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Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Tampa,FL USA

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2022/01/28/warhammer-the-itc/

Thoughts on this later.

You know you're really doing something when you can make strangers hate you over the Internet. - Mauleed
Just remember folks. Panic. Panic all the time. It's the only way to survive, other than just being mindful, of course-but geez, that's so friggin' boring. - Aegis Grimm
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I’m not overly familiar with ITC or the tournament scene, but I guess more eyes, opinions and hands on the balance pumps isn’t an inherently bad thing.

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Pfizer vaccine administered 13:40pm 18 Feb 21. Still no second head. Second jab 13:35pm 6 May 2021. At the Masonic Hall. 
   
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Irked Necron Immortal




Sentient Void

This is basically putting a new paint job on a car with a blown engine.

Paradigm for a happy relationship with Games Workshop: Burn the books and take the models to a different game. 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Tampa,FL USA

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I’m not overly familiar with ITC or the tournament scene, but I guess more eyes, opinions and hands on the balance pumps isn’t an inherently bad thing.


9th is already heavily influenced by ITC. The Secondary system originated in ITC

You know you're really doing something when you can make strangers hate you over the Internet. - Mauleed
Just remember folks. Panic. Panic all the time. It's the only way to survive, other than just being mindful, of course-but geez, that's so friggin' boring. - Aegis Grimm
Hallowed is the All Pie
The Before Times: A Place That Celebrates The World That Was 
   
Made in gb
Moustache-twirling Princeps




United Kingdom

Top-performing ITC finishers will have the opportunity to participate in the all-new Balance Dataslate feedback group to help shape the future of Warhammer gaming events.

Tournament Organisers will have the chance to join a TO Advisory Group to make sure there’s a place to give feedback, learn from best practice and ask for further help and support.


While these are steps in the right direction, do causal players get a voice?
   
Made in us
Terrifying Doombull




 Platuan4th wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2022/01/28/warhammer-the-itc/

Thoughts on this later.


Not going to lie, my knee-jerk reaction wasn't a good one.

More considered reaction, still not great.
- it sounds like they're encouraging even minor events to go through the ITC folks
- with all the... stuff (prizes, draws, transportation, etc)... it sounds like a lot of personal player information is being passed around through multiple organizations and I'm never fond of that
- historically ITC's overall effect on the game has been poor (at least from my own POV). Now they're official? Not a fan of what comes down the road.

Top-performing ITC finishers will have the opportunity to participate in the all-new Balance Dataslate feedback group to help shape the future of Warhammer gaming events.

Woo. Crowd-sourced self interest. Always good results from that.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/28 19:14:48


Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Tampa,FL USA

beast_gts wrote:
Top-performing ITC finishers will have the opportunity to participate in the all-new Balance Dataslate feedback group to help shape the future of Warhammer gaming events.

Tournament Organisers will have the chance to join a TO Advisory Group to make sure there’s a place to give feedback, learn from best practice and ask for further help and support.


While these are steps in the right direction, do causal players get a voice?


Do we ever?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Voss wrote:
 Platuan4th wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2022/01/28/warhammer-the-itc/

Thoughts on this later.


Not going to lie, my knee-jerk reaction wasn't a good one.

.


Same

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/28 19:14:04


 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut






Top-performing ITC finishers will have the opportunity to participate in the all-new Balance Dataslate feedback group to help shape the future of Warhammer gaming events.

Balance your own damn game GW.
   
Made in gb
Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon






beast_gts wrote:
Top-performing ITC finishers will have the opportunity to participate in the all-new Balance Dataslate feedback group to help shape the future of Warhammer gaming events.

Tournament Organisers will have the chance to join a TO Advisory Group to make sure there’s a place to give feedback, learn from best practice and ask for further help and support.


While these are steps in the right direction, do causal players get a voice?


As a filthy casual? Do we really need one?

Casual comes with house rules and tweaks and that, with only those part of that particular circle needing to agree?
   
