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I thought that before the fall, the elder were the dominant species in the galaxy? Like humans are now. So that’s how to get an idea of how many there were.

They became so crapulant and hedonistic because they had AI to do everything for them that they imploded by turning on each other to get their kicks. I don’t think this scenario makes sense unless a population is bloated.

Eldar are very psychic by nature and feel emotions way way more than humans. So they wouldn't need populations as vast as humanity to generate the same impact in the warp. Also reading the BL books the Eldar weren't living like humans in dense ultra populated cities.

They had cities, but they were far more lightly populated. Their vast population would come from the sheer number of worlds they'd settle and live upon.

So chances are they had dense population centres but nothing like the hive cities that the Imperium has.

 Overread wrote:
The impression I got is that who did and didn't get eaten by Slaanesh was very random. So I'd wager they shouldn't have a genetic bottleneck. Plus don't forget how long ago it was. Even with a slower reproductive rate they should have moved well past a genetic bottleneck unless something funky was going on.

This touches on an interesting point. How did some space elves survive the big initial soul slurp of Slaanesh's birth? Ex: in Jain Zar, we see some Slaaneshi type hanging out in a collosseum. You could maybe argue that Jain herself wasn't "in sync" with Slaanesh enough to get her soul yanked out, but surely the collosseum boss and his goons were? Or did the big soul slurp not happen until after Asurmen and Jain met?

 Overread wrote:
The impression I got is that who did and didn't get eaten by Slaanesh was very random. So I'd wager they shouldn't have a genetic bottleneck. Plus don't forget how long ago it was. Even with a slower reproductive rate they should have moved well past a genetic bottleneck unless something funky was going on.

There were 2 distinct populations of Eldar(3 if you count Exodites) who survived.

The regular Eldar put on soul stones which protected them and also fled the core worlds. The Dark Eldar are the very very small numbers of non-soul stoned Eldar who were on the fringes of the core worlds, in the webway, or otherwise outside what became the Eye.

While maybe not every Eldar who was on the core worlds got instanommed by Slannesh, I doubt more than the barest handful(hundreds to thousands at most IMO) survived the immediate infestation of daemons and direct exposure to the Warp. For the most part, anybody who was in the core worlds died more or less instantly when it happened IMO. Its all fun and games till the floor literally becomes lava, 99.99% of everyone around you just died, and countless daemons are coming after you.

The Eldar who got the message and became the Craftworlders probably shared the information with mostly their closest family and friends. So more likely to be at least somewhat related genetically than the average Eldar, plus they've been in an isolated genepool for each Craftworld in the following millennia as the individual craftworlds dont get around all that much.

And with a consistently shrinking population for that entire time, its not doing their genepool any favors. Maybe if they had just noped out of the galaxy and went somewhere else, stuck together, and just gone out into the universe they might have been able to fully recover.

They are magical space elves. Do they even have genes? Yes I know about Clouseax, or however you spell it. Space elves! Maybe psychic manipulation can sort out all possible genetic problems. Maybe the problem is just that they keep Getting murderized at a greater rate than they can replace.

The Dark Eldar may actually have outnumbered the Craftworld Eldar as Commorragh was untouched directly by the Fall. Though their lifestyle leads to more mortality, they seem to reproduce rapidly using the Haemonculi's tech.

How many survived the Fall on the main Eldar worlds is unknown, but we know that Iliathin (who would later become Asurmen) did survive alongside his brother Tethesis, and Iliathin survived several years by himself in an abandoned Eldar temple. It was basically a post-apocalyptic world with survivors having to find pockets of safety and avoid the roving bands of daemons and other survivors. Iliathin noted that the temple precincts were avoided by the daemons so it seems there was at least some residual power from the old Eldar deities. That was just one world, so I could imagine a similar scene being played out across all the other Eldar worlds. Eventually the survivors would have either been hunted down, rescued/escaped into the Webway, or perhaps given in to become Crone World Slaanesh worshippers.

