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frgsinwntr wrote:If you revere the bible for example and get angry when people "mock" it... then don't be upset when someone bombs an artist's home when they draw/publish a picture of the prophet mohamad. IMHO It is still the same reaction (a lot more extreme... but that really is a cultural thing)

Total nonsense.

Becoming upset with someone is not the same as doing harm to others. Not even close.

Frazzled wrote:Prophets? Events that have occurred? Any actual believers? Its kind of important to have believers.

I am sure there are believers. Even if I am not one, the site even has people with tatoos on them!

Events? what kind of events?

Virgin Birth is not unique:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_virgin_births

OK... how about other parrallels that seem to repeat themselves?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_Christ_in_comparative_mythology

Gospels/writings?
yup FSMism has that too.

IMHO You are dismissing my argument with out considering the implications. Are large scores of believers necessary to be a religion, or cult? What really actually defines an event? Is a prophet really a prophet... or did they even exist at all?

I am not saying they didn't exist, but just opening the door to doubt.

Polonius wrote:

Frazzled wrote:Prophets? Events that have occurred? Any actual believers? Its kind of important to have believers. Never mind this is pointless.

I actually agree with Frazz here. If nothing else, the member of the faith need to treat it with reverence to even begin to expect others to do the same.

http://www.dudeism.com/

you can become a clergy man here... does that make it a real religion?

Orkeosaurus wrote:

frgsinwntr wrote:If you revere the bible for example and get angry when people "mock" it... then don't be upset when someone bombs an artist's home when they draw/publish a picture of the prophet mohamad. IMHO It is still the same reaction (a lot more extreme... but that really is a cultural thing)

Total nonsense.

Becoming upset with someone is not the same as doing harm to others. Not even close.

I agree! But that is because of myself growing up in the USA. But... culturally speaking this is not the same around the world...

Edit: Perhaps this is the time I can learn something new. Please elaborate.

Can Dudeists roll on Shabbos?

Orkeosaurus wrote:Can Dudeists roll on Shabbos?

I have no idea... I guess if they go to a party and its the chill thing to do.

Polonius: I remember that also. Mocking a religion is not a wise thing to do. Since religion is a personal belief, and some people identify themselves by their religion, mocking religion is like mocking the person himself. This thread is very interesting and this is a very delicate issue.

I respect the point of view from Atheist that they feel Religion is arguably silly and morally abhorrent to them,but just as they have the right to criticize, I will reserve the right to criticize them with or without the use of satire. On the other hand I accept the right of others to hold such points of view.

"Stay in the Light of the Emperor and he will guide you through the shadows" 108th Crusaders 999.M-41

frgsinwntr wrote:I agree! But that is because of myself growing up in the USA. But... culturally speaking this is not the same around the world...

Edit: Perhaps this is the time I can learn something new. Please elaborate.

I know of no culture that considers them to be the same. Some cultures may consider violence an appropriate response to a certain offense, but they're well aware of the difference between violence and anger.

If a Muslim sees a portrayal of Muhammad that makes him angry, that does not immediately cause him to turn violent; only a complete sociopath would be unable to separate a feeling of anger, offense, or hatred from immediately committing a violent act.

If a Muslim (who would already probably be pretty fanatic, in my opinion) decided that the portrayal of Muhammad needed violent retribution, that would likely be based, at least somewhat, on culture; however, the culture dictates what does and does not deserve violence, it does not eliminate the difference between violence and anger/offense.

After all, there may be quite a bit of violence int he middle east, but the entire region would be in flames if people were unable to see the difference in the two.

Interesting. I am going to go do some research on this aspect of the topic as I am not well versed and far from even mediocre in knowledge about violence and culture... Until then... this is where I will start my search for understanding.

http://www.law.berkeley.edu/institutes/csls/Taiwan%20Piece.pdf

Well, just think about it in non-religious terms.

A person from a particular culture may be more likely to start a fight over a particular insult than a person of another culture may be, but they both understand the difference between their reactions.

People of the first culture simply think that their reaction is justified, while people of the second culture do not.

Orkeosaurus wrote:Well, just think about it in non-religious terms.

A person from a particular culture may be more likely to start a fight over a particular insult than a person of another culture may be, but they both understand the difference between their reactions.

People of the first culture simply think that their reaction is justified, while people of the second culture do not.