Made in us
Stabbin' Skarboy





So what I’m hearing is that whatever faction is winning the most tournaments will get the most seats on the council tm, and will probably preserve that power. Prepare for 12 more years of drukhari .

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 Lord Damocles wrote:
Top-performing ITC finishers will have the opportunity to participate in the all-new Balance Dataslate feedback group to help shape the future of Warhammer gaming events.

Balance your own damn game GW.


Maybe they got fed up for being told how much of a bad job they're doing so finally said "do it yourselves if you're so good"?
   
Made in fr
Regular Dakkanaut




"Let's have people who are masters at discerning synergies rule writers never thought about, help write even more complex rules that they'll be able to abuse after each new dataslate".

This partnership is probably just for show, but i'm concerned even 10% of the ITC crowd suggestions might end up as actual rules.
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut





I'm not typically an "Event" guy.

And I think that caution is valid.

Having said that: I was intrigued by the idea that there might be more TYPES of events. I'd participate in a narrative story weekender with small Crusade armies.

And if this partnership can help create LOCAL small events, that would be cool. I'm Canadian, and I don't live in the GTA, Vancouver or Montreal, so events have been largely irrelevant. But my city has a GW, a really strong FLGS with a great GW selection and player base, and a licensed play space.

It's all the infrastructure GW + ITC would need to Create a schedule of events.

But again, I think the caution is merited- the last thing we need is organized events further skewing the game so that it is not fun for home use- which, in the end, is ALWAYS going to be my preferred venue, even if I do dip my toes into this "community" and develop an appreciation for it.

I'd go to big event if they paid my travel and accommodations. Not sure I'm skilled enough to win it, or even if that would be possible at the types of events I'd be most likely to frequent.

But one can daydream.
   
Made in us
Terrifying Doombull




Dudeface wrote:
 Lord Damocles wrote:
Top-performing ITC finishers will have the opportunity to participate in the all-new Balance Dataslate feedback group to help shape the future of Warhammer gaming events.

Balance your own damn game GW.


Maybe they got fed up for being told how much of a bad job they're doing so finally said "do it yourselves if you're so good"?

But only if you publicly prove you can and will exploit them first?

Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
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Member of the Ethereal Council






Great, for awhile ITC has been the defacto way to play 40k
More tournaments and competitive stress play makes the game better for everyone

5000pts 6000pts 3000pts
 
   
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Gathering the Informations.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
beast_gts wrote:
Top-performing ITC finishers will have the opportunity to participate in the all-new Balance Dataslate feedback group to help shape the future of Warhammer gaming events.

Tournament Organisers will have the chance to join a TO Advisory Group to make sure there’s a place to give feedback, learn from best practice and ask for further help and support.


While these are steps in the right direction, do causal players get a voice?


As a filthy casual? Do we really need one?

Yes.

Casual comes with house rules and tweaks and that, with only those part of that particular circle needing to agree?

Because this is why. House rules, tweaks, etc all are building off of the foundations of the games.

And frankly? ITC has shown itself time and time and time again to be a garbage organization and joke over the years.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
PenitentJake wrote:
I'm not typically an "Event" guy.

And I think that caution is valid.

Having said that: I was intrigued by the idea that there might be more TYPES of events. I'd participate in a narrative story weekender with small Crusade armies.

LOL. That's a delightful joke!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/28 20:25:52


 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut





Bleh, not happy at all that ITC winners will have a say in the balance sheet. Tournament types do not WANT their broken combos to change!
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Master with Gauntlets of Macragge





Upstate, New York

Little worried about the foxes being in charge of the hen house.

Hopefully those who help with the rules can do so without bias, and look to close the sort of loopholes used in some broken builds.

Not holding my breath.

   
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Member of the Ethereal Council






 Kanluwen wrote:
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
beast_gts wrote:
Top-performing ITC finishers will have the opportunity to participate in the all-new Balance Dataslate feedback group to help shape the future of Warhammer gaming events.

Tournament Organisers will have the chance to join a TO Advisory Group to make sure there’s a place to give feedback, learn from best practice and ask for further help and support.