There was a hint in one of the Eldar Codices that several Craftworlds might very well have left the galaxy altogether, leaving burnt out stars in their wake (it's implied they did something to drain the stars to power their escape). Since 40k is a story about the Milky Way galaxy, these Eldar exiles are essentially out of the story, but it does plant the story seed that maybe the Eldar escape and start over afresh in a new galaxy or at least survive en route in the intergalactic void (assuming they don't run into Tyranids).

There are multiple Eldar factions. The possibly most numerous are the Dark Eldar. Then there are the Craftworlders. Exodites exist and keep being hinted at by GW. The Harlequins are a faction that recruits from the others as it seems all Harlequins become invested into their roles that they don't breed. There are the Ynnari, though so far like the Harlequins they seem to be a faction that recruits from the others.Then there are the unaligned like the corsairs. Gav Thorpe in his Path of the Outcast book also portrayed an unaligned Webway city at a junction in the Webway, where the various kindreds of Eldar intermingled. In Gav Thorpe's Path books and in one of his short stories, he makes mention of the White Seers, a faction of Eldar psykers devoted to containing and destroying dangerous artifacts and aligned with the Black Library.

So in short, there are actually many Eldar factions, and to be honest I find the various conflicts between them or how they deal with Ynnead more interesting recently than the Manichean Imperial vs. Chaos lineup.

Yep the factions we see on tabletop are only a fraction of each races total faction makeup. Plus even within a single faction there will be different groups that operate within that faction in itself. With Eldar we already see this with things like the Aspect Warriors who are factions within most of the main Craftworlds


I think the key is that a race that is dwindling yet still on the Galactic playing field in the setting is still a very big faction. There are still billions of Eldar around. They can lose craftworlds and still survive very well. They can lose planets (darn GW for teasing us with the Exodite animation where an Exodite world is smashed up by Imperial and Tau forces).

Eldar can mount massive assaults, take heavy losses and fight on the Galactic field. The issue is that their overall reproduction rate is slow so each loss is much harder to replace. Furthermore much of their tech is ancient and hard or impossible for them to replicate again.

They've lost access to some knowledge, resources and methods. Especially as they refuse to use some aspects of their ancient technology least it leads them back down the path that they went before the fall. So they don't build huge armies of AI controlled robots to fight for them.



The whole shift with Ynnari is a big shift for the Eldar Lore and its a shame that it was kind of handled poorly in that the tabletop side was a bit of a cop out (1 new kit creating a new "army" that was just mashing two existing ones together - one of which was supposed to form the core but was running around, at the time, with a very out of date line of models).
The whole idea of them pushing back, fighting back ,reclaiming land, populating again and generally rising up again and shifting gear out of a vanishing race angle. Which they've basically inherited from Old World and from Lord of the Rings.

It's also a shift in attitude; the Eldar up till now have mostly been a defensive faction who manipulation on other factions for their offensive movements and the precognitive powers of their farseers to try and steer events toward conclusions that benefit the Eldar. Manipulation, defence, retreat, hide - these have been their talents. It doesn't mean they don't get stuck into a fight, but that their general attitude is one of a managed sustain/retreat approach. Ynnari is a total shift toward a more direct offensive move. Taking the initiative and striking out directly.

Grey Templar wrote:
The regular Eldar put on soul stones which protected them and also fled the core worlds.

Nitpick: Waystones/spirit stones were apparently only adopted after the craftworlds were built and took off. At least, according to Jain Zar. I like that novel a lot, but it raised a lot of questions, and now the series is apparently cancelled(?).

And with a consistently shrinking population for that entire time, its not doing their genepool any favors. Maybe if they had just noped out of the galaxy and went somewhere else, stuck together, and just gone out into the universe they might have been able to fully recover.

