Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I always assume that this fight (the one on the tabletop) is just a slice if a larger battle, and that the marines, Custodes, etc have just restocked before turn 1 at a supply drop/FoB/etc.

If you want to ask about units that lack ammunition, look at the vehicles of the Imperial Guard and Imperial Knights. I'm not even sure how the Rapid Fire Battle Cannon reloads.

In all honesty, this whole thing reminds me of the BattleTech forums where debates have raged for (a very long time) over the tiniest of (non) realistic details.

To rap up my rambling, if it bothers you about ammo, slap a bunch of ammo pouches and grenades on your guys. I've seen it done, and it looks pretty cool.

If I could find me a clean mold cast or .STL of a bolter magazine, I'd have a production line going and gluing those things to the bottom lip of pauldrons like it was a bandolier.

Wouldn't even need to 'overload' a marine in ammo. Normal IRL soldiers get like 210 rounds standard issue, if I remember right. A pauldron wrap or two of ammo would be a respectable amount. Get you like 5 magazines per pauldron, so with 20-30 round mags, you'd have 100-150 rounds a pauldron. Put it on both, you'd get 200-300 rounds. And with a space marine's accuracy, that's probably 200-300 additional dead enemies per space marine. Plus that bit of weight probably wouldn't effect a marine in combat too much, giving their natural strength and power armors power supply to begin with.

That sounds pretty lore accurate to a space marines 'army of one' status. Or as accurate as 40k lore can be.

Actually you can head to the lastest pages of the firearm thread of Dakka as we were discussing standard loads a little while ago

The problem though is that the weapon models are oversized, and therefore the ammo containers are also oversized. Bolter mags for Marines should be proportionally about the same as modern assault rifle mags for modern humans. They should be able to easily slot 6 on some kind of chest rig.

However, with the models if you actually try that, then either the chest rig is the size of a house, or the mags don't look like they would fit. Either way leads to some kind of compromise, as does not depicting them on the model.

 Flinty wrote:
The problem though is that the weapon models are oversized, and therefore the ammo containers are also oversized. Bolter mags for Marines should be proportionally about the same as modern assault rifle mags for modern humans. They should be able to easily slot 6 on some kind of chest rig.

However, with the models if you actually try that, then either the chest rig is the size of a house, or the mags don't look like they would fit. Either way leads to some kind of compromise, as does not depicting them on the model.

Yeah, I think the "heroic" proportions are the big issue from a model perspective. 6 mags and some loose rounds in a pouch should be entirely feasible in the lore. Even terminators carry reloads for storm bolters and assault cannon (according to Space Hulk).

Which reminds me I meant to go find the Space Hulk booklet as it definitely touches on how Marine logistics support sustained offensive operations. In this case, supporting an expanding cordon of Terminators with a space hulk whilst strike teams conduct specific missions of import before retirning to rearm.

From memory, there are ammo dump and repair stations just behind the frontline manned by techmarines.

 tauist wrote:

I always envision marines also being such good shots that they fire single shots most of the time. So 20-30 kills per clip. BL book depictions of spraying the air with bolt slugs might sound cinematic and all, but that ish has no room in my head canon. Also, with power armour and all, marines dont need to lay down as much "covering fire" as humans fighting conventional battles would (AFAIK, most ammo in conventional skirmish is wasted as suppression/cover fire innit)

The Astartes amination definitively has one shot one kill.

One of the deathwatch books has them establishing ammo dumps along axis of retreat.

The_Real_Chris wrote:

 tauist wrote:

I always envision marines also being such good shots that they fire single shots most of the time. So 20-30 kills per clip. BL book depictions of spraying the air with bolt slugs might sound cinematic and all, but that ish has no room in my head canon. Also, with power armour and all, marines dont need to lay down as much "covering fire" as humans fighting conventional battles would (AFAIK, most ammo in conventional skirmish is wasted as suppression/cover fire innit)

The Astartes amination definitively has one shot one kill.

