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Decrepit Dakkanaut




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Doesn't sound a good move to be honest, too much temptation to shout for changes that benefit themselves rather than the overall game

 
   
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Purge this partnership, purge it with fire...

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 Kanluwen wrote:
This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.

Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army... 
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut




I just want to see this evolve into a bigger circuit.

I know crusade has some issues but I’d like to see a yearly ITC narrative/crusade organized events… where players can have thier armies grow over the season… for instance orks can use thier crusade rules to loot a vehicle. And then the next ITC narrative event they can include that looted vehicle in thier army list. There is a lot of emphasis on the championship series but a supported narrative event with armies that grow can be so awesome if done well without as much of the hyper competitive issues. Narrative isn’t about balance as not all crusade rules are balanced and eventually characters who survive can grow.
   
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I look forward to the imminent ITC Packs "A la Infinity" completed with cardstock terrain, LE Minis, coins, patches, etc.



Something is happening on the 24th, we sent you a poster.
 
   
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Who wants to guess a requirement of all ITC events will be 100% GW models only?
   
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 Arbitrator wrote:
Who wants to guess a requirement of all ITC events will be 100% GW models only?


It will be, they've been having ITC float stuff for them for a while now (like army must be painted as-faction) this seems to be typical GW cost reduction "why do we need play testers when we can just have people do it for free?"

The interesting part will be if they get sued by the people doing work for them withotu pay like WOTC did a while back

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Confessor Of Sins





Tacoma, WA, USA

Ahh, Dakka. How did I know this thread would be filled with complaints about the ITC?

And I didn't realize that all tournament players were self-serving jerks who don't want the current broken things fixed. It's not like they won't just move on to the next broken thing they can find. I think it will be nice to have some white hats in there pointing out the problems to GW so that they can fix them.

Beyond that, it should be interesting to see if the alliance between GW and ITC can lead to a better ITC. The idea of more types of tournaments certainly sounds like an improvement.
   
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Regular Dakkanaut



Birmingham, UK

I do not trust Captain Naziknight to maintain the new event guidance.
   
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"But HMBCD! 9th Edition is the narrative focused version of 40k! Stop calling it 'Tournament Edition'. It's simply not true!"


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This is literally the beginning of the end. So sad.
   
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Bremen (Germany)

More tournament gak. Nice.


Not.

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EviscerationPlague wrote:
beast_gts wrote:
Top-performing ITC finishers will have the opportunity to participate in the all-new Balance Dataslate feedback group to help shape the future of Warhammer gaming events.

Tournament Organisers will have the chance to join a TO Advisory Group to make sure there’s a place to give feedback, learn from best practice and ask for further help and support.


While these are steps in the right direction, do causal players get a voice?

A better balanced game to begin with means your house tweeks don't kill the semblance of a somewhat fair game with whatever random scenarios you come up with.
So no, casual players really shouldn't have much vote in what happens, because said casual players were probably fine with 40 point Terminators in 6th.

Not to say GW is doing a good job of course. Only so much you can do in the IGOUGO system going on now.
I remember when pre measuring was the boogeyman. Then random charges. Now it's igougo.

Wish someone would just make the mythical AA version of 40k that works better.
   
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Dakka Veteran





Armpit of NY

Hard to see this as anything but another blow in the continuing ‘tournamentification’ of 40K. They have managed to all but crush any fluff or fun out of 40K already. This will only make it worse. GW is just as guilty, as they have been pushing this for several years now, trying to put competitive 40K on the same playing field as esports, thinking their broken, nearly unplayable game is viable as a competitive cash cow game. When it never has been…but people keep trying to put the square peg in the round hole, and the ‘fixes’ to keep the tournament crowd ‘happy’ just make 40K overall worse and worse…

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/01/29 01:58:20


 
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut





Myrtle Creek, OR

I started playing in in 99/2000. The game has been “official” this or that and tournament centered since at least that point. If it wasn’t even points and following how tourneys played, it most likely wasn’t going to be touched especially if you relied on pick up games. This is just officially making that approach official instead of the forge the narrative stuff that pick up gamers can’t believe exists outside HQ Nottingham.

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Decrepit Dakkanaut





Tampa,FL USA

Apparently, I know people that are on the new event team(if you were at any of the official GW US events in 2021 a lot of the judges are now part of the team and I've known a bunch of them since back when the Outrider program existed) for this and Narrative Events ARE included as plans according to them.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/01/29 03:24:27


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Made in us
Confessor Of Sins




This will end poorly.

Anytime GW proper tries to interact with the competitive scene in any way (rules changes, points changes, mission updates, tournament formatting, etc) they've created more problems than they've solved.

