sort of campfire fright story that veteran guards men will tell the rookies to look cool and dangerous.

Even hopeless chaos cultist fighting together with Heretic Astartes will have no major psicological issues when engaging loyalist Astartes.

No one is engaging Heretic Astartes on a "regular basis". They're just as rare in the galaxy at large as loyalist Astartes. Your average SoB is used to fighting more human opponents, like Traitor Guard or cultists. An actual Heretic Astartes would be a rare sight, much less an actual full force of them.

This weird spot in the lore in which astartes (loyalist or heretic) have allegedly Superheroe level powers on an individual level but are so rare as too be considered a Myth in universe is annoying.

Space Marines arent Task Force X or the Avengers... They are a proper (and for the most part regular) military unit. Thats what you see when you open a codex...

... SoB as an organization are going to constantly engage with Chaos forces, including the CSM if they are in any meaningfull sector... Yes the novice its going to be impressed by this dread at first but they are backup by an organization that is resilient and resourceful, not just canon fodder for the CSM.

There are roughly 1,000,000 Imperial Astartes at large in the Galaxy.

The Galaxy is unfashionably huge. As in, us mere real mortals really can’t grasp it, because our brains have never experienced such a vast area.

There are billions of Imperial Guard, at a conservative estimate.

And there are tens if not hundreds of thousands of active war zones across the Galaxy.

For the most part? The Imperial Guard and non-Astartes fighting forces are more than enough to get the job done. Sheer weight of numbers and favourable logistics will see to that.

The number of warzones that need Astartes intervention is comparatively small - and so to see an Astartes at war would be rare.

It’s only lynchpin worlds such as Armageddon where a serious and sustained Astartes presence is required. So even when the Astartes do turn up? Even a full battle Company? The majority of the Imperial forces aren’t going to see them, because their presence is so minimal, they’re almost exclusively reserved for decapitation or other vital streaks. In, wreck the place, out and onto to the next one.

Sure, you’ll hear they’re planetside. And you might even hear rumours of how terrifying they were to witness. And some very carefully selected pict-casts might make it into circulation.

But, thanks to Imperial propaganda, where the existence of Chaos is actively denied, and the threat of all Xenos seriously underplayed to prevent panic? You’re not going to get footage of the Astartes wrecking the place. That’s suppressed, especially as Astartes casualties are likely when taking out the enemy command,

This is all part of what makes 40K so immersive in my eyes.

Depends on the Chapter as well. The Ultramarines or Black Templars might make public appearances to boost morale but Chapters like the Raven Guard might not even tell the local Imperial forces they're present. Heck, the Carcharadons actively repress any knowledge of their involvement in conflicts, like how they saved the Blood Angels during the Ghost War but all monuments dedicated to them had obsidian discs for faces and no blank iconography.

Vatsetis wrote:
Men, this is an element of the lore badly translated to the miniatures and art... Those armor suits and specially the shoulder pads look rigid as hell.

The outer shell of armour plates can look however rigid they want. The inner workings, hidden from view, is where the techno-magic happens.

Always assume first that there is some sci-fi reason that odd things work, rather than assuming something cannot work. We should reason so as to explain how it fits together, not reason for why this or that don't make any sense at all and should not be a thing. That's a last resort if some introduction to the setting comes off as most jarring with the rest of the worldbuilding.

Auto-reactive armour is a long-established piece of background, but even without official references we would have been able to infer its existence from looking at the clunky models. The science part of science fantasy is not to be discarded. Things can be bonkers, but even the most absurd things will make sense to those who carry them out, even if they appear bizarre to outsiders.