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 aphyon wrote:

You know there was a time when GW via FW made rules for titans that did not break the game. back in 3rd ed while being harder to kill titans were a huge points sink for very little output. there were no destroyer/D/macro etc.. rules titan weaposn were just slightly better 40K scale weapons.

And those titans could actually win?

Breaking doesn't mean they are unbeatable monsters. Look at titans now. Nobody should worry about them. I oppose facing them because they are automatic win. I don't need to even bother to roll single dice. I win with zero dice roll needed...

In epic/AT scale titans work just fine. in fact, having loads of super heavies in epic scale games doesn't slow things down a bit as the rules are simplified to take them into account and the fact that you have the ability to run so many it doesn't diminish an army when you lose one or even a few in the battle.

And in AT if you have played it you know how important activations are...Imperator will be such a point sink opponent can easily avoid it. There just comes point when game bends and breaks and extremes are not good and binary results. Single warhound vs warlord titan will be binary game and once warhound gets too close there's literally nothing warlord can do all game.

You need certain amount of units for both side to work. One imperator vs army will not work.

It's been seen decades and decades for games. You can't just play big games by scaling up sizes. You don't get epic game by playing 30k points 40k. Game breaks down at too small and too big sizes.

I'm not buying it. 3D printers probably can't keep up with mimicking GW's 28mm+ kits for a long time, but they could replicate 6-15mm without any real issue.

 ekwatts wrote:
I agree that epic always felt like an ideal scale for representing 40k, which might seem weird, but seeing those waves of infantry and tanks... It's just great.

I can't wait, to be perfectly honest. Seeing GW pumping out plastic Epic-scale miniatures again will bring a huge grin to my face. People can bang on about the existing versions of Epic being kept alive online, and I've played them, but my experience with the recent Adeptus Titanicus and Aeronautica miniatures has convinced me that I just want GW to jump back in feet-first.

Those 3D printed armies are absolutely wonderful, but they'll only ever be stopgaps. I want the experience of clipping out Space Marine #87 from a sprue again, pushing him into his epic base and breaking him apart at the ankles.

Ahh, childhood.

I wish this attitude was less prevelant but sadly it's why GW will always dominate the market. People just want Citadel and Games Workshop slapped on the box or they'll never touch it.

 Albertorius wrote:

 stonehorse wrote:

 privateer4hire wrote:
Save your downloads of netepic stuff now

Glad I still have my Epic 40,000 books.

GW can do what they want with Epic rules wise, if the models are nice I'll just use them in the classic Epic 40,000

GW's recent forays into their classic games have been abysmal, and a very transparent cash grab... the sheer number of books Necromunda has inow compared to the original is insane.

I mean, I'm already an outlier, as my Epic poison of choice is E:40k, so finding people to play with is already an issue ^^

And yeah, the Necromunda situation is completely nuts, and have killed off all my interest on it.

Shame we live so far apart! Aye, finding people who want to play Epic is hard enough, never mind the edition that for some reason people really dislike.

 His Master's Voice wrote:
Yeah, Epic always felt like the right scale for 40k, and I say that as someone who likes the default 40k aesthetic.

Part of that was better rules. the armies could feel like their lore equivalents. I can teleport in terminators, extract by thunderhawk, and air assault in the next turn. My Orks cheerfully charge or run towards the enemy firing into the air in a horde, but are hard to get to do short controlled aimed bursts... The Eldar will get the initiative and advantage over my Guard and run rings round them. And so on.

Whilst Chaos Marines vs Marines is a an excellent matchup, marines vs marines ain't that hot and I doubt Titans are central enough for them, so the rules would change and depending on the team they have a very patchy record. I honestly can't imagine a decent ruleset and I can't not see them changing basing and other core elements to make previous armies invalid (because a couple of mm won't stop people).

 Arbitrator wrote:
I'm not buying it. 3D printers probably can't keep up with mimicking GW's 28mm+ kits for a long time, but they could replicate 6-15mm without any real issue.

 ekwatts wrote:
I agree that epic always felt like an ideal scale for representing 40k, which might seem weird, but seeing those waves of infantry and tanks... It's just great.