While it's yet to be seen, I would bet the ITC would have been much better off distancing itself from GW, rather than partnering.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 totalfailure wrote:
Hard to see this as anything but another blow in the continuing ‘tournamentification’ of 40K. They have managed to all but crush any fluff or fun out of 40K already. This will only make it worse. GW is just as guilty, as they have been pushing this for several years now, trying to put competitive 40K on the same playing field as esports, thinking their broken, nearly unplayable game is viable as a competitive cash cow game. When it never has been…but people keep trying to put the square peg in the round hole, and the ‘fixes’ to keep the tournament crowd ‘happy’ just make 40K overall worse and worse…


The "fixes" aren't to keep the tournament crowd happy. The 'fixes' are for casual players whining about getting their arses handed to them by competitive players when they show up to events or pickup games with an army of footslogging assault marines backed up by a tech marine and a single naked predator tank.

In general tournament players care about stability and interfactional balance. GW has given us upheaval and attempts at intRAfactional balance that make intERfactional balance worse. You think comp players wanted DG Deathshrouds to go up? You think comp players wanted Gladiators to drop a useless ten points? You think comp player cared about subfaction soup? You think THAT'S why that got changed? If you really believe that, I have a bridge to sell you.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 NinthMusketeer wrote:
EviscerationPlague wrote:
beast_gts wrote:
Top-performing ITC finishers will have the opportunity to participate in the all-new Balance Dataslate feedback group to help shape the future of Warhammer gaming events.

Tournament Organisers will have the chance to join a TO Advisory Group to make sure there’s a place to give feedback, learn from best practice and ask for further help and support.


While these are steps in the right direction, do causal players get a voice?

A better balanced game to begin with means your house tweeks don't kill the semblance of a somewhat fair game with whatever random scenarios you come up with.
So no, casual players really shouldn't have much vote in what happens, because said casual players were probably fine with 40 point Terminators in 6th.

Not to say GW is doing a good job of course. Only so much you can do in the IGOUGO system going on now.
I remember when pre measuring was the boogeyman. Then random charges. Now it's igougo.

Wish someone would just make the mythical AA version of 40k that works better.


As if AA wouldn't just result in a bunch of weird activation number abuse anyway. (Knights activate 2000pts in 4 activations. MSU guard activate 2000pts in 40 activations. Both of these things create very strange edge cases.)

This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2022/01/29 05:03:46


2500pts
2500
3000


 
   
Made in es
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain




Vigo. Spain.

I hated ITC missions in 8th as much as some people claimed they were the end and all of warhammer mission design.

9th missions are basically ITC missons and they are the most boring way of playing 40k ever. With the exception of the worst eternal war missions of old, and even those add some more variety.

But at this point I know this is a lost battle.

 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
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 Arbitrator wrote:
Who wants to guess a requirement of all ITC events will be 100% GW models only?


To be fair, Brandt has been all over Reddit repeatedly saying this will not be the case. And I'm sure he's not lying re: the current situation.

But will that still be the case a year from now? Two years from now? It's anybody's guess, not even Brandt can tell you "no" because it's a decision that will ultimately be made above his head. If the GW higher-ups get a bee in their bonnet and decide now is the time to squeeze the ITC on third-party bits, they'll do it, and there's nothing anyone will be able to do short of starting up another rival "true ITC" organization, because at this point the ITC have given the keys to GW and it's going to be very hard for them to get the keys back themselves if they don't like GW's driving.

He hasn't said anything about the other major concern, that the top players will end up reinforcing their own dominance through knowing what's going to happen before everyone else (this already happens, but the change is going to make it institutionalized) and being able to manipulate it. But I appreciate that's a more difficult issue to address in a short post. He did seem to acknowledge in one post that it's a genuine, relevant concern that they will be addressing, so hopefully we see something in print spelling this out in more detail than the war-com article.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/01/29 06:58:05


 
   
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 Kanluwen wrote:
EviscerationPlague wrote:
beast_gts wrote:
Top-performing ITC finishers will have the opportunity to participate in the all-new Balance Dataslate feedback group to help shape the future of Warhammer gaming events.

Tournament Organisers will have the chance to join a TO Advisory Group to make sure there’s a place to give feedback, learn from best practice and ask for further help and support.


While these are steps in the right direction, do causal players get a voice?

A better balanced game to begin with means your house tweeks don't kill the semblance of a somewhat fair game with whatever random scenarios you come up with.
So no, casual players really shouldn't have much vote in what happens, because said casual players were probably fine with 40 point Terminators in 6th.

Funny, because it was the "better balanced game" crew you're lauding that wouldn't shut the hell up about War Convocations in 7th whilst abusing the Skitarii+Flesh Tearer Taxi Service lists.
That wouldn't shut up about how strong Guard were while running illegal lists in 8th.

Oh, and who I know for a bloody fact are responsible for the 20 model unit size for Skitarii now....which they're now naturally crying about as being "TOO STRONG!1!!" when having to play against it.


Not to say GW is doing a good job of course. Only so much you can do in the IGOUGO system going on now.

They're doing a better job than the people who consistently okayed illegal lists. Who consistently let cheaters have "one more chance". Who couldn't bloody figure out how to play "practice games for tournaments" with Power instead of Points.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Platuan4th wrote:
 Kanluwen wrote:
 Gert wrote:
 Kanluwen wrote:
LOL. That's a delightful joke!

GW has run like 2 already at WHW. Benefits of living in the homeland I suppose. Eat it yanks!

