Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

yakface wrote:

Anung Un Rama wrote:Does anyone have contact to Jehovas Witnesses?
Is it true that in their belief, there's a certain limit of people who can get into paradise, which is why everyone's working so hard in their community?

The limit of people they believe that are allowed into heaven has long since been surpassed.

Because of that, all current Jehovah's witnesses believe that once the 2nd coming occurs god will wipe all people from the earth and at that point those who died as good Jehovah's Witnesses (but didn't get into heaven because of the limit) will then be resurrected from the dead to live eternally on earth.

To be quite honest: that sounds like they took the easy way out. Who made that decission? Is there someone who's in charge of all JWs? Or at least in theory, a witness-pope if you will. To me this looks like one of the following things happened:
1.) God came down to earth to tell all the JWs that he changed the rules.
2.) Whoever is in charge of the Witnesses noticed that it won't work like that forever, so he changed it to keep the people flowing in.
I don't want to flame/troll anyone with this, but as said before, I have problems with "organized" religions and this just seems weird to me.

frgsinwntr wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

What if I don't want to be converted? Do you have the right to come to me and try to convert me? What if I come to you and try to convert you to FSMism? would you be upset?

Thats what doors are for. Close them. You don't have to listen.

I'm glad you brought this up! This attitude is really what starts wars. Yes you are right, you don't have to listen, but at the same time if you shut out other opinions or needs or concerns you hurt feelings. We know human beings (a good bunch of them anyway)at their core make decisions based on emotion. Yes you can shut the door to hide from the bad man who dissagrees with you, but should you really shut your mind also?

If I said:
"I found Published information on the fact that our planter was formed at the will of a flying spaggheti monster. It was passed down orally for generations before someone wrote it down on the internet. "

You would consider me crazy and a danger to society.... but then If I told you I beleived that a woman became pregnant for no reason by a ghost and that he died on a cross and rose from the dead (much like a zombie?) you would think me less crazy.

My point: You can't shut the door on one idea and expect others to convert to your idea simply because you think it makes more sense.

But maybe people who "shut that door" aren't interested in any other ideas or in other people learning about it. Maybe the guy who shuts the door in front of a Christian who wants to bring him word, is a Jew or a Muslim. What would he do? Either try to talk to the christian to bring him his version of the word or just leave him alone and with, leave him to never enter "paradise" unless someone else bothers to "convert" him.

Frazzled wrote:Thats why it is the duty of Christians to bring the Word to them, both in action, and word.

This kind of bothers me. It implies that Christianity is the only way which will get you into paradise. But if I were a member of another religion, say Islam for the sake of argument, I would be offended by someone who thinks that I'm damned to whatever if I don't acknowledge and take part in his way of life.


I want to add that I have nothing against one Religion in particular, if use the Islam too often, or something like that, it's just because I can't think of any other examples.

This attitude is really what starts wars.

Respectfully-no.
1. You asked what do other people do if they don’t want to hear the message. My response is-fine don’t hear the message.
2. Now you’re confusing me (that’s like depressing teenager so easy!). One the one hand you’re saying what about people who don’t want to hear the message-don’t bother them. On the other hand you are saying my view that they can take it or leave it starts wars. Wait? What? Its freedom of speech. I have the right to speech. You habve the right to speech. Part of your right to free speech is that my freedom ends at your nose. You don’t have to listen to my noise, and I don’t have to listen to your noise.

I found Published information on the fact that our planter was formed at the will of a flying spaggheti monster.

Sorry you’re wrong there, as I ate the spaghetti monster Tuesday with meatballs and milk, followed later by coconut rum and water. Your planter never had a chance

Now, to go and crimp of a length on Frazzled's neatly manicured lawn.

I always feel like there’s an ork on the other end - very appropriate crazy ork = drunken soccer hooligan scot!

Sorry you’re wrong there, as I ate the spaghetti monster Tuesday with meatballs and milk, followed later by coconut rum and water. Your planter never had a chance

I'm Deeply offended!

If I said this about your religion. I would be Banned/warned/yelled at. How is this fair? Example... someone here said something bad about the bible and got warned and told to get off their lawn... I'm sorry Frazzled... but you're not being an impartial mod here...

Yes, christians believe it a duty to act like "a living gospel", I for one am horrible at that.