I can't wait, to be perfectly honest. Seeing GW pumping out plastic Epic-scale miniatures again will bring a huge grin to my face. People can bang on about the existing versions of Epic being kept alive online, and I've played them, but my experience with the recent Adeptus Titanicus and Aeronautica miniatures has convinced me that I just want GW to jump back in feet-first.

Those 3D printed armies are absolutely wonderful, but they'll only ever be stopgaps. I want the experience of clipping out Space Marine #87 from a sprue again, pushing him into his epic base and breaking him apart at the ankles.

Ahh, childhood.

I wish this attitude was less prevelant but sadly it's why GW will always dominate the market. People just want Citadel and Games Workshop slapped on the box or they'll never touch it.

I definitely think a lot of hobbyists are nervous about buying anything that isn't shrink-wrapped and with the GW logo on the cover - and just keeping up with the latest releases, whatever they might be.

In some respects I can completely understand this - not everyone has the luxury of gaming colleagues who will go down these rabbit holes of old games, or less popular games with them. If I want to just turn up at a GW on a Thursday night then for the most part its 40k/AoS-way or the highway.

That being said, the internet and social media have done so much in not only keeping these older games alive but in actually making them prosper. Before the relaunch of Blood Bowl there were tournaments in Europe with hundreds of players attending and a massive community. To a lesser extent this has happened with other old specialist GW games, but the Epic community at the moment is really prospering; the likes of Vanguard and Onslaught are producing wonderful proxy miniatures, and 3D printing is exploding. The rules are available for free (for the most part, they have been improved from the originals by dedicated fan communities) - in my mind it really is something quite special. There are tournaments and events happening constantly, and if you want to find an army you can do so. Or why not like the guys from the Tabletop Standard Youtube channel? None of them had played Epic for years, but they just downloaded some Epic Heresy rules for free, and got some (absolutely beautiful looking) 3D prints sorted out for armies. It is not difficult.

So, by all means, wait for an official £100 boxset, and what will no doubt be some nice looking minis. But, in my mind, if you really are a fan of paying at Epic scale (and your hobby isn't just, as Kirby described it, buying GW miniatures) then there is absolutely nothing to stop you starting with it right now.

Imma need a more reliable source than "Valrak said"

chaos0xomega wrote:
Imma need a more reliable source than "Valrak said"

Exactly that. Right now this thread feels like the many other discussions we've had on Epic, with the only difference being "Valrak said it's a rumour it might come back" and then the community recalling the awesomeness of the game and wishlisting what they'd like to see back. To me it doesn't feel like any rumour or leak.

I wish this attitude was less prevelant but sadly it's why GW will always dominate the market. People just want Citadel and Games Workshop slapped on the box or they'll never touch it.

I think people just like Warhammer more tbh, and that is perfectly okay. People complain and moan about Games Workshop non-stop, but at the end of the day they are the best in the business, especially when it comes to compelling worldbuilding. The fact that nerds are hypnotised into stealing plastic toy soldiers is a damning indictment of that.

Personally I've tried other non-warhammer options often enough and none of it has really appealed to me.

I am excited for the future of Warhammer though. It really feels like it's in a renaissance right now, and I hope it continues to do well. The skirmish games GW is putting out are all at minimum good. Warcry is the most fun I've had on the tabletop in ages, and Killteam legit deserves awards. Age of Sigmar has emerged from its crap-tastic beginning and is genuinely flourishing with ten times the player base of fantasy. If AoS had its own Total Warhammer or Dawn of War videogame type of moment I'm sure it would shed the last of its bad image from early on. I haven't played it yet, but the new Horus Heresy seems like it's good, so much so that even the Oldhammer types love it.

If GW keeps up its streak hopefully the Old World and 10th edition and the rumoured Epic will all be as good.

And then there's off the tabletop, so many amazing looking videogames are coming in the next year or so with Space Marine 2. Darktide. Rogue Trader. Boltgun. Shootas, blood, & teef. Immortal Empires. Etc etc

And then there's the potential film stuff. If they manage to pull off that Eisenhorn show then that could be the start of some crazy cinematic universe. Hell, even warhammer plus is pretty fun if you are a hobbyist, that Plague Song episode was Akira levels of fethed up. I loved it.