One of the deathwatch books has them establishing ammo dumps along axis of retreat.

I prefer the lore where the default Marine boltgun setting is four round burst. I think that would give a higher kill likelihood for most enemies.

I dunno, on the other hand, I like to think of marine splacing well aimed single shots an stuff. Feels more elite and composed to me. While only switching to full auto if the need arises, but otherwise being able to fire multiple well aimed semi auto rounds at transhuman speed sounds epic to me.

They only spray ammo when the camera are rolling.

You don't say, is that a Dark crusade cut scene ref lol?

 Maréchal des Logis Walter wrote:
You don't say, is that a Dark crusade cut scene ref lol?

Could be

For terminators in particular, it’s less about carrying capacity, and more about the practical impediments to being able to pick up a reload and manipulate it into the weapon, given the restrictions of the size of power fist fingers, and limited range of movement.

If we want to get technical, how does a Knights rapid fire battle Cannon reload?

At a depot, post battle.

Battlecannon, like Autocannon, seems more a broad descriptive of a solid ammo calibre and battlefield role than particularly specific arms.

 Flinty wrote:
For terminators in particular, it’s less about carrying capacity, and more about the practical impediments to being able to pick up a reload and manipulate it into the weapon, given the restrictions of the size of power fist fingers, and limited range of movement.

Given they do it in lore, it seems to be something that can be overcome via sufficient training for those with terminator honours.

 Maréchal des Logis Walter wrote:
I dunno, on the other hand, I like to think of marine splacing well aimed single shots an stuff. Feels more elite and composed to me. While only switching to full auto if the need arises, but otherwise being able to fire multiple well aimed semi auto rounds at transhuman speed sounds epic to me.

The problem is that the level of OTT ness required to be 100% accurate with your shots is beyond the pale, not just a bit exaggerated. The amount of bullets fired per casualty caused in real warfare is astronomical, the only ones that get close to 1:1 are snipers who are set up to maximise it.

No matter how accurate, composed and protected they are, it is beyond unreal to have it be a 1:1 ratio. I'm fine with marines being uber soldiers, but there is a limit, or you might as well just say marines win when deployed, game over the end.

And we also know that there are plenty of warriors, alien and otherwise who are just as skilled or moreso than marines, so you're requiring a whole swathe of 40k to be 1:1 shotting everyone.

Think about this, how many times to you shoot with Marines in a game? Max if you rapid fire twice is 10 shots.

Slap on a second mag and he fits the game perfectly.

With apologies to Ace Attorney, but…

ABSTRACTION!

 Hellebore wrote:

 Maréchal des Logis Walter wrote:
I dunno, on the other hand, I like to think of marine splacing well aimed single shots an stuff. Feels more elite and composed to me. While only switching to full auto if the need arises, but otherwise being able to fire multiple well aimed semi auto rounds at transhuman speed sounds epic to me.

The problem is that the level of OTT ness required to be 100% accurate with your shots is beyond the pale, not just a bit exaggerated. The amount of bullets fired per casualty caused in real warfare is astronomical, the only ones that get close to 1:1 are snipers who are set up to maximise it.

No matter how accurate, composed and protected they are, it is beyond unreal to have it be a 1:1 ratio. I'm fine with marines being uber soldiers, but there is a limit, or you might as well just say marines win when deployed, game over the end.

And we also know that there are plenty of warriors, alien and otherwise who are just as skilled or moreso than marines, so you're requiring a whole swathe of 40k to be 1:1 shotting everyone.

Lol, yeah.

And they only hit on a 3 to start with.

 Flinty wrote:
With apologies to Ace Attorney, but…

ABSTRACTION!

This x1000.

There's shots you don't roll for, there are mags you don't see, and there's a lot more going on in-universe then the tabletop representation that we have.

What do I win? Oh, they didn't like my reply...

Does anyone here remember the old days with tourney WYSIWYG, where poor guys were gluing frag grenades to every model they had?