So like I think it is a bit extreme to threaten someone (with violence, or an internetesque bully style) for mocking the bible... while others might think it is not extreme enough... and this is determined by the social tolerance of such behaviors from which a person is raised?

hmm

I like this discussion.

Now can I ask a question, that not meant to offend most likely will not be taken as the intellectual debate it is intended to be?

Why do Christians believe the devil is a god? And in the Same respects why are Satanists Christians? Now hear me out... before shutting me out. Christians believe in more then one God, father, son, Holy spirit, jesus... yea and they pray to saints and angels.... polytheistic under the guise of monotheism. In the same regard if the devil is there to fight against god and we must struggle in order to resist his otherworldly control... doesn't this challenge the all powerfuls abilities in a way only a God/Godlike being can?

In the same regard... are Satanists also christian? They need to acknowledge that Christ exists in order to reject him so completely...

Just some musings that came up that left me in deep thought for a very long time when I debated with the preacher from Penn state that stands on campus preaching to people about how evil they are....

Any particular reason why that preacher is demonizing you? Are you at a university of science or something?

frgsinwntr wrote:

Why do Christians believe the devil is a god? And in the Same respects why are Satanists Christians? Now hear me out... before shutting me out. Christians believe in more then one God, father, son, Holy spirit, jesus... yea and they pray to saints and angels.... polytheistic under the guise of monotheism. In the same regard if the devil is there to fight against god and we must struggle in order to resist his otherworldly control... doesn't this challenge the all powerfuls abilities in a way only a God/Godlike being can?

In the same regard... are Satanists also christian? They need to acknowledge that Christ exists in order to reject him so completely...

well, from my days as a baptist, the trinity (god the father, god the son, and god the holy ghost) are viewed as 3 that are one. its kinda weird, but its a sort of aspects of a whole kind of thing more then 3 different gods. (keep in mind, i haven't been a practitioner of an organized religion in years, so i could be a bit off)

as for the saints and angels being prayed to, i would guess that more along the lines of asking them to get god to help you, since your a cause they stood for or somesuch, i would guess a catholic perhaps would be better to ask, since baptists didn't really have much talk along those lines.

as for satan, he was suppose to be the greatest of angels, with loads of power, and while he can do a lot of stuff, he can't actually win against god, so isn't really on the same level (though to believers, he still has enough power to do quite a lot)

and i have no real experience with satanists, though i was under the impression they worshiped more primordial ideas then a judeo-christian father of lies, prince of darkness type thing.

i'm could be wrong, and probably am on a few points, but the way this thread is going, i'm sure someone will have a more in depth explaination soon

Cheese Elemental wrote:Any particular reason why that preacher is demonizing you? Are you at a university of science or something?

nope. I was there for a football game. He gets paid to be outside like that

Did nobody read my last post or cared about it?

Frazzled wrote:

If I said this about your religion. I would be Banned/warned/yelled at. How is this fair? Example... someone here said something bad about the bible and got warned and told to get off their lawn... I'm sorry Frazzled... but you're not being an impartial mod here...

I’m offended that you’re offended! I have insulted the great Spaghetti Bowl! OMG someone reported me, and it wasn’t me! Oh wait you’re serious… and here I thought we were having a nice conversation. . Well that wraps it up for me on this thread, teach me to participate on a thread about religion. Why did I open this thread twice again?

Disregarding a religious movement because it is in it's infancy and another has been around a long time isn't a very good argument against the younger movement because all religions start as a small, usually scorned, group. Christianity started as a very small and maligned group as well.

There are arguments to be made on some of the other points to be sure but the fact that is just beginning is not a very valid one as all start with a handful of believers and move forward.

For all we know this joke could in 2000 years be the standard religious group. In Japan it will be Hello Kitty Worship.

are Satanists also christian

Like in general or are you referring to Anton Lavey's group?

Good job greenskin lynn: For the most part this is all correct and I hope frgsinwntr: It answered some of your ????????????.

Greenlight1107 wrote:Good job greenskin lynn: For the most part this is all correct and I hope frgsinwntr: It answered some of your ????????????.

With Any question I ask, I don't think I will satisfied with ANY answer.

1) well, from my days as a baptist, the trinity (god the father, god the son, and god the holy ghost) are viewed as 3 that are one. its kinda weird, but its a sort of aspects of a whole kind of thing more then 3 different gods. (keep in mind, i haven't been a practitioner of an organized religion in years, so i could be a bit off)


polytheist - one who believes in a plurality of gods
Three as one... how is this different then one as there. No matter how you cut it, it is polytheistic.