Straight up, there has never been a better time to be a Warhammer fan.

...I'm just sad that Total Biscuit and iNcontrol aren't alive to see it. They would have loved this era so goddam much and would have been absolute giants in the scene. : (

Rest in peace.

derpherp wrote:
Personally I've tried other non-warhammer options often enough and none of it has really appealed to me.

Question would be how much of that is because GW games were your first ones and you just got imprinted to them

derpherp wrote:

 Overread wrote:


I agree and disagree. That kind of lore and scale is pure awesome; but on the tabletop it means that you'd basically be playing with either titans only and little squares with pictures on them for infantry and tanks; or you'd be playing with infantry and tanks and the feet of a titan as a terrain feature. Basically when the disparity in scale between two models is too great you can only have one or the other.

It's the same as how in games like Battlefleet Gothic fighters are often very limited in variety and represented by tokens half the time. Because they are so so small compared to the mega ships. Instead of 20 different sorts of fighter you've usually 2 or 3 in such a game and that's it. Because no one really wants vast legions of tokens or ships so small that differences are almost impossible to see at 1ft away when actually playing.


I think the current scale of AT is good because it allows you titans, infantry and tanks and aircraft all at once and all with a good level of detailing

I don't think their lore scale should be directly reflected on the tabletop, I would separate them so that there is the more reasonable scale for table top, and then the God Machine scale that is used in Lore and video games and movies. Warhammer table top scale isn't true scale anyway and many things on the table top are a bit bigger and smaller than they should technically be.

Like, if a Warhammer Cinematic Universe ever happens, I'd like to see the Imperator titan to at least be a few times bigger than the statue of liberty which is pretty tame in size for our world. We have buildings that are 8 times taller than the statue of liberty right now.

Seeing an imperator titan from 40,000 years in the future looking like a little baby toddler running around the base of the Burj Khalifa skyscraper is just... a bit gak.

Give me Old Hammer for the Big Screen where the cathedrals on their backs are described as cities and they wield one kilometer long guns. (well maybe not that crazy, but still)

Epic seems like a convenient opportunity to do some lore retconning on this subject.

This is already all throughout the lore for its size and everything so I don’t really know what you are wanting?
They’ll be the size they are meant to be in any live action (or indeed animation) that we see.
It’s never gonna be seen next to the buildings you mention anyway so I guess that bit doesn’t matter..

People complain and moan about Games Workshop non-stop, but at the end of the day they are the best in the business, especially when it comes to compelling worldbuilding.

Classic battletech says world building? -hold my bear


The problem is that GW has built the largest legacy share of the market. making it more accessible, because it is more accessible it becomes bigger in a repeating cycle. because of the position they are in, they are effectively too big to fail. because the gaming community would not put up with the kind of behavior GW gets away with if it was any other smaller competitor.

aphyon wrote:Classic battletech says world building? -hold my bear

I'd rather not hold your bear, thank you - he might try to remove my arm.

And that's not the right to arm bears that Americans are meant to get behind.

derpherp wrote:Age of Sigmar has emerged from its crap-tastic beginning and is genuinely flourishing with ten times the player base of fantasy.

Citation and point of comparison fething required.

 aphyon wrote:

People complain and moan about Games Workshop non-stop, but at the end of the day they are the best in the business, especially when it comes to compelling worldbuilding.

Classic battletech says world building? -hold my bear


The problem is that GW has built the largest legacy share of the market. making it more accessible, because it is more accessible it becomes bigger in a repeating cycle. because of the position they are in, they are effectively too big to fail. because the gaming community would not put up with the kind of behavior GW gets away with if it was any other smaller competitor.

Kind of? Ish?

In the U.K., GW is 100% King. They have High Street presence in the form of shops/recruitment centres. You go in one of those, and each and every sale goes straight to GW. Even better? Going in one you don’t even know other companies exist, let alone see their products.

Yes, they can only do that because that’s been their business model since the very beginning, and back then at least it proved highly successful - certainly pre-internet. But even when it’s arguably a less profitable sales medium than online? It’s still the pre-eminent recruitment and even retention tool.

