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 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I’ve just put Civil Waron again, because it’s been a while since I’ve seen it. To add to her trauma? It was her attempt to stop Crossbones killing Cap and who knows how many innocents that was the last straw?

Go and watch that scene again. Compare the scenes of devastation shown during the Accord Briefing, contrast and compare them all to that building being partially blown up. That? That was the step too far? I mean it still killed people, but it’s categorically not on her. Yet….that was the straw that broke the camel’s back? How do you think that would make you feel? What would that do to an already pretty damaged young woman?

Cap can send colossal Helicarriers crashing from the sky. Tony can invert a flying land mass’ engines. The Avengers can wreck a significant part of New York (albeit all three, just like Lagos, being the lesser of evils had they not intervened). But Wanda tried to stop a lunatic blowing up a market and that’s the crossing of the line?


That very thing is why I never finished Civil War. That whole concept, that superheros in general, and Wanda in particular, is to blame for people dying because she only managed to save some of the people who were threatened by the bomb is INCREDIBLY STUPID.

It's like blaming cops for stopping a mass shooter only after he'd expended half his ammo and killed half his intended victims, and then deciding the solution is to put all cops, everywhere, in prison for that perceived failure. Nope, this may be a superhero movie, but THAT breaks my immersion, No can do.

And that the fallout from that is becoming increasingly important as the MCU goes forward is probably why I'm increasingly disengaged with it.

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Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

But that's not why they're blaming her. The fear is more to do with 'these people have no oversight, and can seemingly go wherever they want to do whatever they want'.

Wanda messing up the save from Rumlow exploding was just the catalyst for that, not the only reason.

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Italy

 Grimskul wrote:


It's hard to be sympathetic towards Wanda when she held an entire town hostage and effectively tortured them with basically no consequences (no, losing "not-Vision" and "fake kids really doesn't count because that'd be like saying acknowledging that your imaginary friends aren't real counts as a sacrifice) because Rambeau gave her a free pass.


And what about Tony Stark creating Ultron, causing havoc and countless deaths? His motivations were also objectively wrong, assuming a democracy is the correct way of living. He also got away with no consequences, actually he kepts his "hero" status and was never portrayed as a villain, even despite the clash between the other superheroes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Wanda was never a victim.


She was a kid during a war that left ther orphan. That makes her a victim.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/05/16 06:44:28


 
   
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Couple of tidbits from Civil War. They’re single lines, so easily missed/forgotten.

Vision says Wanda’s powers affect the amygdala, with the result being people inherently fear her, whether she’s actively using them or not.

When the Accords are revealed, Wanda says “so they’re coming for me”. Vision is the only Avenger who says “we won’t let that happen”.

Tony, albeit in private refers to her as a weapon of mass destruction.

It’s all kind of been there. I do agree they could’ve done a bit more latterly to highlight it. But it is all there.

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 Vulcan wrote:
It's like blaming cops for stopping a mass shooter only after he'd expended half his ammo and killed half his intended victims, and then deciding the solution is to put all cops, everywhere, in prison for that perceived failure. Nope, this may be a superhero movie, but THAT breaks my immersion, No can do.

the difference here is that cops (and soldiers) have an institution behind them that checks if they have done their best and/or did the right thing at the right time

we just don't see this very often but each time something happened, cops see a trial to check if they did something wrong
like if the trial comes to the conclusion that the cops could have done something earlier to prevent it but did not do it without a good reason, it will have consequences

and civil war is all about that there is no global institution above super heroes, so no one that checks if they did something wrong

Harry, bring this ring to Narnia or the Sith will take the Enterprise

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 Blackie wrote:


And what about Tony Stark creating Ultron, causing havoc and countless deaths? His motivations were also objectively wrong, assuming a democracy is the correct way of living. He also got away with no consequences, actually he kepts his "hero" status and was never portrayed as a villain, even despite the clash between the other superheroes.


