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Frazzled wrote:Thats why it is the duty of Christians to bring the Word to them, both in action, and word.

Frazzled... I agree that action and words should be the duty... but who's interpretation of what is right should we follow? What actions and words should we follow?

Westboro Baptist Church will tell you some pretty extreme stuff... Should we listen to these people? (IMHO... HELL NO) Should we listen to the people that tell you on national TV that the Katrina incident was God Punishing the wrong?

Should we teach in our schools creationism because thats what some bishops tell their clergy to preach?

My point is that you can't make blanket statements and expect each person to have your vision of what is right and what is wrong...

Note I am not saying here that anyone is right or wrong... except maybe the westboro baptist church... I am simply saying you should have some doubt as to what is the "right thing"

I'm going to end with a quote...
“When we talk about values, I think of rationality in solving problems. That’s something I value. Fairness, kindness, generosity, tolerance. When they talk about values, they’re talking about things like going to church, voting for Bush, being loyal to Jesus, praying. These are not values.”
--Bill Maher

frgsinwntr wrote:

Frazzled wrote:Thats why it is the duty of Christians to bring the Word to them, both in action, and word.

Frazzled... I agree that action and words should be the duty... but who's interpretation of what is right should we follow? What actions and words should we follow?

Westboro Baptist Church will tell you some pretty extreme stuff... Should we listen to these people? (IMHO... HELL NO) Should we listen to the people that tell you on national TV that the Katrina incident was God Punishing the wrong?

Should we teach in our schools creationism because thats what some bishops tell their clergy to preach?

My point is that you can't make blanket statements and expect each person to have your vision of what is right and what is wrong...

Note I am not saying here that anyone is right or wrong... except maybe the westboro baptist church... I am simply saying you should have some doubt as to what is the "right thing"

I'm going to end with a quote...
“When we talk about values, I think of rationality in solving problems. That’s something I value. Fairness, kindness, generosity, tolerance. When they talk about values, they’re talking about things like going to church, voting for Bush, being loyal to Jesus, praying. These are not values.”
--Bill Maher

You're fogging the question/answer with subjective stuff thats not relevant to the question asked. The poster asked-what about regions where there is not Christianity. Answer-it is the duty of Christians to bring Christianity to those regions. Thats part of the stated duty of a Christian. I am sure many, if not most religions have a similar duty for their members. Preach the word Brother Rabbit. Its not relevant that there are many sects fo Christianity-they all strive to bring their word to the unheeled (ok some do, some practice the method of breeding new members, some just kind of fade like the Anglicans).

Does anyone have contact to Jehovas Witnesses?
Is it true that in their belief, there's a certain limit of people who can get into paradise, which is why everyone's working so hard in their community?

Frazzeled... That is the same arguement Muslims use... It is their Duty to Covert others, at sword point if neccessary (yes I had a class or two in the topic of religion). Are the two religions all that different?

The same argument was most likely made to Zorastrians when they were converted... (http://zoreled.org/historyzorislamiciran.aspx)

No I am not fogging the question. I am simply asking what is this message? where did it come from? What Values are we talking about when we bring the message there? Are they really values at all?

I was under the impression the Jobo's believe once they reach a certain number, the Rapture will occur and all good Jobo's (thinking this might actually be the Mormons you know) will go to Heaven, and nobody else will.

frgsinwntr wrote:Frazzeled... That is the same arguement Muslims use... It is their Duty to Covert others, at sword point if neccessary (yes I had a class or two in the topic of religion).

No I am not fogging the question. I am simply asking what is this message? where did it come from? What Values are we talking about when we bring the message there? Are they really values at all?

It is their duty to convert others. It is against Christian ethos to convert by the sword-its against everything being a Christian is about.

I'm off.

Frazzled wrote:

It is their duty to convert others. It is against Christian ethos to convert by the sword-its against everything being a Christian is about.

I'm off.

I'm not here to Frustrate you. I've had 12 years of Catholic school and spent many summers doing my fair share of reading up.

Mat 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
Mat 28:20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age."

Some would argue that the first line doesn't explicitly say to convert people at all costs but means it (some friends of mine and as mad doc said... Spanish Inquisition?).... But at the same time... In fact Some in the Muslim religion (also friends of mine) say the sword point doesn't physically mean sword!

What if I don't want to be converted? Do you have the right to come to me and try to convert me? What if I come to you and try to convert you to FSMism? would you be upset?