I'm not a geneticist, so I may be way off, but I'm pretty sure craftworlds have populations in the hundreds of thousands if not millions. I'm pretty sure that's a sufficiently high population to avoid any genepool-related problems. (Plus, immigration from other craftworlds does presumably happen albeit rarely; survivors from wrecked maiden/craft worlds have to go somewhere.)

Flinty wrote:They are magical space elves. Do they even have genes? Yes I know about Clouseax, or however you spell it. Space elves! Maybe psychic manipulation can sort out all possible genetic problems. Maybe the problem is just that they keep Getting murderized at a greater rate than they can replace.

Iirc, they supposedly have "triple helix" DNA. I also sort of got the impression that genetic mutation and disease were sort of unheard of for aeldari either due to a quirk of their biology, genetic engineering from back in the day, or whatever the Tress of Isha actually is. But yeah, I think the dwindling space elf population is more to do with their own to not reproduce very often and the 41st millenium being a dangerous place than anything else. Craftworlders don't seem to want for food or (usually) safety; the only thing keeping their birth rate artificially low that I can think of is that they might be a little short on waystones.

Iracundus wrote:
There was a hint in one of the Eldar Codices that several Craftworlds might very well have left the galaxy altogether, leaving burnt out stars in their wake (it's implied they did something to drain the stars to power their escape). Since 40k is a story about the Milky Way galaxy, these Eldar exiles are essentially out of the story, but it does plant the story seed that maybe the Eldar escape and start over afresh in a new galaxy or at least survive en route in the intergalactic void (assuming they don't run into Tyranids).

You uh. You may want to read:

Overread wrote: Ynnari is a total shift toward a more direct offensive move. Taking the initiative and striking out directly.

The Ynnari were a breath of fresh air for me. I like the dying race angle to the eldar, but they had this real, "Even when we win, we lose," thing going on that made it hard to care about the stakes of any given narrative. The Ynnari are probably going to fail, end up being duped by Slaanesh, or bring about some tragic result that's arguably worse than the current state of affairs, but at least they have a glimmer of hope to fight for. Desperate space elves that are willing to burn fast and bright for a shot at a real victory is very compelling to me.

I agree, Ynnari done right is a breath of fresh air for the Eldar and can push them forward rather than backward. Make them major agents and players in the setting again not just subtle manipulators that sometimes mostly just nudge things around.

Give them some grand battles, victories and defeats!

I have read Rise of the Ynnari: Ghost Warrior but it was long time ago and you'll have to be more specific as to what you are referring to.

 Overread wrote:
I agree, Ynnari done right is a breath of fresh air for the Eldar and can push them forward rather than backward. Make them major agents and players in the setting again not just subtle manipulators that sometimes mostly just nudge things around.

Give them some grand battles, victories and defeats!

What they need is actual Ynnari models, beyond their triumvirate. Right now they are a faction that is parasitic-like in terms of models. Having a range of their own would help establish them as a true faction in their own right.

Iracundus wrote:
I have read Rise of the Ynnari: Ghost Warrior but it was long time ago and you'll have to be more specific as to what you are referring to.

 Overread wrote:
I agree, Ynnari done right is a breath of fresh air for the Eldar and can push them forward rather than backward. Make them major agents and players in the setting again not just subtle manipulators that sometimes mostly just nudge things around.

Give them some grand battles, victories and defeats!

What they need is actual Ynnari models, beyond their triumvirate. Right now they are a faction that is parasitic-like in terms of models. Having a range of their own would help establish them as a true faction in their own right.

Agreed. The problem is I see Ynnari as being the same as Primaris - marketing choices made by managers.

Primaris were clearly the new edition of marines which then got placed alongside instead of upgrading the sculpts - hence why the army roster for Primaris has broadly copy-catted the Marine roster
Ynnari were clearly a case of taking a few new hero models and getting the idea of making a new faction by merging two others. So basically zero new investment and the idea of getting new people on board and craftworld/dark eldar players branching out into the other half.