That's really not the same thing. Tony didn't have the intent of creating a genocidal AI. He doesn't even think he's anywhere near bringing the Ultron idea to fruition when it happens, and when Ultron is born Tony wastes no time trying to stop him and make it right.

By contrast, it's very difficult to seriously argue Wanda didn't have the intent to use the residents of Westview as meat puppets because the first time she talks to the SWORD agents, it's clear she knows what she's doing and she tells them to go away. For this to have been the same thing as Ultron, Wanda would have had to be surprised to learn what she did (she clearly wasn't), and she would have had to immediately started working toward undoing the damage she's inflicting on the people of Westview (which, again, she doesn't).

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/05/16 10:46:59


 
   
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Italy

Wanda clearly says that she believed her reality was a good thing for the residents of Westview in Wandavisions, or maybe she wanted to believe that her illusion and the "perfect" world she created made them happier. Only in the end she realized she was actually hurting them. She's also someone who lived outside western societies and as a clandestine, criminal or even a weapon for most of ther life.

Tony Stark instead is someone that is purposefully willing to cancel people's freedom in the name of "safety", which is a radicated and debated concept in western cultures. It's a pillar of far right parties actually, and one of the most realistic examples of modern evil. He also had the biggest ego in the world and lived a privileged life. And of course thanks to his status he never faced any consequence from creating that genocidal AI, not even a moral reprimand; in fact he was even backed by the government. That's why I found really hard to sympatize with him, and why he should have definitely be considered a villain. I do consider him a great villain actually.

Make no mistake, Wanda is clearly a villain. But a villain that deserves some sympathy, I think of her like the MCU Darth Vader. She's definitely not an evil person, just a fragile, marked by events and disturbed one who at some point was even corrupted by ultra powerful evil magic. Like at least another version of Strange for example.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/05/16 11:06:33


 
   
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Yup. I think a significant factor in the ending of Multiverse is that Dr Strange learns his alternative self was corrupted by the Darkhold. And whilst himself a raging egomaniac with a few issues, he’s more Together than Wanda ever was.

Please note I’m not saying Wanda should’ve gotten off Scot free. At all. But realistically, there’s no-one except Wanda that could restrain her. So…what could anyone do?

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While we’re arguing Tony’s evil vs Wanda’s suffering, don’t forget Tony had been suffering from some pretty severe PTSD since the first Avengers that pretty much everyone around him just ignores.

 
   
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True. But again, Wanda’s life has always been one of exploitation and trauma.

I’m never one to misery measure, as whatever the worst thing to happen in your life remains the worst thing to happen in your life, no matter that someone else has been through objectively or subjectively worse.

Civil War really does paint a load of stuff about Wanda I think people have missed in this conversation. Defo give it another watch

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 Blackie wrote:
She was a kid during a war that left ther orphan. That makes her a victim.
I think it's pretty clear the context we're covering here.

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"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
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 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 Blackie wrote:
She was a kid during a war that left ther orphan. That makes her a victim.
I think it's pretty clear the context we're covering here.


But she never really progressed beyond that. Whilst we’re exactly sure how long it was between losing her parents and being experimented upon (WandaVision suggests a span of years), but even in Civil War, Cap rebukes Tony’s claim she’s a WMD with “she’s just a kid”.

Now both could be in the wrong there. Tony for just seeing her as a threat, and Cap kind of infantalising her, suggesting that he’s perhaps unable to see she is in fact an adult, and a damaged one at that. Certainly I think we can make some kind of argument that had Cap and Tony been less set in their ways, Wanda might’ve been left entirely out of Civil War, rather than (once again) being made a pawn.

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 creeping-deth87 wrote:


Agreed with OP on bringing back characters just to kill them off. Xavier's inclusion is so pointless it beggars belief. I'm shocked Patrick Stewart even agreed to reprise the role after he gave such an incredible farewell to the character in Logan. I really hope they stop doing that.