Not many people know this, but many people in Africa are converting to catholicism<---Hard to say in real life. Also, 99.9% of Mexico is catholic because of the spanish and America is a nice mix, mostly Lutheren/protestant with some catholics(mainly hispanic or irish).

The crusades, inquisition, terrorists, church burnings are all examples of fanatical religion or the peversion of religion by man. Although I've never seen a buddhist or hindu attack a church, I've seen atheists, homosexuals, muslims, christians, and such all attack each other.

Look at the reformation in europe. The inquisition killed those who were heretics while protestants and lutherens lynched catholics in france and germany.

Hitler also killed most religious groups, not just jews. The only reason why he didn't go overboard with catholics was because of Mussolini. Any religion Hitler hated were peaceful according to gospel.

Jesus was asked by his disciples to burn down a city that wouldn't let them in. To which he replied no. The whole "Whoever is without sin may cast the first stone."rule applies to most christians and I'm positive its in the other religious texts as well, but the Torah, Quran, and Bible are all really long and I get bored.

As to the whole paradise thing, I believe that most will get in even if they don't believe in god. As long as they are a good person I think they get a little leeway.

halonachos wrote:
The crusades, inquisition, terrorists, church burnings are all examples of fanatical religion or the peversion of religion by man. Although I've never seen a buddhist or hindu attack a church, I've seen atheists, homosexuals, muslims, christians, and such all attack each other.

To be fair, Buddhist/hinduism have had their share of wars also if you study their history.

frgsinwntr wrote:

Sorry you’re wrong there, as I ate the spaghetti monster Tuesday with meatballs and milk, followed later by coconut rum and water. Your planter never had a chance

If I said this about your religion. I would be Banned/warned/yelled at. How is this fair? Example... someone here said something bad about the bible and got warned and told to get off their lawn... I'm sorry Frazzled... but you're not being an impartial mod here...

He was talking about a flying spaghetti monster here, but who drinks milk with pasta? Then not only that but you go and drink rum later, that is not good. Most pastas deserve a red or white wine, or a soft drink.

halonachos wrote:

frgsinwntr wrote:

Sorry you’re wrong there, as I ate the spaghetti monster Tuesday with meatballs and milk, followed later by coconut rum and water. Your planter never had a chance

If I said this about your religion. I would be Banned/warned/yelled at. How is this fair? Example... someone here said something bad about the bible and got warned and told to get off their lawn... I'm sorry Frazzled... but you're not being an impartial mod here...

He was talking about a flying spaghetti monster here, but who drinks milk with pasta? Then not only that but you go and drink rum later, that is not good. Most pastas deserve a red or white wine, or a soft drink.

I've already said I believe in the flying spaghetti monster. I see no reason why this should be ridiculed again? How is this any different then your beliefs?

Not trying to kill the discussion, just making a point.

Hmmm... good question. I think has something to do with carbs.

I've never really heard of any wars about religion regarding the buddhists and hindus, genocides sure, but never any wars over religion.

I was just going at the fact of people who have killed because of religion only.

halonachos wrote:Hmmm... good question. I think has something to do with carbs.

I've never really heard of any wars about religion regarding the buddhists and hindus, genocides sure, but never any wars over religion.

I was just going at the fact of people who have killed because of religion only.

It's too bad that they never had the chance to be touched by his Noodly appendage :(

Sup guys.

I just made god into a sandwich and ate him for lunch. He was delicious.

Now everyone's even.

Orkeosaurus wrote:Sup guys.

I just made god into a sandwich and ate him for lunch. He was delicious.

Now everyone's even.

To be honest Orkeosaurus... I am not upset at all. I'm just surprised that a Mod would so easily scorn another member for doing the same exact thing he did himself. Seems Hypocritical.

Frazzled. If you are confused it is because I don't have a side to stand on. Nor Do I want one. I do not have a belief either way. I also honestly don't care. But I will always take the chance to point out Hypocracy when I see it.

Whether it is the postings of a MOD, other organization member(religious or not!), or even just myself.

To be fair, Buddhist/Hinduism have had their share of wars also if you study their history.

Islam invented crusades. Muslim Arabs are on a happy genocidal frenzy in Southern Sudan against Christians. Hindu/Muslim violence is still rampant. I’d better not explore this point too deeply.