It sort of failed cause craftworld were part of that core and craftworld, at the time, had a lot of older sculpts and not even one aspect warrior group in plastic,


Plus personally if GW were going to make a new eldar group why not do Exodites - they've been marketing them for freaking years.

I wouldn't snub some ynnari-specific units, but I also really like that ynnari feel like a bunch of hopefuls fresh from their old lives, and I wouldn't want to lose that element. I could see GW locking craftworld/drukhari units behind a Brood Brothers type barrier if ynnari got enough of their own models.

 Wyldhunt wrote:
I wouldn't snub some ynnari-specific units, but I also really like that ynnari feel like a bunch of hopefuls fresh from their old lives, and I wouldn't want to lose that element. I could see GW locking craftworld/drukhari units behind a Brood Brothers type barrier if ynnari got enough of their own models.

Yeah I could see that working. Thing is I'd feel all salty because Ynnari aren't Exodites unless they rebrand

"Ynnari faces huge political opposition; craftworld and DE warriors leave in droves after major defeat; Ynnari forced to the fringes and recruits a core of Exodites warriors; supported by a few of the Aspect warrior covens from both DE and Craftworld groups (ok I know DE don't have aspects but they have similar elite style units)

 Wyldhunt wrote:

I'm not a geneticist, so I may be way off, but I'm pretty sure craftworlds have populations in the hundreds of thousands if not millions. I'm pretty sure that's a sufficiently high population to avoid any genepool-related problems. (Plus, immigration from other craftworlds does presumably happen albeit rarely; survivors from wrecked maiden/craft worlds have to go somewhere.)

It depends. In the real world here on Earth, it is estimated that you need around 200 individuals to maintain a viable genepool, but that is heavily dependent on how closely related everybody in that genepool is, the specific species, etc... If everybody is closely related to each other, it doesn't matter how many people you have.

Then there is the method of Eldar reproduction requiring multiple couplings, and thus allowing for multiple fathers. This might seem like a good thing for genetic diversity, and it could be, but it actually might not be. It depends on how heavily that option for multiple fathers was used prior to the Fall. If it was used a lot, and I mean a lot, it would actually have led to a homogenization of the genepool as everybody is related to everybody else more than simple 1 male 1 female pairings. And given the Pre-fall Eldar were all massive hedonists my money is on this option being used a LOT!

So we really can't say for sure, but having decently high population numbers on the Craftworlds isn't necessarily a preclusion for genetic issues.

And that's before we get to the fact that their technological level is high enough that they can tinker with genetics if they wish/need too.

Three things:
1. The Eldar were created by masters of the craft of life-shaping
2. Eldar do not mutate much, or at all, even when directly exposed to the powers of the warp
3. The Eldar have not evolved in 65Myr at least

From that, I’m pretty sure that whatever automatic correction mechanism the old ones built into their genome can cope with a little genetic bottleneck…

I also suspect this is part of why their reproduction is so involved; gotta get multiple samples and cross-check for errors, right?

The simple answer to the OP's question is "too many" - as in, "one Elf in a setting is one too many."

As for the debate about quintrillions, the likely reason for the choice of word is that the author thought it sounded good, regardless of the impact it has on the setting. Nothing more, nothing less.

 Dysartes wrote:
The simple answer to the OP's question is "too many" - as in, "one Elf in a setting is one too many."

As for the debate about quintrillions, the likely reason for the choice of word is that the author thought it sounded good, regardless of the impact it has on the setting. Nothing more, nothing less.

I don’t know.

A decade and a half ago, 40k was big on all the space battle forums, and people quantified the heck out of it. Numbers of humans and numbers of ships were both much higher when the information was collated than BL writers at the time seemed to be aware. “Countless billions” became “many/tens of quadrillions”, and so on. Then BL writers started to pick up on the larger scale and mention it directly, especially McNeill and Wraight. Near the end of 4th edition is also when they started recalibrating the implications of the Eldar, Necrons and Old Ones in light of the Oldcron codex, and we saw mention of the War in Heaven taking place across multiple galaxies over millions of years. The Eldar who ruled space on and off for tens of millions of years, who used automated labor and defense, absolutely could have had a population 100 times that of the declining current Imperium of Man. Limiting a billion-year-long conflict to one galaxy and roughly 10,000-40,000 years of human population growth is the same kind of scale ignorance that leads to 1 million Space Marines.