Uh...I can see you haven't seen the absolute dumpster fire kick in the teeth Star Trek Picard botched alleyway abortion....

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/05/16 19:43:51


 
   
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 Togusa wrote:
 creeping-deth87 wrote:


Agreed with OP on bringing back characters just to kill them off. Xavier's inclusion is so pointless it beggars belief. I'm shocked Patrick Stewart even agreed to reprise the role after he gave such an incredible farewell to the character in Logan. I really hope they stop doing that.


Uh...I can see you haven't seen the absolute dumpster fire kick in the teeth Star Trek Picard botched alleyway abortion....


I have not! I've actually steered clear of nu Trek after watching the first episode of discovery ages ago.
   
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 creeping-deth87 wrote:
 Togusa wrote:
 creeping-deth87 wrote:


Agreed with OP on bringing back characters just to kill them off. Xavier's inclusion is so pointless it beggars belief. I'm shocked Patrick Stewart even agreed to reprise the role after he gave such an incredible farewell to the character in Logan. I really hope they stop doing that.


Uh...I can see you haven't seen the absolute dumpster fire kick in the teeth Star Trek Picard botched alleyway abortion....


I have not! I've actually steered clear of nu Trek after watching the first episode of discovery ages ago.


Not to drag this too far off track, but you should really check out Lower Decks. Yes, it’s an animated comedy, but clearly by people who love Star Trek.

 
   
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United States

 creeping-deth87 wrote:
 Togusa wrote:
 creeping-deth87 wrote:


Agreed with OP on bringing back characters just to kill them off. Xavier's inclusion is so pointless it beggars belief. I'm shocked Patrick Stewart even agreed to reprise the role after he gave such an incredible farewell to the character in Logan. I really hope they stop doing that.


Uh...I can see you haven't seen the absolute dumpster fire kick in the teeth Star Trek Picard botched alleyway abortion....


I have not! I've actually steered clear of nu Trek after watching the first episode of discovery ages ago.


I envy you. Truly.
   
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Recent interview with one of the screenjwriters goes a bit into the logistics of the film such as covid rearanging the schedule (MoM was supposed to be out before No Way Home) and that Wanda wasn't the original villain, which may explain a few things.

Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
 
   
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Finally got to see it. Quick review, then I'll reply with some thoughts on the conversation:

Okay, so lets get the bad out of the way first. Elizabeth Olsen doesn't work as the villain when she's talking. Her three big conversation points (villain reveal leading up to attacking Kamar Taj, chatting with Wong to find Exogol, and the end) don't really work. Her dialog is flimsy and she doesn't sell the heel turn well. It's easily the weakest part of the film.

That said, I loved it. There's so much silly camp. The possession setup was such a classic bit of Evil Dead and really worked with the surreal style of Dr. Strange. Wanda as a force of supernatural horror was great. As soon as Black Bolt walked up I whispered to myself "I have no mouth and I must scream" and seeing exactly that was so fun and it was all so dumb and campy and silly. Her stalking them through the tunnel was visceral and uncanny and the wraith form that kills Xavier looked fantastic. The music battle was so charming and I adored the full Deadite ending. Letting Rami loose to indulge in the MCU was just endlessly fun for me.

Basically, if someone is dreamwalking, this film is fantastic. If no one is dreamwalking.... not the strongest.

Also, this is probably the first movie where it feels like we're building towards something, but I want to reply to a couple things in the thread before I get to that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Grimskul wrote:
Also, why send monsters after Chavez versus just approaching her?


Her only means of approaching Chavez outside of summoning monsters to capture her is to dreamwalk, which she seems hesitant to do. Her weakness throughout the film is the blind spot she has for her other selves wellbeing. She has no argument for what to do about them and dreamwalking requires her to confront that hole in the delusion she's running on. We don't get the impression she dreamwalks to indulge in her family, though the first time she does it, she notably loses herself in the moment and doesn't actually accomplish anything before the Darkholm is destroyed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Blackie wrote:

Although Wanda is a character I deeply loved, and definitely one of my favorite ones within the MCU, I really hope her death is final though. Her progression was epic, and I wouldn't like marvel to try to redeem her somehow. Nor I'd like to see her returning as a villain, I feel like her story arc is perfect as it is.