He was talking about a flying spaghetti monster here, but who drinks milk with pasta? Then not only that but you go and drink rum later, that is not good. Most pastas deserve a red or white wine, or a soft drink.

I was out of wine. Sometimes you have to do what you have to do.

If I said this about your religion. I would be Banned/warned/yelled at. How is this fair? Example... someone here said something bad about the bible and got warned and told to get off their lawn... I'm sorry Frazzled... but you're not being an impartial mod here...

I’m offended that you’re offended! I have insulted the great Spaghetti Bowl! OMG someone reported me, and it wasn’t me! Oh wait you’re serious… and here I thought we were having a nice conversation. . Well that wraps it up for me on this thread, teach me to participate on a thread about religion. Why did I open this thread twice again?

I thought we were having a nice Conversation also :...(

Orkeosaurus wrote:Sup guys.

I just made god into a sandwich and ate him for lunch. He was delicious.

Now everyone's even.

Which god? The flying spaghetti monster or the ones that other people believe in?

Who puts spaghetti on a sandwich?

It was the regular god, of course!

Well, the FSM is different for three reasons, reasons that are of course self evident such that requesting their production is just being snotty:
1) the FSM is a internet meme/joke, and not a legitimate sect.
2) It's primary goal is to either show point out the difficulty in intelligent design; or more broadly to mock religion in general
3) As a religion, it has no history, no tradition, no gravitas, and therefore no wide acceptance. Build a church, elect a leader, develop scriptures, educate a priesthood, develop ritual, and hang around for longer than LolCats and then we'll talk.

People who want to max out their carbs of course!

Also, some people prefer god-lite.

Side note: I am tolerant, but don't push it. Oh hell, I don't care. I'm catholic, everyone thinks were evil. Like that corporation in "The Island" or like the guys in "The DaVinci Code". FOR THE LAST TIME, EVERY TIME I SIN I DO NOT WHIP MYSELF!!

I wish that I knew where religioso's got their faith from.

....the prospect of death and oblivion is terrifying to some people. (me)

I WISH I could be down with the G O D !

Pascal said just go to church, even if you don't believe you'll start to eventually. I think that's hilarious.

halonachos wrote:Pascal said just go to church, even if you don't believe you'll start to eventually. I think that's hilarious.

Like being brainwashed into a cult?

frgsinwntr wrote:



Frazzled. If you are confused it is because I don't have a side to stand on. Nor Do I want one. I do not have a belief either way. I also honestly don't care. But I will always take the chance to point out Hypocracy when I see it.

Whether it is the postings of a MOD, other organization member(religious or not!), or even just myself.

It would help if you first understand the definition of hypocrisy.

frgsinwntr wrote:To be fair, Buddhist/hinduism have had their share of wars also if you study their history.

The trick here is separating a peoples general religious make-up with cassus belli. Just being one or the other and being at war isn't enough to attribute to the religion. The United States didn't go to war with Japan in WWII because it was a Christian crusade anymore than Japan built the East Asian Co-prosperity Sphere and bombed Pearl Harbor to make a point about Buddhism. It isn't any more fair to blame Christians then it is Buddhists for government machinations and responses.

Frazzled wrote:

frgsinwntr wrote:

Frazzled. If you are confused it is because I don't have a side to stand on. Nor Do I want one. I do not have a belief either way. I also honestly don't care. But I will always take the chance to point out Hypocracy when I see it.

Whether it is the postings of a MOD, other organization member(religious or not!), or even just myself.

It would help if you first understand the definition of hypocrisy.

an expression of agreement that is not supported by real conviction.

Please refrain from personal attacks.

@ Polonious
What if I did believe it? How is that any different then believing in Jesus? History?

"3) As a religion, it has no history, no tradition, no gravitas, and therefore no wide acceptance. Build a church, elect a leader, develop scriptures, educate a priesthood, develop ritual, and hang around for longer than LolCats and then we'll talk."

Since when do these things deal with believing in a higher power? How are they important? Isn't this exactly what people who believe in jesus are against in the first place?

Anyways I think I am going to Get off the lawn now

Ahtman wrote:

frgsinwntr wrote:To be fair, Buddhist/hinduism have had their share of wars also if you study their history.