Frazzled wrote:

frgsinwntr wrote:Frazzeled... That is the same arguement Muslims use... It is their Duty to Covert others, at sword point if neccessary (yes I had a class or two in the topic of religion).

No I am not fogging the question. I am simply asking what is this message? where did it come from? What Values are we talking about when we bring the message there? Are they really values at all?

It is their duty to convert others. It is against Christian ethos to convert by the sword-its against everything being a Christian is about.

I'm off.

Guess the Spanish Inquisition and the various Crusaders missed that bit.

Anung Un Rama wrote:Does anyone have contact to Jehovas Witnesses?
Is it true that in their belief, there's a certain limit of people who can get into paradise, which is why everyone's working so hard in their community?

Yeah, I don't remember the exact number though. I think it is 400,000 or 125,000 people. Something like that.

Checking some sources it is 144,000. I remembered 100k and the number 4 were involved, so I guess that is something.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

frgsinwntr wrote:Frazzeled... That is the same arguement Muslims use... It is their Duty to Covert others, at sword point if neccessary (yes I had a class or two in the topic of religion).

No I am not fogging the question. I am simply asking what is this message? where did it come from? What Values are we talking about when we bring the message there? Are they really values at all?

It is their duty to convert others. It is against Christian ethos to convert by the sword-its against everything being a Christian is about.

I'm off.

Guess the Spanish Inquisition and the various Crusaders missed that bit.

Uhh, someone going against the teachings of their religion while preaching it doesn't mean the teachings get overwritten or don't matter.

Unless you were stating the obvious, then you can just ignore this post

Yes and no.

I just cannot help but notice that The Word of God has traditionally been violently enforced upon the peoples of the world. Spanish Conquitadors are another example.

Given that, I don't put much stock in the teachings if they are so easily ignored with no punishment. I'd imagine God would be somewhat pissed off by now, the atrocities performed in his name....

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Yes and no.

I just cannot help but notice that The Word of God has traditionally been violently enforced upon the peoples of the world. Spanish Conquitadors are another example.

Given that, I don't put much stock in the teachings if they are so easily ignored with no punishment. I'd imagine God would be somewhat pissed off by now, the atrocities performed in his name....

I completely agree with you on that, but the fact that Christians follow Christ, who taught us to love everyone (not just people we like), that would make not attacking innocent people a very important pillar of the faith.

You are right that once enough people think the teachings mean something else, the teachings actually change in the eyes of others, but once that happens, I hope the real Christians will break away and form their own group that still pays attention to what Jesus had to say.

frgsinwntr wrote:Frazzeled... That is the same arguement Muslims use... It is their Duty to Covert others, at sword point if neccessary (yes I had a class or two in the topic of religion). Are the two religions all that different?

If that’s all you were taught then it was a pretty crappy class. The real message, like in all faiths, a complicated and often seemingly contradictory one. The ‘sword’ has been argued to not mean a literal sword. Now, all of that wouldn’t amount to much if the Koran didn’t also spend a hell of a lot of time talking about peace.

Like Christianity, it’s complicated and can’t be summed up by a literal reading of a single sentence here or there.

sebster wrote:

frgsinwntr wrote:Frazzeled... That is the same arguement Muslims use... It is their Duty to Covert others, at sword point if neccessary (yes I had a class or two in the topic of religion). Are the two religions all that different?

If that’s all you were taught then it was a pretty crappy class. The real message, like in all faiths, a complicated and often seemingly contradictory one. The ‘sword’ has been argued to not mean a literal sword. Now, all of that wouldn’t amount to much if the Koran didn’t also spend a hell of a lot of time talking about peace.

Like Christianity, it’s complicated and can’t be summed up by a literal reading of a single sentence here or there.

Did you read my later post where I said that too? I apologize I did not relay all of the information I learned in a semester in a single post! I'll be sure to do that next time instead of relaying only the information I need to make my point. (how silly of me!)

But seriously. Stop trying to attack me instead of my arguments. Ad hominem is beneath us.

God Of Yams wrote:

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Yes and no.

I just cannot help but notice that The Word of God has traditionally been violently enforced upon the peoples of the world. Spanish Conquitadors are another example.

Given that, I don't put much stock in the teachings if they are so easily ignored with no punishment. I'd imagine God would be somewhat pissed off by now, the atrocities performed in his name....

I completely agree with you on that, but the fact that Christians follow Christ, who taught us to love everyone (not just people we like), that would make not attacking innocent people a very important pillar of the faith.