The big numbers aren’t the problem. Minimalism is the problem.

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Wyldhunt wrote:
But while they hypothetically could have done all that, do we have any evidence that they actually did? Because everything I remember about pre-Fall aeldari kind of suggests they probably didn't.

Well, the evidence they did is the observation of "Quintillions of Eldar dying". Yes, it was through a warp vision, but that is about as close to an actual observation of the actual event outside of having been present.

Evidence that there never were quintillions of Eldar is non-existent(you can't prove a negative). There is no evidence that quintillions of Eldar didn't die. There is a lot of evidence that a LOT of Eldar did die. Numbers are unknown other than a claim by someone having a warp vision.

There isn't really any reason for the vision to be incorrect on that specific detail. No reason for exaggeration. No plot point hinges on the difference between trillions and quintillions.

So the evidence amounts to,

1) There was an ancient Type 3 Civilization called the Eldar.

2) The birth of a chaos god caused the destruction of 99% of this civilization's population and territory, leaving behind the Eye of Terror.

A dude is claiming to have seen in a warp vision that quintillions of Eldar died in this cataclysm. The Warp is confirmed magic, and can even allow for time travel. There is no reason for this information to be unreliable, no benefit to anyone for it to be untruthful or an exaggeration. It is certainly not impossible given the Eldar's level of technology and age, so there is nothing preventing them from having attained those population amounts.

So the simplest and most logical explanation is to believe the story unless we have something more reliable that contradicts it. Evidence that there definitely were never that many Eldar, like census records of the Prefall, OR evidence that someone is lying about that number for some reason.

Nothing is as reliable as a Warp Vision that by definition is based on the subjective feelings of the receptor.

And it will be an absolute novelty that a BL author throws an hyperbolic number.

 Wyldhunt wrote:

Fair enough. But also, we've had a fair few stories set in and around the Eye at this point, and afaik, no one has felt the need to call out what an unusually high density of planets there are in that region of space.

There's an illegal goods trader in the novel Eye of Terror that does state there's more worlds inside the Eye than there should be given the area of "space" it covers and he only skims the exterior edges to trade with for fear of not making it back. The problem is determining whether that's because of Eldar stuff or warp stuff(most likely warp shenanigans, honestly), so using the "modern" Eye of Terror is a bad idea in general.

The Eye is a nexus between reality and the Warp. Everything within the Eye is also in the Warp and when a ship crosses its boundaries, it too is then in the Warp. Worlds within the Eye are also in Warp space and as such physics has no real meaning, which explains why there are more planets within the Eye than should reasonably exist. It is an unreasonable realm after all.

 Gert wrote:
The Eye is a nexus between reality and the Warp. Everything within the Eye is also in the Warp and when a ship crosses its boundaries, it too is then in the Warp. Worlds within the Eye are also in Warp space and as such physics has no real meaning, which explains why there are more planets within the Eye than should reasonably exist. It is an unreasonable realm after all.

I assumed the implication was that the populated Eldar worlds got “sucked in” by the awakening of She Who Thirsts, along with the souls they used to home.

They did but the opening of the Eye bled the Warp into realspace at the same time. All of Eye space is technically part of the Warp while also being accessible without having to use a Warp drive to enter it.

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Wyldhunt wrote:
But while they hypothetically could have done all that, do we have any evidence that they actually did? Because everything I remember about pre-Fall aeldari kind of suggests they probably didn't.

Well, the evidence they did is the observation of "Quintillions of Eldar dying". Yes, it was through a warp vision, but that is about as close to an actual observation of the actual event outside of having been present.

Have a qoute, pls?