Anecdote is anecdote, but when I worked for them (last stint was 12 years ago) most months you’d get someone dropping by that used to be in the hobby. Just sticking their nose in, seeing what’s changed. A skilled salesperson could usually make a sale. And sometimes, by no means every time, they’d be back for more. And more. And more. Because you have that tactile shopping experience the internet just doesn’t have. Well. Not yet. Who knows what the future may hold. Even then, you still need to find fanatical enough fans to staff them - because enthusiastic staff (no, not that enthusiastic) Make Sales especially if they can learn how to enthuse others.

No other company has anything like that self contained network of Plastic Crack Pedaler (Peddler? Never sure on that one). It is replicable, but it’s an expensive approach with no immediate pay off. On the scale GW has built it to? Incredibly, incredibly unlikely. And without it, they simply do not have the reach GW have, completely regardless of their Worlds, Models or Rules.

So to say “GW is big because GW is big” is only a tiny part of the overall reasoning behind their ongoing, and indeed growing, success. They kickstarted modern wargaming. They built the ground floor and contributed the most to the modern wargaming market. They’ve been pretty consistent, certainly unlike Battletech they’ve not come and gone in various guises under various owners. Do not overlook that stuff nor handwave it away.

For some reason I am reminded of the sales pitch prior to robocop busting the drugs factory.

Now. On to Epic.

If we get it. And right now it remains an if remember GW are here to make money, not tickle our pickle.

Which makes me think we likely won’t see the crazy boxed sets of yesteryear we commonly associate with Epic.

Company Equivalent of Marines? Sure. Super cheap boxes of Tanks? I’d direct folk price and content wise to AT Knights, which would make that a “sort of” at best.

Either that, or we’ll see significantly large games in terms number of models required. As you may know, I’m lucky enough to have a nearly complete set of 2nd Ed Epic rules, just missing Titan Legions (because that is hella expensive) and oodles of WD only rules in print version I will get round to tracking down one of these days.

The battle reports still work for me, and really set me craving the olden days. But even looking at those, the armies were pretty damned modest. Sure as a snot nosed kid even a single Super Heavy stretched my pocket money, but if I’d had a full time job I’d have been able to comfortably afford decent sized armies of every faction.

Modern Epic? Modern GW. Bigger bigger bigger. Which depending on the rules wouldn’t be a bad thing I suppose. Opinions will I suspect vary of course, but I’d be happy to see Warlords and even Reaver obliterating tank companies in a single round of shooting, because that matches my head canon!

Not to be confused with Head Cannon, one an option for Warlord Titans.

 Dysartes wrote:

aphyon wrote:Classic battletech says world building? -hold my bear

I'd rather not hold your bear, thank you - he might try to remove my arm.

And that's not the right to arm bears that Americans are meant to get behind.

derpherp wrote:Age of Sigmar has emerged from its crap-tastic beginning and is genuinely flourishing with ten times the player base of fantasy.

Citation and point of comparison fething required.

I mean, AoS blossomed here after the release of the first generals handbook. I recall very clearly the two or three people playing it in my area in 2016 were constantly struggling to even get a single game in per week. Both of the LGS at the time did not carry any stock of the game at all. Today in 2022, our AoS community outnumbers our 40K community 2-1, and they've shown no signs of slowing down. I have heard similar stories from other parts of the world as well.

If AoS is selling better it's because GW's customer base exploded with 40k 8e and since most people are terrified of playing non-GW games no matter how craptastic they are, they inevitably went with AoS because it was GW's fantasy offering. Even 40k's sales were starting to drop in 2015.

You only need to stick your head in to Old World social media spaces to see a similar effect. No matter how angry people were about Fantasy being killed many of those same people still can't comprehend the idea of playing a ruleset (even with their Fantasy models being fully useable in it) that isn't an officially supported Games Workshop product and act like Old World is their only chance of ever playing a rank/file wargame.

No doubt we'll see something similar when/if Epic is coming back; a lot of people clamouring about how much they loved Epic, how they wish they had models for it but stubbornly ignoring fan rulesets even to fill the time and pretending their old rulebooks crumpled to dust the second GW binned it.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
No other company has anything like that self contained network of Plastic Crack Pedaler (Peddler? Never sure on that one).

Peddler.