It's probably not impossible to redeem her, but it would be pretty difficult. She kills a LOT of people in this film and while that kind of stuff gets swept under the rug all the time, particularly the tendency for alt universe characters to "not count" as do unfortunately nameless henchwizards.... IDK, she takes things pretty far.

That's not to say its impossible, but the context will be interesting. They could do the cheap incursion method and have it be 838 Wanda, but that doesn't quite seem to be THE Scarlet Witch and there's still supposed to be a prophecy of her ruling or destroying reality... probably time to start talking about all the things I think we're seeing built here....

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2022/05/18 14:58:55


 
   
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 Blackie wrote:


And it's actually the contact with the "Necronomicon" that turned her into a monster,


She clearly forgot the words.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Grimskul wrote:
The main selling points of the movie are the visuals, and even then there's a lot of missed opportunities. The whole fight at Kamar-Taj was underwhelming with how you have an ARMY of sorcerers and both the former and current Sorcerer Supremes who can nothing against her apparently. It's also baffling to me that the way they try and deal with her is by shooting magic arrows and super slow to reload cannons. I honestly feel like they'd be better off with guns given that they could have opened a bunch of portals that poured lava or other stuff on her that would have been way more effective.


Remember in the MCU the ultimate attack is the punch, there is no internal logic for any other weapon.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 kodos wrote:

and civil war is all about that there is no global institution above super heroes, so no one that checks if they did something wrong


They need a group of lads to keep an eye on them.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/05/18 15:08:19


 
   
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 Lance845 wrote:
Phase 4 is like phase 1. These movies are not full of connections. Iron Man 1 was just an Iron Man movie. Dr Stange 2 is just a Dr Strange movie. It's introducing characters to be pulled into bigger over all plots later. America Chavez is here now for the obvious list of Champions they are putting into this.

You will definitely feel disappointed looking for the bigger over all story at his point since they are not telling that bigger over all story yet.


Alright, so here's as good a spot as any to start talking about the future. While its hard to say for sure where they're going with this, I think the natural direction from here is to follow the Infinity Saga with a Multiverse Saga and the natural endpoint for such a thing would be Secret Wars, which this movie lays a ton of groundwork for. The obvious connection is name dropping "incursions" at every opportunity possible, but there's a good chunk more.

So, to start with, I think Kang's a red herring. Not that he won't be important, but he's not the big bad or at least I hope not. Kang feels to me more like an Ultron. He's an Avengers worthy threat for sure, but one that serve to pull the team into the multiverse conflict more than the one who resolves it. I hope, beyond hope, that when the chips are down and the multiverse is collapsing, it'll still be Doom pulling the strings, giving us a real chance at the character in his full grandeur rather than the meager attempts we've seen from Fox.

Now, we've got the Incursions element in play, but there's other bits of this film I can see worked into the story. For one, we've got America, who feels set up for the Young Avengers team, but could be more. Perhaps a kindly robed Rabum Alal offers to help her find her parents as a way of triggering Incursions and controlling the collapse of the multiverse? We've also got Wanda who didn't really complete this prophesy in any meaningful way. Perhaps she returns in a blend of her House of M role, serving as the power that allows Doom to shape his Battleworld, effectively ruling the universe and ultimately, being the one to destroy it and set things right again?

Now, I think that's a long ways off, but it feels like the groundwork this movie is laying. We'll just have to see what's in store.