Games Workshop has run them. That's the key bit there. GW has.


Maybe with The Narrative Guys having been part of several FLG/ITC events already, they'll get to step in as the narrative event arm of the ITC?

Nah, that's too hopeful.

Way too hopeful. Narrative events likely don't "justify the cost" for ITC garbage.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
chaos0xomega wrote:

I'm fine with competitive players playtesting and making balancing recommendations, theres good reason to do so because as you suggested they are the closest thing to a group of players that regularly engage in "standard" 40k where the variables are largely controlled and the methodology of play is consistent, etc... but they should be *retired* competitive players who cannot stand to benefit from continuing to participate in the competitive circuit.

GW would arguably be better served by establishing a parallel semi/non-independent closed playtester circuit of these top players who are then barred from competing outside of the playtest circuit (for as long as they are in it and at least like 2-3 years after they leave it) and who are not rewarded for competitive success. GW can give them a stipend/per diem and pick up tabs for airfare and lodgings for these guys to travel to these events regionally, nationally, and internationally and have all of the participants playing using the latest revision of upcoming playtest rules, to ensure all the variables are in-control and that they can get quality data and feedback out of the system without concern for a player unfairly benefiting from it.

Frankly, I think GW would be better served by outing who they're using as playtesters. No longer just that list of "The Mournival" and "The Infinity Circuit".

Specifically call them out. Name and shame, baby!

You're not serious are you? The Skitarii weapon options follows the same logic as other troops like Plague Marines and Wyches, and other random units that are newer like Blightlords and Sword Brethren.

They're keeping it to the contents of the kit. Blaming ITC is utterly hilarious to the point of delusion.
   
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 TalonZahn wrote:
I look forward to the imminent ITC Packs "A la Infinity" completed with cardstock terrain, LE Minis, coins, patches, etc.


They wish they could do what Infinity does for tournies.
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka







One thing about this partnership that will amuse me would be if GW force a "Must bring a first-party copy of all rules needed for your army" element into the ITC.

Not saying it will happen, but watching the collective meltdown by the people relying on BS alone (or that Russian site) would be both hilarious and delicious...

2021 Plog - Here we go again... - my fifth attempt at a Dakka PLOG

My [url=https://pileofpotential.com/dysartes]Pile of Potential[/url - updates ongoing...

Gamgee on Tau Players wrote:we all kill cats and sell our own families to the devil and eat live puppies.


 Kanluwen wrote:
This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.

Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army... 
   
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United States

I would think this is good. These are the people that arguably know the game better than the people who make it. They're going to find the broken things much quicker and bring attention to it. So logic dictates that they're going to actually balance the game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Arbitrator wrote:
Who wants to guess a requirement of all ITC events will be 100% GW models only?


And there is nothing wrong with that.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/29 08:35:03


 
   
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Italy

 Togusa wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Arbitrator wrote:
Who wants to guess a requirement of all ITC events will be 100% GW models only?


And there is nothing wrong with that.


I thought it was already a thing.

 
   
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 Togusa wrote:
I would think this is good. These are the people that arguably know the game better than the people who make it. They're going to find the broken things much quicker and bring attention to it. So logic dictates that they're going to actually balance the game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Arbitrator wrote:
Who wants to guess a requirement of all ITC events will be 100% GW models only?


And there is nothing wrong with that.


The counter argument is GW just told these people they will profit from winning, so those who win get to make sure they keep winning.

Also calling it now, the biggest positive will be flg mats available outside the US for reasonable prices, likely via GW.
   
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Ew. No way Jose!

Get this garbage out of my 40k please.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/29 15:28:37



Games Workshop Delenda Est.

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Dudeface wrote:
 Togusa wrote:
I would think this is good. These are the people that arguably know the game better than the people who make it. They're going to find the broken things much quicker and bring attention to it. So logic dictates that they're going to actually balance the game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Arbitrator wrote:
Who wants to guess a requirement of all ITC events will be 100% GW models only?


And there is nothing wrong with that.


The counter argument is GW just told these people they will profit from winning, so those who win get to make sure they keep winning.

Also calling it now, the biggest positive will be flg mats available outside the US for reasonable prices, likely via GW.


I'm not so sure, my guess is GW rules team will still have the final say on things.








This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2022/01/29 09:38:17


 
   
Made in gb
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Winners participating in how the game will then go? Not for me, this is the problem with a lot of elite sports where certain organisations gross too much power and can manipulate how the game will be ran.

Specifically, and this is a huge issue I used to have with ITC when they had their own balancing shenanigans... Was army bias. You are going to think favourably in terms of balance if you have a couple of thousand pounds/dollars worth of models on your shelf.

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 endlesswaltz123 wrote:
Winners participating in how the game will then go?
What are you worried about? You're not implying that there would be some kind of conflict of interest, are you?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/29 10:29:00


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"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
Made in gb
Bryan Ansell





Birmingham, UK

The ITC dudes could do an exemplary job of communicating balance changes to GW.

That still leaves GW and their copy writing moles producing published works which need day 0 patches to be playable.

And there will still be codex creep.
   
 
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