In theory, if it were a word, I'd imagine Pedaler would be an alternative to Cyclist.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/pedaler
Imagine no longer.

Back on topic, I expect an official epic release would fragment the fandom.

 Arbitrator wrote:
I'm not buying it. 3D printers probably can't keep up with mimicking GW's 28mm+ kits for a long time, but they could replicate 6-15mm without any real issue.

What's more, I'm unsure that GW is prepared to support Nu-Epic (as a Specialist Game) to the level to satisfy much of the fanbase. People will want their IG and Eldar and Orks and Tyranids. They'll want their Gargants and Stompas and Warlocks and Revenants. They'll also want their Manticores and Basilisks and Hydras and Wyverns and Haruspex and Exocrines and on and on. Epic done right would involve a huge number of SKUs, even if they start combining things on sprues.

Would old and new Epic players be satisfied with 'mirror-matchy' games featuring Imperial units? Considering 'xenos when?' pops up in every AT conversation, I'm pretty skeptical. Would they be happy with a pared-down, Titans-planes-tanks game? Again, I'm skeptical.

I think I'd be more inclined to believe this if they'd already released xenos Titans for AT to start paying off the development and mold production costs. But they haven't. Some Imperial Titan kits and Imperial and xenos aircraft models don't add up to GW being halfway to Epic, or at least the kind of Epic that people have in mind.

Would expect Epic set in the HH. I doubt they start with many different sprues for different Factions from the beginning.

 gorgon wrote:

 Arbitrator wrote:
I'm not buying it. 3D printers probably can't keep up with mimicking GW's 28mm+ kits for a long time, but they could replicate 6-15mm without any real issue.

What's more, I'm unsure that GW is prepared to support Nu-Epic (as a Specialist Game) to the level to satisfy much of the fanbase. People will want their IG and Eldar and Orks and Tyranids. They'll want their Gargants and Stompas and Warlocks and Revenants. They'll also want their Manticores and Basilisks and Hydras and Wyverns and Haruspex and Exocrines and on and on. Epic done right would involve a huge number of SKUs, even if they start combining things on sprues.

Would old and new Epic players be satisfied with 'mirror-matchy' games featuring Imperial units? Considering 'xenos when?' pops up in every AT conversation, I'm pretty skeptical. Would they be happy with a pared-down, Titans-planes-tanks game? Again, I'm skeptical.

I think I'd be more inclined to believe this if they'd already released xenos Titans for AT to start paying off the development and mold production costs. But they haven't. Some Imperial Titan kits and Imperial and xenos aircraft models don't add up to GW being halfway to Epic, or at least the kind of Epic that people have in mind.

I think GW today could actually support a lot for Epic without many kits. Don't forget back in the day most armies had 1 small boxed set for infantry and that was pretty much it. Vehicles then came in two forms, the core being plastic and the specialist being metal. GW today would just do all plastic so a whole army could, in theory, be supported by perhaps 4 sprue. Plus things like infantry might even count as half a sprue and just double or triple up in the box. For the same amount of sprue space as 1 Warlord Titan you could likely have a huge bulk of the core of any faction in models released for Epic.

I do agree though, I'd have or would expect to see Chaos and Xenos titans in AT before seeing Epic. Right now its mirror-match loyalist and traitor, we are only just starting to see warped titans in the rules/fluff so we should cross our fingers we'll see them in plastic

GW elbowing their way back into epic would be terrible for the game.

It would exponentially raise the costs of entry for new players.

Once that is complete they would next turn to completely destroying the tenuous balance of the metagame, subjecting it to the endless treadmill of churn and burn to drive quarterly sales.

And finally they would then bully, threaten and intimidate every small DIY 3d sculptor who ever dared to dream about what sort of representations fantasy tropes like "space bugs" or "space marine" could look like until they've monopolised the game design space, collapsing the wide variation in potential army design into the carefully guarded tedium of GWs lazy game design philosophy.

Where’s the Amen emoji?

Couldn’t have been stated any better.

 Gregor Samsa wrote:
GW elbowing their way back into epic would be terrible for the game.

It would exponentially raise the costs of entry for new players.

Once that is complete they would next turn to completely destroying the tenuous balance of the metagame, subjecting it to the endless treadmill of churn and burn to drive quarterly sales.