   
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As I mentioned earlier in this thread, I’m definitely torn on whether nobody really knowing where this is leading to being a good thing (Thanos was telegraphed early on, and that worked beautifully, but is now Been There Done That) or a Bad Thing (give us something, lest internet theories go too far and create butthurt weirdos angry solely that they didn’t guess right, which is of course a carefully crafted and highly personal insult at them)

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Surprise, its Kang?
Is this really not being telegraphed? I feel like I'm being beaten around the head and shoulders with alternate timelines and multiversal conflicts.

Which is a shame, because there isn't any way to have stakes of any kind in that setup: Well, Bob's dead.. oh, here's another Bob. I guess its fine. Just send the replacement Gamora to fetch another Black Widow.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2022/05/18 16:55:52


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 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
As I mentioned earlier in this thread, I’m definitely torn on whether nobody really knowing where this is leading to being a good thing (Thanos was telegraphed early on, and that worked beautifully, but is now Been There Done That) or a Bad Thing (give us something, lest internet theories go too far and create butthurt weirdos angry solely that they didn’t guess right, which is of course a carefully crafted and highly personal insult at them)


Thanos wasn't telegraphed until the end of Phase 1. We went a couple years with a nebulous concept of "the Avengers" being the closest thing to an end goal. It wasn't until after that that we got anything Infinity related. Even the stuff that came in Phase 1 is just fairly sloppy retcons.

Part of the problem is just that Phase 4 got delayed and stretched beyond its initial plans and a lot of stuff has shuffled around. I don't think we'll have anything really locked down until it ends with some kind of Avengers tentpole film to mark it.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Voss wrote:
Surprise, its Kang?
Is this really not being telegraphed? I feel like I'm being beaten around the head and shoulders with alternate timelines and multiversal conflicts.

Which is a shame, because there isn't any way to have stakes of any kind in that setup: Well, Bob's dead.. oh, here's another Bob. I guess its fine. Just send the replacement Gamora to fetch another Black Widow.


There's arguably more multiverse stuff so far then there ever was Infinity stuff in the Infinity Saga. I think of the 23 films, only 9 can generously claim to be about the stones in any way, and I'm more apt to just call it 4 (Ultron, Guardians1, War/Endgame).

I do think for the most part they've done a good job of highlighting that alt versions are not in any way the same person and should minimize the lack of stakes. It's pretty clear that no matter how many Strange's die in this film that losing our Strange wouldn't just result in replacing him with one wearing glasses. To that end Gamora seems to be more the exception than the rule.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/05/18 17:43:56


 
   
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Not sure I followed that. There hasn't been a rule, since there weren't any dead (major) characters until IW/EG.

But since there are now, lets see what the pattern is:

Tony-> actually dead, because actor wants out

Natasha->actually dead, older woman replaced with younger blonde. Hollywood, eh?

(*well, dead until either decides otherwise and the beancounters decide there's money in their return. Leaning more towards the beancounters for ScarJo, because Hollywood (and audiences...))

Vision->replacement Vision, and painfully, explicitly rendered a Ship of Theseus metaphor

Loki->replacement Loki. Accepted the 'true' timeline as his own, despite never experiencing it. Functionally the same person, with the same personality, foibles and history.

Gamora->Gamora. We haven't seen her in action yet, but I'd wager that 'angry sexual tension' was deemed to sell more tickets and she'll functionally be GotG1 Gamora.

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Fair. I'd honestly kind of blanked on Loki, which is a big oversight on my part. The only other one I suppose is Vision, and well, he's a robot, I'm not surprised if he returns in any form.
   
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Rogers seems to be dead as well.

 
   
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 LunarSol wrote:
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
As I mentioned earlier in this thread, I’m definitely torn on whether nobody really knowing where this is leading to being a good thing (Thanos was telegraphed early on, and that worked beautifully, but is now Been There Done That) or a Bad Thing (give us something, lest internet theories go too far and create butthurt weirdos angry solely that they didn’t guess right, which is of course a carefully crafted and highly personal insult at them)


Thanos wasn't telegraphed until the end of Phase 1. We went a couple years with a nebulous concept of "the Avengers" being the closest thing to an end goal. It wasn't until after that that we got anything Infinity related. Even the stuff that came in Phase 1 is just fairly sloppy retcons.