You are right that once enough people think the teachings mean something else, the teachings actually change in the eyes of others, but once that happens, I hope the real Christians will break away and form their own group that still pays attention to what Jesus had to say.

The real question is what are the pillars of faith? where are these defined? What makes your interpretation of what "God meant" any better than the interpretation of the westboro Baptist church? How do you know for sure Jesus wanted things to be peaceful? See where my argument is in doubting what we think?

frgsinwntr wrote:Did you read my later post where I said that too? I apologize I did not relay all of the information I learned in a semester in a single post! I'll be sure to do that next time instead of relaying only the information I need to make my point. (how silly of me!)

But seriously. Stop trying to attack me instead of my arguments. Ad hominem is beneath us.

Yeah, that first line in my post was way too aggressive. My apologies.

No Prob. I will agree. The real message is extremely complicated and we can't really assume any one person has the idea right... As soon as we do this, we've stopped thinking. THAT is dangerous in my mind...

I took a step back about 20 pages ago, because I didn't want to usurp the entire thread. But I feel it's time to jump back into the fray.

First of all Christians don't convert people. It's the Holy Spirit that convicts humans and draws them to himself. Christians are just word bearers "lights on the hill". The minute a Christian takes it upon themselves to go about converting people, they verge on usurping the job of the Holy Spirit and entering into "trying to do things themselves". This is one reason why you have things like inquisitions and crusades. People thought they had the "duty" to convert other people to the faith instead of letting God do it. Not to mention all the other reasons(theft, power, money,corruption).

God's will is going to be done regardless of what we want, we as humans just mess things up when we try to do God's job for Him.

Also I have seen some references to scripture. Again you have to be real carefull when you start quoting scripture so that you allow scripture to interpret itself. Or you can very quickly get yourselves into trouble.

For example, some people dance around poisonous snakes during their Church services because they take the Bible out of context, where Mark 16:18 says" They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover."

GG

frgsinwntr wrote:
The real question is what are the pillars of faith? where are these defined? What makes your interpretation of what "God meant" any better than the interpretation of the westboro Baptist church? How do you know for sure Jesus wanted things to be peaceful? See where my argument is in doubting what we think?

What are the pillars of faith? By that, do you mean how does a person decide what to believe in? Well, you take a pretty decent swing. There's no shortage of revealed texts that describe god. personally, I think they're all pretty good, although I think that the morality preached by Jesus in the Gospels is one of the more human and useful ones.

As for interpretations, you read, you read some annotations, you talk to experts, you think about it, and you come up with your belief. Most people stop there, but others try to convert others to their view.

Choosing a faith is really just the same process as rejecting faith. Atheists, agnostics, and theists are all faced with the same facts, the same world, and all reach different conclusions based on themselves. You can attribute it to a spiritual awakening or god speaking to you (if a believer) or a realization or the end of a logical thought (if atheist), but we all make decisions in what to believe.

One of the reasons there are some many religions is that there are some many cultures and types of people, and different people see god in different ways.

Golden Eyed Scout wrote:Turtle Pie is the one true religon!

Not cool! I really do enjoy making puns and photoshops in already doomed and pointless threads, but this one is very interesting and incredibly calm and on topic and really doesn't deserve something like this.

And that's coming from a saint of Turtle Pie, please desist...

"Thats why it is the duty of Christians to bring the Word to them, both in action, and word."

That's interesting. I find the post above highly insulting. Will it be deleted and followed up with a brusque PM, as mine was?

Anung Un Rama wrote:Does anyone have contact to Jehovas Witnesses?
Is it true that in their belief, there's a certain limit of people who can get into paradise, which is why everyone's working so hard in their community?

The limit of people they believe that are allowed into heaven has long since been surpassed.

Because of that, all current Jehovah's witnesses believe that once the 2nd coming occurs god will wipe all people from the earth and at that point those who died as good Jehovah's Witnesses (but didn't get into heaven because of the limit) will then be resurrected from the dead to live eternally on earth.

kged wrote:"Thats why it is the duty of Christians to bring the Word to them, both in action, and word."

That's interesting. I find the post above highly insulting. Will it be deleted and followed up with a brusque PM, as mine was?

Nope. Adults are discussing things here. Feel free to leave in a huff, never to return.

I will leave, with some reluctance; I was beginning to rather enjoy this site, but I don't care to be demeaned, particularly not by a bigot. Feel free to call that a huff if you wish, although I'm not sure your claims to adulthood have been strongly supported by your conduct here. Keep practising your modding - I'm sure you'll pick it up eventually.