And finally they would then bully, threaten and intimidate every small DIY 3d sculptor who ever dared to dream about what sort of representations fantasy tropes like "space bugs" or "space marine" could look like until they've monopolised the game design space, collapsing the wide variation in potential army design into the carefully guarded tedium of GWs lazy game design philosophy.

Actually if you look at how GW acts today with regard to copyright its really not like that at all. The only ones they are targeting are those which are outright copies or which copy specific design elements/insignias and the like.

Someone who made Epic models that look like GW models in all but name, yeah they 100% will get hit with copyright strikes. Someone who used their own imagination and came up with their own designs that perhaps only mirror GW's unit slot roster system - totally fine and won't be touched at all. Though the latter group might get targeted if they sell those models as "Warhammer Space Marine" or similar names on Etsy or other stores (or merchants of those creators do)

Apparently Epic is both alive and well AND in danger of immediate collapse as soon as GW takes notice.

Truly, a Schrödinger's Game.

RazorEdge wrote:
Would expect Epic set in the HH. I doubt they start with many different sprues for different Factions from the beginning.

Yes, they can do that. And is that what the customers - new or old - want in a new Epic? It’s GW’s current approach to AT, and there’s a vocal minority that’s unhappy with/staying on the sidelines because it’s Imperial on Imperial. I suspect those voices would be more plentiful and louder with Epic in the same scenario since that game has much deeper roots…and in fact already has a more modern rule set that can be played right now and with third-party miniatures.

Let’s also remember that a pared-down Epic ruleset has already bombed once for GW, and it basically ended Epic as a core game for the company. I just think an Epic relaunch is a lot trickier than say the Necromunda relaunch.

 gorgon wrote:

RazorEdge wrote:
Would expect Epic set in the HH. I doubt they start with many different sprues for different Factions from the beginning.

Yes, they can do that. And is that what the customers - new or old - want in a new Epic? It’s GW’s current approach to AT, and there’s a vocal minority that’s unhappy with/staying on the sidelines because it’s Imperial on Imperial. I suspect those voices would be more plentiful and louder with Epic in the same scenario since that game has much deeper roots…and in fact already has a more modern rule set that can be played right now and with third-party miniatures.

Let’s also remember that a pared-down Epic ruleset has already bombed once for GW, and it basically ended Epic as a core game for the company. I just think an Epic relaunch is a lot trickier than say the Necromunda relaunch.

Exactly!

The "Big Guns" edition lost a lot of people, even though it is a great game in terms of rules mechanics, apparently.

GW probably knows this?

And leaving out the Xenos stuff wouldn't be prudent!

 ekwatts wrote:
I agree that epic always felt like an ideal scale for representing 40k, which might seem weird, but seeing those waves of infantry and tanks... It's just great.

I can't wait, to be perfectly honest. Seeing GW pumping out plastic Epic-scale miniatures again will bring a huge grin to my face. People can bang on about the existing versions of Epic being kept alive online, and I've played them, but my experience with the recent Adeptus Titanicus and Aeronautica miniatures has convinced me that I just want GW to jump back in feet-first.

Those 3D printed armies are absolutely wonderful, but they'll only ever be stopgaps. I want the experience of clipping out Space Marine #87 from a sprue again, pushing him into his epic base and breaking him apart at the ankles.

Ahh, childhood.

Yeah, breaking at the ankles was really an issue.

 schoon wrote:

Toofast wrote:
That would also line up with the fact that AT and AI have been kind of abandoned. They wouldn't be releasing new expansions for those games if they're being rolled into epic.

While AI sales have been soft, saying that AT has been abandoned is a stretch. It frequently has stretches of quiet between releases, and even then, the Dire Wolf is a pretty recent release.

Yes but look at the campaign books. We got 6 or 7 of them within about a year of the original game release. Since then, nothing other than a couple FW only models with terrible value and even worse casting. Every post I've ever seen about armigers was about how awful the casting is...on a brand new mold that costs $20 per model for a 1" tall figure. I love the game but not a fan of the direction GW has gone with the model releases. Warmaster being 2 totally separate kits with no option to change loadout or buy the weapon sprue alone really turned me off.