Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
2023/05/04 17:29:16
Subject: What's the substance of the argument that "Star Trek The Animated Series" Isn't Real Trek?
BobtheInquisitor wrote: Which is where I want them to stay. In Niven’s Known Space, where they belong.
So it's confirmed that the Niven's Kzin and the Star Trek Kzinti are 100% the same race, same population, same history, etc? Instead of one being a 'tribute' (coughcopy-pastecough) that could harbor significant differences below the surface?
The Kzinti STTAS episode “the slaver weapon” was written by Larry Niven, and adapted from his own Known Space short story “The Soft Weapon”.
And in Known Space, Kzinti is the plural of Kzin, so the terminology is the same in both universes.
Which still doesn't quite answer the question. But it does allow me to narrow the actual question down a bit.
Did Niven intend for his Known Space universe to become fully part of the Star Trek Universe? Or did he just use his own writings as inspiration for his own contributions to the Star Trek Universe?
The two are very different things.
CHAOS! PANIC! DISORDER!
My job here is done.
2023/05/04 17:38:07
Subject: What's the substance of the argument that "Star Trek The Animated Series" Isn't Real Trek?
Known Space is fundamentally incompatible with Star Trek. If Niven had really wanted KS to fold into Star Trek, he would have written it differently. (He had a few other settings for series he would write in, so he wasn’t limited to the KS series. It was just his most popular setting.)
Larry Niven was the big name I. Science fiction novels at the time. Getting him to adapt an episode would have added prestige, like getting Harlan Ellison to write an episode of TOS or Neil Gaiman to write an episode of Babylon 5. But Ellison didn’t bring in A Boy and His Dog, and Gaiman left the American Gods out of the Babylon 5 franchise…
BobtheInquisitor wrote: Which is where I want them to stay. In Niven’s Known Space, where they belong.
So it's confirmed that the Niven's Kzin and the Star Trek Kzinti are 100% the same race, same population, same history, etc? Instead of one being a 'tribute' (coughcopy-pastecough) that could harbor significant differences below the surface?
The Kzinti STTAS episode “the slaver weapon” was written by Larry Niven, and adapted from his own Known Space short story “The Soft Weapon”.
And in Known Space, Kzinti is the plural of Kzin, so the terminology is the same in both universes.
Which still doesn't quite answer the question. But it does allow me to narrow the actual question down a bit.
Did Niven intend for his Known Space universe to become fully part of the Star Trek Universe? Or did he just use his own writings as inspiration for his own contributions to the Star Trek Universe?
The two are very different things.
Different universe, same multiverse...
'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'
- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
2023/05/04 22:07:54
Subject: What's the substance of the argument that "Star Trek The Animated Series" Isn't Real Trek?
Simple answer; whoever made first contact with the Kzinti in the Star Trek universe was a big fan of 20th century science fiction and decided to use a name from fiction for the coincidentally similar species they’d just met…
Zed wrote: *All statements reflect my opinion at this moment. if some sort of pretty new model gets released (or if I change my mind at random) I reserve the right to jump on any bandwagon at will.
2023/05/04 22:41:14
Subject: What's the substance of the argument that "Star Trek The Animated Series" Isn't Real Trek?
Jadenim wrote: Simple answer; whoever made first contact with the Kzinti in the Star Trek universe was a big fan of 20th century science fiction and decided to use a name from fiction for the coincidentally similar species they’d just met…
Same guy who first met the Nausicaans? What are the odds.
I sure hope we get to meet his other contacts, the Vorlons, Decepticons, Crites and Mogwai.
Well, if the captain of a deep space mission was that type of person chance is high that made contact with a lot of species for the first time and named them
Harry, bring this ring to Narnia or the Sith will take the Enterprise
2023/05/05 09:48:17
Subject: What's the substance of the argument that "Star Trek The Animated Series" Isn't Real Trek?
kodos wrote: Well, if the captain of a deep space mission was that type of person chance is high that made contact with a lot of species for the first time and named them
Or at least the name the Federation would use for them.
CHAOS! PANIC! DISORDER!
My job here is done.
2023/05/07 15:56:50
Subject: Re:What's the substance of the argument that "Star Trek The Animated Series" Isn't Real Trek?
Its got Gene Roddenberry's name on it and its voiced by the original cast. The animation was all one could have asked for back in the early 70s, and the stories are well regarded by fans. The next animated show to surpass it in this respect was Batman: The Animated Series.
And yes, M'Ress is an absolute fox and its a no-brainer to give them their own show. Speaking of which, Trek could do with another animated spin-off...
Casual gaming, mostly solo-coop these days.
2023/05/08 12:40:23
Subject: What's the substance of the argument that "Star Trek The Animated Series" Isn't Real Trek?
Yes... but not the same thing, IMHO. Some works just blend better than others. Niven's Kzinti have made it into the ST universe at least on the fan level.
.
They were also name checked in Picard S1 ("Nepenthe") - Riker specifically mentions having had some trouble with them - hence the house shields getting an upgrade.
I'm OVER 50 (and so far over everyone's BS, too).
Old enough to know better, young enough to not give a ****.
That is not dead which can eternal lie ...
... and yet, with strange aeons, even death may die.
2023/05/09 03:30:24
Subject: What's the substance of the argument that "Star Trek The Animated Series" Isn't Real Trek?
Yes... but not the same thing, IMHO. Some works just blend better than others. Niven's Kzinti have made it into the ST universe at least on the fan level.
.
They were also name checked in Picard S1 ("Nepenthe") - Riker specifically mentions having had some trouble with them - hence the house shields getting an upgrade.