Excellent. As my dad used to say "Don't let the door hit your on the way out."

Guess the Spanish Inquisition and the various Crusaders missed that bit.

Yep. But remember MDG. No one expects the Spanish Inquisition!

What if I don't want to be converted? Do you have the right to come to me and try to convert me? What if I come to you and try to convert you to FSMism? would you be upset?

Thats what doors are for. Close them. You don't have to listen.


if that doesn't work there's always

Nice to see some entertaining mod-fu. Nothing as dreary as a locked thread.

So, does Dakka has specific terms on blasphemy?

I recall in recent news, the debate regarding the restriction of 'blasphemous' publications vs. free speech came up. There has been a bit of this since Rushdie's Ye Olde Book of Fun. The Vatican's stance was that blasphemy against any religion should absolutely be protected under rights to free speech. It seems like a bit of politic-fu, as an established sect, to mandate the verbal discrimination of their 'competitors' (since now it's clearly a "collect 'em all" game). It's just as much of a power play to bring in such restrictions, and I generally err towards the preservation of the unintruded right to have rights.

Arctik_Firangi wrote:Nice to see some entertaining mod-fu. Nothing as dreary as a locked thread.

So, does Dakka has specific terms on blasphemy?

I recall in recent news, the debate regarding the restriction of 'blasphemous' publications vs. free speech came up. There has been a bit of this since Rushdie's Ye Olde Book of Fun. The Vatican's stance was that blasphemy against any religion should absolutely be protected under rights to free speech. It seems like a bit of politic-fu, as an established sect, to mandate the verbal discrimination of their 'competitors' (since now it's clearly a "collect 'em all" game). It's just as much of a power play to bring in such restrictions, and I generally err towards the preservation of the unintruded right to have rights.

In reverse order: I'd save the blasphemy issue for a separate thread as its, its own involved topic but to each his own.

Dakka blasphemies: (sorry most humorous I could do in the morning-this needs its own thread and better writers)
-Thou shalt not make fun of Sean Connery
-Thou shalt not attempt to challenge Frazzled to a "crotchetiest old man competition." Thou shalt not make fun of Frazzled incredibly bad typing.
-Thou shalt make fun of the French, unless of course you're French and take exception, in which case we have to remind you of the awesomeness of French women.
-Thou shalt not take thineself or the intranets too seriously.
-Thou shalt not let Malf have your socks.
-Thou shalt not put the WC, Two Heads Talking, JD12120, Sebster, HMBC/HBMC, and JohnHwang in the same arena, unless thou hast coconut butter cooked popcorn of course.
-Thou shalt translate what Mad Doc Grostnik says for the Frazzled, as he does not have a clue what MDG is typing half the time.
-Thou shalt not overuse the reporting button, nor shalt thou underuse it.
and of course:
-Thous shalt not speak ill of Texas and more importantly Tex/Mex! Mmmm fajitas....

Thou shalt translate what Mad Doc Grostnik says for the Frazzled, as he does not have a clue what MDG is typing half the time.

In fairness neither does he.

Frazzled wrote:

What if I don't want to be converted? Do you have the right to come to me and try to convert me? What if I come to you and try to convert you to FSMism? would you be upset?

Thats what doors are for. Close them. You don't have to listen.

I'm glad you brought this up! This attitude is really what starts wars. Yes you are right, you don't have to listen, but at the same time if you shut out other opinions or needs or concerns you hurt feelings. We know human beings (a good bunch of them anyway)at their core make decisions based on emotion. Yes you can shut the door to hide from the bad man who dissagrees with you, but should you really shut your mind also?

If I said:
"I found Published information on the fact that our planter was formed at the will of a flying spaggheti monster. It was passed down orally for generations before someone wrote it down on the internet. "

You would consider me crazy and a danger to society.... but then If I told you I beleived that a woman became pregnant for no reason by a ghost and that he died on a cross and rose from the dead (much like a zombie?) you would think me less crazy.

My point: You can't shut the door on one idea and expect others to convert to your idea simply because you think it makes more sense.

And I am going ot assume the "get off my lawn" comment was not directed at me as that would be offensive and child like.

reds8n wrote:

Thou shalt translate what Mad Doc Grostnik says for the Frazzled, as he does not have a clue what MDG is typing half the time.

In fairness neither does he.

Pshwa! I always know what I've written!

Now, to go and crimp of a length on Frazzled's neatly manicured lawn.