While these are steps in the right direction, do causal players get a voice?


As a filthy casual? Do we really need one?

Yes.

Casual comes with house rules and tweaks and that, with only those part of that particular circle needing to agree?

Because this is why. House rules, tweaks, etc all are building off of the foundations of the games.

And frankly? ITC has shown itself time and time and time again to be a garbage organization and joke over the years.


How?
They grew from a tiny circuit to the official way GW plays and have influence several of the last couple editions, with their top players having say in how the game is balanced.
How is it a joke?
   
Made in us
Painlord Titan Princeps of Slaanesh




Since everything is being organized/centralized maybe they'll require the "council members" to have either played and won with X armies (where X is greater than 2) or require that they change armies for the next year to be eligible to be on the council that next year. That way at least there will be some self interest in seeing other armies prosper.

Yeah, and maybe the Sun will rise from the west tomorrow.
   
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 Kanluwen wrote:
LOL. That's a delightful joke!

GW has run like 2 already at WHW. Benefits of living in the homeland I suppose. Eat it yanks!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/28 20:52:36


 
   
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Gathering the Informations.

 Gert wrote:
 Kanluwen wrote:
LOL. That's a delightful joke!

GW has run like 2 already at WHW. Benefits of living in the homeland I suppose. Eat it yanks!

Games Workshop has run them. That's the key bit there. GW has.
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba




New Jersey, State of Perfection

What does "digital rule entitlement" mean?

Some thoughts:

-Theres a clear conflict of interest in having people who stand to materially gain and benefit from winning competitions being the ones who playtest and attempt to balance the game. Not just in terms of the obvious "I want to put my finger on the scales to benefit my own faction and increase my chances of continuing to win", but the more sinister and less obvious results of "I've had 6 months longer playing this faction with the updated rules than most people on the competitive circuit, this gives me a huge advantage in terms of experience and knowing what the most effective strategies and list builds are".

-The ITC has issues in terms of how it scores, ranks, and measures success. The top players in the ITC are not the players with the best track record of success, they are the players who entered into and played in the most events. Only the scores from each players top x many events (broken down into several categories based on event size) are counted. This means that a player who entered 20 events, won every game with maximum points, etc. could be ranked identically to a person who entered 1000 events and lost more than half of them, provided that of the 500 events that player did manage to win there were 20 in which they to also managed to win every game with maximum points. Clearly one of these two players is superior to the other in terms of skill and ability in terms of something like scoring percentage or whatever advanced stat you would use to measure a "per capita" type rating, yet the scoring system doesn't account for this. Defenders of the system argue that it encourages players to continue playing as often as they would like instead of discouraging them from attending an event which may harm their score if they get a lower score placement than they did in their previous game. My counter is that while it encourages players to keep on playing, in the process it disadvantages those players who cannot dedicate as much time to attending events, as those players with more schedule and travel flexibility can more easily attend another event to compensate for a poor showing at a previous event, whereas those who can't dedicate as much time and money to the hobby might be locked into a lower placement as a result of not being able to make it to an event to cover up their score. The top 2 players in the rankings currently are good examples of individuals who benefited from this scoring system - the number 1 player (Mani Cheema) played in 17 events, most of them scored him between 168.29 and 265.99 points... but one of them only netted him 76.66 points (which was half as many points as the guy who placed first at that event), giving him an avg. score of 200.617 - this event doesn't count against him because he played in enough others to supercede it. Likewise, John Lennon has played in 18 events, most of which netted him between 132.99 and 255.99 points, but one only netted him 64.45 (about a third of what first place got) and landed him #20 out of 28, giving him an average score of 192.21. These players are ranked higher than #4s Sean Nayden, who has played 17 events that netted him between 156.65 pts and 245.8 pts, giving him an average score of 202.14. Seans lowest score was basically more than double the lowest scores of the other two, and his average score was in fact higher than either, but because he didn't have some higher placements in individual events nor for whatever reason didnt attend additional events to try to "level up" his score, he suffered a drop to 4th place.