Part of the problem is just that Phase 4 got delayed and stretched beyond its initial plans and a lot of stuff has shuffled around. I don't think we'll have anything really locked down until it ends with some kind of Avengers tentpole film to mark it.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Voss wrote:
Surprise, its Kang?
Is this really not being telegraphed? I feel like I'm being beaten around the head and shoulders with alternate timelines and multiversal conflicts.

Which is a shame, because there isn't any way to have stakes of any kind in that setup: Well, Bob's dead.. oh, here's another Bob. I guess its fine. Just send the replacement Gamora to fetch another Black Widow.


There's arguably more multiverse stuff so far then there ever was Infinity stuff in the Infinity Saga. I think of the 23 films, only 9 can generously claim to be about the stones in any way, and I'm more apt to just call it 4 (Ultron, Guardians1, War/Endgame).

I do think for the most part they've done a good job of highlighting that alt versions are not in any way the same person and should minimize the lack of stakes. It's pretty clear that no matter how many Strange's die in this film that losing our Strange wouldn't just result in replacing him with one wearing glasses. To that end Gamora seems to be more the exception than the rule.


You forgot Thor 2 which dealt entirely with the Reality Stone.
And the Avengers, which had the Tessaract/Cosmic Cube/Space Stone, and Thanos at the end.
Infinity War was telegraphed as soon as the Cosmic Cube entered the picture in Captain America 1.
Well, at least the eventual appearance of Thanos.
Indeed there was some meandering in getting to Infinity War, but the seeds were there.
I think the problem is that after the universe is saved, what do the heroes do next? There really aren’t stakes much bigger than that. Which is why we have this Multiverse stuff now.
So where does that lead? Kang? Beyonder? Dr. Doom? None of this is clear nor evident, which makes it feel even more meandering and uncertain of the overall direction that the first 3 phases built up.

And once the stakes are raised to a multiverse ending threat, where does the franchise go from there?
The problem I find with the MCU currently is that they’ve painted themselves into a corner already by having a universe ending threat as the first really big bad. And not every super hero struggle has to involve saving the world/universe/multiverse.
   
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As far as big threats/events. Some from the comics we have left could be:

Galactus
Doctor Doom
Kree/Skrull war
Avengers vs X-Men
Secret Invasion
   
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 Ghool wrote:

You forgot Thor 2 which dealt entirely with the Reality Stone.
And the Avengers, which had the Tessaract/Cosmic Cube/Space Stone, and Thanos at the end.
Infinity War was telegraphed as soon as the Cosmic Cube entered the picture in Captain America 1.
Well, at least the eventual appearance of Thanos.
Indeed there was some meandering in getting to Infinity War, but the seeds were there.


Nah. The Cosmic Cube is its own McGuffin Red Skull has chased in the comics for decades with no relation to the Infinity Stones. It's cute to make it important retroactively, but there's zero reason to assume that was the plan going in. The Aether is even flimsier. It actually has an origin in Thor 2 as a creation of Malekith and really has no indication of being intended as the Reality stone until they started reaching back. The only one that's even a little clean is Loki's scepter, but even that feels like something that was decided after the fact. None of these things telegraphed Infinity Gauntlet in any meaningful way. They just got retconned into the story later.

FWIW, when I said there's only 9 of 23 that have anything to do with Infinity Stones, I was counting these. Cap 1, Avengers 1, 2, 3, 4, Thor 2, 3 Guardians 1, Strange 1. 10 I suppose with Captain Marvel. It's still less than half, and I'll still argue of that 10, there's only a couple that deal with the stones in any meaningful way.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/05/19 02:50:59


 
   
 
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