The trick here is separating a peoples general religious make-up with cassus belli. Just being one or the other and being at war isn't enough to attribute to the religion. The United States didn't go to war with Japan in WWII because it was a Christian crusade anymore than Japan built the East Asian Co-prosperity Sphere and bombed Pearl Harbor to make a point about Buddhism. It isn't any more fair to blame Christians then it is Buddhists for government machinations and responses.

Agreed. I was just pointing out to the poster I responded to that all religions have experienced their own wars.

frgsinwntr wrote:

Please refrain from personal attacks.

If you believe my questionaing your understanding of knowing the definition of hypocricy when you made up an on the spot belief in the speghetti monster vs. someone directly attacking a document revered by a billion people, and then get huffy when I joke about eating said speghetti monster, if you really believe this is a personal attack you might reconsider posting in the OT area.

EDIT: Appreciate the second report by the way. I'll leave it up for other mods so it will have an impartial review.

I just made god into a sandwich and ate him for lunch. He was delicious

With mayo or mustard? Was there bacon involved?

frgsinwntr wrote:

@ Polonious
What if I did believe it? How is that any different then believing in Jesus? History?

"3) As a religion, it has no history, no tradition, no gravitas, and therefore no wide acceptance. Build a church, elect a leader, develop scriptures, educate a priesthood, develop ritual, and hang around for longer than LolCats and then we'll talk."

Since when do these things deal with believing in a higher power? How are they important? Isn't this exactly what people who believe in jesus are against in the first place?

Anyways I think I am going to Get off the lawn now

Well, if you believe in him, than you do. Faith is unimpeachable, but respect for faith tends to come after it's time tested. It's really similar to the questions about what is a religion and what is a dangerous cult.

The third point I raised was one of three, and I'm assuming you're admitting the other two. The third was just gravy. There have always been advantages to posing as a relgion. Political protection, freedom from taxes, moral superiority, etc. Religions have been jealous in protecting their status, and weeding out imposters. Many of those trappings are part of the process.

Really though, it comes down to common sense. People of faith tend to have reasons for their faith: they were raised in it, they had a spiritual experience, they've been born again, etc. Now, if you were to speak of why you had belief in the FSM, and how it changed your life, and it looked serious and bona fide, then more people would take it as real. As it stands, everybody knows it was an internet fad that people use to mock religion.

L

Problem with that statement is that I could easily say 'Everyone knows God's just some fairy tale invented by rich people to keep the poor in line.' I won't though, that was for argument's sake. (Seriously, I'm not out to attack anyone here, and none of this post is intended to do so, or to be facetious, I'm trying to make a proper point. How well I'm doing that, well, YMMV)

The real problem when debating Pastafarianism is that in every sense it is as legitimate a faith as any other, the only ways to attack it are conjecture. There is scripture, there are set codes of belief, even holidays, the largest of the year being International Talk Like a Pirate Day.

For further reading: http://www.venganza.org/evidence/endorsements1/

Polonius wrote:
Really though, it comes down to common sense. People of faith tend to have reasons for their faith: they were raised in it, they had a spiritual experience, they've been born again, etc. Now, if you were to speak of why you had belief in the FSM, and how it changed your life, and it looked serious and bona fide, then more people would take it as real. As it stands, everybody knows it was an internet fad that people use to mock religion.
L

Or Use it to make a point. If you revere the bible for example and get angry when people "mock" it... then don't be upset when someone bombs an artist's home when they draw/publish a picture of the prophet mohamad. IMHO It is still the same reaction (a lot more extreme... but that really is a cultural thing)

You are correct polonius I don't believe in the FSM.

To quote Greebynog:
"The real problem when debating Pastafarianism is that in every sense it is as legitimate a faith as any other, the only ways to attack it are conjecture. There is scripture, there are set codes of belief, even holidays, the largest of the year being International Talk Like a Pirate Day."

Again this is the point I was doing my best to get across. It is just as legitimate. Same as "Dudeism" A religion based on The Big Lebowski.

Prophets? Events that have occurred? Any actual believers? Its kind of important to have believers. Never mind this is pointless.

Frazzled wrote:Prophets? Events that have occurred? Any actual believers? Its kind of important to have believers. Never mind this is pointless.

I actually agree with Frazz here. If nothing else, the member of the faith need to treat it with reverence to even begin to expect others to do the same.