-The ITC also notoriously easy to abuse and filled with all sorts of conflicts of interests in terms of event organizers and judges often playing in the events that they organize (sometimes very overtly, sometimes covertly/surreptitiously by having a friend organize the event at their behest), as well as organizers and judges often being affiliated in various ways with teams of players who will enter into and play in their events. Even when nothing obviously illicit is going on (i.e. event is being judged fairly, pairings being determined randomly/appropriately, organizers didn't share info on participant registrations or scenario packets, etc. with certain players early, etc.), many of these events are organized for the benefit of certain players, i.e. a last minute not widely advertised event that doesn't draw more competitive players in from other areas to give certain players a better chance of winning (assuming their opponents don't just concede or throw the game as was the case in one high profile incident a year or two ago), or simply to organize events as often as possible to ensure that local players have a constant flow of points coming their way so that they can get higher placement in the ITC rankings vs other players who might not play as often.

-Overall, I feel the ITC has had a negative impact on the game and the community and has formented the growth of a larger and even more aggressive competitive meta by connecting individuals in a way that previously independently organized and run tournaments did not. I weep for Europe and other regions if they are going to have this aggressive American style structure and format rolled out to their territories. Privateer Press and Warmachine cratered for focusing too heavily on the competitive community, and it looks like GW and the ITC is quickly moving that same direction.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/28 21:00:24


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Ma55ter_fett wrote:It reads like the ramblings of a Nigerian lobotomized Shakespeare typed into a cellphone with a very aggressive autocomplete function.
 
   
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Gathering the Informations.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:

How?
They grew from a tiny circuit to the official way GW plays and have influence several of the last couple editions, with their top players having say in how the game is balanced.
How is it a joke?

How often do we hear about these ridiculous ITC "events" that are nothing but small groups of the same people continually padding their scores? Or the "accused" cheaters who continually are involved?

   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




beast_gts wrote:
Top-performing ITC finishers will have the opportunity to participate in the all-new Balance Dataslate feedback group to help shape the future of Warhammer gaming events.

Tournament Organisers will have the chance to join a TO Advisory Group to make sure there’s a place to give feedback, learn from best practice and ask for further help and support.


While these are steps in the right direction, do causal players get a voice?

A better balanced game to begin with means your house tweeks don't kill the semblance of a somewhat fair game with whatever random scenarios you come up with.
So no, casual players really shouldn't have much vote in what happens, because said casual players were probably fine with 40 point Terminators in 6th.

Not to say GW is doing a good job of course. Only so much you can do in the IGOUGO system going on now.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Tampa,FL USA

 Kanluwen wrote:
 Gert wrote:
 Kanluwen wrote:
LOL. That's a delightful joke!

GW has run like 2 already at WHW. Benefits of living in the homeland I suppose. Eat it yanks!

Games Workshop has run them. That's the key bit there. GW has.


Maybe with The Narrative Guys having been part of several FLG/ITC events already, they'll get to step in as the narrative event arm of the ITC?

Nah, that's too hopeful.
   
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Mississippi

Like with the Youtube animations, best way to destroy something is from the inside.

I've never been involved with 40K tournaments, but I expect this partnership will be very short-lived, I doubt it'll last through an edition change, actually.

It never ends well 
   
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Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba




New Jersey, State of Perfection

EviscerationPlague wrote:
beast_gts wrote:
Top-performing ITC finishers will have the opportunity to participate in the all-new Balance Dataslate feedback group to help shape the future of Warhammer gaming events.

Tournament Organisers will have the chance to join a TO Advisory Group to make sure there’s a place to give feedback, learn from best practice and ask for further help and support.


While these are steps in the right direction, do causal players get a voice?

A better balanced game to begin with means your house tweeks don't kill the semblance of a somewhat fair game with whatever random scenarios you come up with.
So no, casual players really shouldn't have much vote in what happens, because said casual players were probably fine with 40 point Terminators in 6th.

Not to say GW is doing a good job of course. Only so much you can do in the IGOUGO system going on now.