I'm glad we don't live in that world anymore.

 Lathe Biosas wrote:
What do I win? Oh, they didn't like my reply...

Does anyone here remember the old days with tourney WYSIWYG, where poor guys were gluing frag grenades to every model they had?

I'm glad we don't live in that world anymore.

Says you. I've got grenades on every model

I'm still trying to figure out where the melta bombs go on HH Custodes...

Found a bit of information in Imperial Armour volume 2 regarding Thunderhawk transporters:


So there are dedicated supply pods that can be dropped into foward operating bases by Thunderhawk transporters.

 Hellebore wrote:

 Maréchal des Logis Walter wrote:
I dunno, on the other hand, I like to think of marine splacing well aimed single shots an stuff. Feels more elite and composed to me. While only switching to full auto if the need arises, but otherwise being able to fire multiple well aimed semi auto rounds at transhuman speed sounds epic to me.

The problem is that the level of OTT ness required to be 100% accurate with your shots is beyond the pale, not just a bit exaggerated. The amount of bullets fired per casualty caused in real warfare is astronomical, the only ones that get close to 1:1 are snipers who are set up to maximise it.

No matter how accurate, composed and protected they are, it is beyond unreal to have it be a 1:1 ratio. I'm fine with marines being uber soldiers, but there is a limit, or you might as well just say marines win when deployed, game over the end.

And we also know that there are plenty of warriors, alien and otherwise who are just as skilled or moreso than marines, so you're requiring a whole swathe of 40k to be 1:1 shotting everyone.

That I know very well, I mean, in army training.

However, you miss several points I believe:

Marines are supposed to be absurd. 40k IS beyond unreal

Having a method a placing all shots because you are transhuman to insane levels doesn't mean the target can't survive the first or that some elements can't disturb the shot and make it miss nonetheless.

Stating that Marines, seeing how absurdly OP they are, would actually lend themselves quite well to that method of shooting doesn't mean that they CAN'T use other methods if this is the better option.

You miss the abstraction part.

All in all, I disagree

I think the single-shot doctrine would make sense while fighting humans, gaunts, and other fragile but numerous enemies. The low chance of them surviving a bolter round to the chest matters less than the risk of running out of ammo halfway through the mission.

For orks, genestealers, and so on they'd probably switch to four-shot burst (or full auto if it looks like they might close into melee).

Against humans in particular, you’ve also very much got psychology on the side of the Astartes.

Not only are they physically intimidating foes to fight, and in the heat of the moment seemingly invulnerable? But one by one your squad mates are detonating around you, or being shredded by chain weapons wielded with brutally efficiency by a 7’ demigod.

For your average Cultist or Rebel? Thats gonna do your fighting spirit absolutely no favours, as casualties are going to be horrendously one sided, at least on an engagement to engagement basis.

Based on novel depictions, your average cultist is too rabid or enveloped in the cult mind meld to care.

Depends how far gone they are.

Every Cult will have its nutters, that’s true. But not every Cultist is a nutter. And as Cain says? The nutters do have a rather gratifying penchant for just running into your line of fire.

And it’s not like even the nutters are going to do a great deal beyond go “splat” against Astartes. Which is only going to demoralise the less nutty Cultists even further.

Think the contemptuous ease of Thor in the opening scenes of The Dark World. Because nobody enjoys seeing their vaunted champions defeated with ease.

Till the lascannon vaporises the Marine, at least. Or the Meltagun, or the myriad of other weapons available.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Against humans in particular, you’ve also very much got psychology on the side of the Astartes.

Not only are they physically intimidating foes to fight, and in the heat of the moment seemingly invulnerable? But one by one your squad mates are detonating around you, or being shredded by chain weapons wielded with brutally efficiency by a 7’ demigod.

For your average Cultist or Rebel? Thats gonna do your fighting spirit absolutely no favours, as casualties are going to be horrendously one sided, at least on an engagement to engagement basis.

Don’t forget that they can just run through you.