Yeah. Also, ya really can't put much stock in the fact that there never was a Kzinti character. An 8 foot tall feline would have been difficult to pull off. Nothing similar was ever attempted with CGI until the Gorn on Enterprise. It simply wasn't possible.
First, all means to conciliate; failing that, all means to crush.
-Cardinal Richelieu
2023/05/09 06:36:09
Subject: What's the substance of the argument that "Star Trek The Animated Series" Isn't Real Trek?
I would say the first officer on Discover would count as predating the Gorn, and they weren’t even the full cgi. Different makeup could have easily made them a cat instead of what we got.
2023/05/09 08:01:43
Subject: What's the substance of the argument that "Star Trek The Animated Series" Isn't Real Trek?
Also don't forget that within a race there can be significant variation in body properties. So they could have got a very tall actor to play the part and then simply had them be a "small/short" member of their species as part of their character.
Chances are a bigger issue would have been practicalities on set - things like all the doors being too short and such .
More info about the Kzinti and their place in Star Trek canon:
The name of the species comes from a biography of Lt. M'Ress, published by Lincoln Enterprises in 1974, which claims that the Caitians are related to the Kzinti, and were from Cait. This is corroborated by extensive commentary by Larry Niven, author of most of the Known Space books and virtually the entire Known Space sub-series The Man-Kzin Wars,primarily found in his short story books "N-Space", "Playgrounds of the Mind", and "The Patchwork Man".
From StarTrek.com, "The felinoid Caitians and the warlike Kzinti share common roots in the deep past — as do Vulcans and Romulans. As with the Vulcans and the Romulans, the two groups went their separate ways to develop as two entirely different civilizations.
The Kzinti were 'decanonized' with TAS as M'Ress was decanonized.
A Caitian admiral later appeared in Star Trek IV, recanonizing the specieis but not the Kzinti.
Then Lower Decks featured a Kzinti background character (one of many references in the show to TAS) which has more or less been taken as recanonizing the Kzinti too.
Though, for a lot of people TAS was never really decanonized in the first place so *shrug*
AduroT wrote: I would say the first officer on Discover would count as predating the Gorn, and they weren’t even the full cgi. Different makeup could have easily made them a cat instead of what we got.
I'll take your word for it, as I didn't watch that show much, but I'm curious, have you got a link?
First, all means to conciliate; failing that, all means to crush.
-Cardinal Richelieu
2023/05/12 15:31:43
Subject: What's the substance of the argument that "Star Trek The Animated Series" Isn't Real Trek?
AduroT wrote: I would say the first officer on Discover would count as predating the Gorn, and they weren’t even the full cgi. Different makeup could have easily made them a cat instead of what we got.
I'll take your word for it, as I didn't watch that show much, but I'm curious, have you got a link?
2023/05/13 07:14:58
Subject: What's the substance of the argument that "Star Trek The Animated Series" Isn't Real Trek?
That's just Saru.
He's a Kelpien, not even a remotely saurian species. Also played by Doug Jones - no stranger to "non-human humanoid in prosthetics" roles.
Linus (the actual Saurian on the disco crew) is also an actor in a mask and prosthetics though.
I'm OVER 50 (and so far over everyone's BS, too).
Old enough to know better, young enough to not give a ****.
That is not dead which can eternal lie ...
... and yet, with strange aeons, even death may die.
2023/05/13 09:48:03
Subject: What's the substance of the argument that "Star Trek The Animated Series" Isn't Real Trek?
chromedog wrote: That's just Saru.
He's a Kelpien, not even a remotely saurian species. Also played by Doug Jones - no stranger to "non-human humanoid in prosthetics" roles.
Linus (the actual Saurian on the disco crew) is also an actor in a mask and prosthetics though.
Right. There was mention that nothing as tall/big as a Kizinti had been done before the fully cgi Gorn in Strange Worlds, and I said said Saru could have easily been done as one with furrier costuming.
2023/05/13 13:42:23
Subject: What's the substance of the argument that "Star Trek The Animated Series" Isn't Real Trek?
chromedog wrote: That's just Saru.
He's a Kelpien, not even a remotely saurian species. Also played by Doug Jones - no stranger to "non-human humanoid in prosthetics" roles.
Linus (the actual Saurian on the disco crew) is also an actor in a mask and prosthetics though.
I think the point is a tall actor in make up can pull off the Tzinti (sp?) without CGI.
Stilts are also a thing that exist. The Alien was a practical costume for the first 2 or 3 films.
2023/05/13 13:56:23
Subject: What's the substance of the argument that "Star Trek The Animated Series" Isn't Real Trek?
chromedog wrote: That's just Saru.
He's a Kelpien, not even a remotely saurian species. Also played by Doug Jones - no stranger to "non-human humanoid in prosthetics" roles.
Linus (the actual Saurian on the disco crew) is also an actor in a mask and prosthetics though.
I think the point is a tall actor in make up can pull off the Tzinti (sp?) without CGI.
Stilts are also a thing that exist. The Alien was a practical costume for the first 2 or 3 films.
The Werewolves in the Vamps vs Lichens movie I’m forgetting the name of had practical effects with some really cool digitigrade leg stilts.
2023/05/16 13:05:57
Subject: What's the substance of the argument that "Star Trek The Animated Series" Isn't Real Trek?
AduroT wrote: I would say the first officer on Discover would count as predating the Gorn, and they weren’t even the full cgi. Different makeup could have easily made them a cat instead of what we got.
I'll take your word for it, as I didn't watch that show much, but I'm curious, have you got a link?
Very cool!
First, all means to conciliate; failing that, all means to crush.