I'm fine with competitive players playtesting and making balancing recommendations, theres good reason to do so because as you suggested they are the closest thing to a group of players that regularly engage in "standard" 40k where the variables are largely controlled and the methodology of play is consistent, etc... but they should be *retired* competitive players who cannot stand to benefit from continuing to participate in the competitive circuit.

GW would arguably be better served by establishing a parallel semi/non-independent closed playtester circuit of these top players who are then barred from competing outside of the playtest circuit (for as long as they are in it and at least like 2-3 years after they leave it) and who are not rewarded for competitive success. GW can give them a stipend/per diem and pick up tabs for airfare and lodgings for these guys to travel to these events regionally, nationally, and internationally and have all of the participants playing using the latest revision of upcoming playtest rules, to ensure all the variables are in-control and that they can get quality data and feedback out of the system without concern for a player unfairly benefiting from it.
   
Made in us
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Gathering the Informations.

EviscerationPlague wrote:
beast_gts wrote:
Top-performing ITC finishers will have the opportunity to participate in the all-new Balance Dataslate feedback group to help shape the future of Warhammer gaming events.

Tournament Organisers will have the chance to join a TO Advisory Group to make sure there’s a place to give feedback, learn from best practice and ask for further help and support.


While these are steps in the right direction, do causal players get a voice?

A better balanced game to begin with means your house tweeks don't kill the semblance of a somewhat fair game with whatever random scenarios you come up with.
So no, casual players really shouldn't have much vote in what happens, because said casual players were probably fine with 40 point Terminators in 6th.

Funny, because it was the "better balanced game" crew you're lauding that wouldn't shut the hell up about War Convocations in 7th whilst abusing the Skitarii+Flesh Tearer Taxi Service lists.
That wouldn't shut up about how strong Guard were while running illegal lists in 8th.

Oh, and who I know for a bloody fact are responsible for the 20 model unit size for Skitarii now....which they're now naturally crying about as being "TOO STRONG!1!!" when having to play against it.


Not to say GW is doing a good job of course. Only so much you can do in the IGOUGO system going on now.

They're doing a better job than the people who consistently okayed illegal lists. Who consistently let cheaters have "one more chance". Who couldn't bloody figure out how to play "practice games for tournaments" with Power instead of Points.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Platuan4th wrote:
 Kanluwen wrote:
 Gert wrote:
 Kanluwen wrote:
LOL. That's a delightful joke!

GW has run like 2 already at WHW. Benefits of living in the homeland I suppose. Eat it yanks!

Games Workshop has run them. That's the key bit there. GW has.


Maybe with The Narrative Guys having been part of several FLG/ITC events already, they'll get to step in as the narrative event arm of the ITC?

Nah, that's too hopeful.

Way too hopeful. Narrative events likely don't "justify the cost" for ITC garbage.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
chaos0xomega wrote:

I'm fine with competitive players playtesting and making balancing recommendations, theres good reason to do so because as you suggested they are the closest thing to a group of players that regularly engage in "standard" 40k where the variables are largely controlled and the methodology of play is consistent, etc... but they should be *retired* competitive players who cannot stand to benefit from continuing to participate in the competitive circuit.

GW would arguably be better served by establishing a parallel semi/non-independent closed playtester circuit of these top players who are then barred from competing outside of the playtest circuit (for as long as they are in it and at least like 2-3 years after they leave it) and who are not rewarded for competitive success. GW can give them a stipend/per diem and pick up tabs for airfare and lodgings for these guys to travel to these events regionally, nationally, and internationally and have all of the participants playing using the latest revision of upcoming playtest rules, to ensure all the variables are in-control and that they can get quality data and feedback out of the system without concern for a player unfairly benefiting from it.

Frankly, I think GW would be better served by outing who they're using as playtesters. No longer just that list of "The Mournival" and "The Infinity Circuit".

Specifically call them out. Name and shame, baby!

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2022/01/28 21:35:59


 
   
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Ew.

   
 
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