2) as for the saints and angels being prayed to, i would guess that more along the lines of asking them to get god to help you, since your a cause they stood for or somesuch, i would guess a catholic perhaps would be better to ask, since baptists didn't really have much talk along those lines.

If god is everywhere at once listening to us... why would he even need this middle man? Seems a bit of waste. unless his power is limited?

as for satan, he was suppose to be the greatest of angels, with loads of power, and while he can do a lot of stuff, he can't actually win against god, so isn't really on the same level (though to believers, he still has enough power to do quite a lot)

yea..... gonna let this one go for now. I am sure we will get to it later

On another note frgsinwntr: When one speaks of Luciferian or Satanists worship, the very idea comes as both a shock and an enigma for most people. Many people, especially Christians, find it very hard to believe that someone would worship Lucifer, the fallen angel, or Satan. Even non-religious people in our culture find Luciferian worship hard to swallow. Their attitude is primarily shaped by the fact that we live in a largely Judeo-Christian culture where Lucifer is anathema or an abomination being directly opposed to God.

As a student of the bible I can't even understand the philosophy of it. I do know that worshippers of Lucifer feel that he has received a "bum rap" from Christians and Jews who personify him as evil.

I know that there was a time in heaven when the Devil was cast out because of the Devils up rising In Isaiah 14:12 it speaks of Lucifer falling from heaven, etc., There was a war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, and prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: He was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. (Revelation 12:7-9)

The Devils argument is that you do not have a choice and that if you had that choice you would want to be free of him and his rule over you.

Luciferian or Satanists know that there will be a finale war and are sideing with Satan. It says "That the last half of the tribulation period, Satan will gather his demonic army and declare war against the power of God Almighty. Why he has chosen this specific time is not known. But God, who knows the mind of Satan better then himself, is fully aware of his scheming plans. Michael the archangel will be appointed to lead the heavenly host into battle, while Satan will take command and lead his forces. Now I ask who's side will you be on?

frgsinwntr wrote:

Greenlight1107 wrote:Good job greenskin lynn: For the most part this is all correct and I hope frgsinwntr: It answered some of your ????????????.

With Any question I ask, I don't think I will satisfied with ANY answer.

1) well, from my days as a baptist, the trinity (god the father, god the son, and god the holy ghost) are viewed as 3 that are one. its kinda weird, but its a sort of aspects of a whole kind of thing more then 3 different gods. (keep in mind, i haven't been a practitioner of an organized religion in years, so i could be a bit off)


polytheist - one who believes in a plurality of gods
Three as one... how is this different then one as there. No matter how you cut it, it is polytheistic.
i was just giving what i remembered as the party line, so to speak. in my personal opinion, it is polytheistic, but they don't like to admit it with that "there is only one god" lines
2) as for the saints and angels being prayed to, i would guess that more along the lines of asking them to get god to help you, since your a cause they stood for or somesuch, i would guess a catholic perhaps would be better to ask, since baptists didn't really have much talk along those lines.

If god is everywhere at once listening to us... why would he even need this middle man? Seems a bit of waste. unless his power is limited?
i'm not really sure either, i was pretty much making a guess.
as for satan, he was suppose to be the greatest of angels, with loads of power, and while he can do a lot of stuff, he can't actually win against god, so isn't really on the same level (though to believers, he still has enough power to do quite a lot)

yea..... gonna let this one go for now. I am sure we will get to it later
sorry, its just been a long time since i practiced this religion, so what i remember is pretty vague beyond (he is evil, the father of lies, booga booga booga he'll get'cha if your bad) and (according to the good book, he will be cast into a pit/ he loses, says so right here in chapter whatever)

frgsinwntr wrote:1) well, from my days as a baptist, the trinity (god the father, god the son, and god the holy ghost) are viewed as 3 that are one. its kinda weird, but its a sort of aspects of a whole kind of thing more then 3 different gods. (keep in mind, i haven't been a practitioner of an organized religion in years, so i could be a bit off)


polytheist - one who believes in a plurality of gods
Three as one... how is this different then one as there. No matter how you cut it, it is polytheistic.

This is a very old argument in Christian theology going way way back. The debate over the nature of Jesus as either wholly man, wholly god, or hybrid was one of the earliest conflicts. Was it Constantine that got all of the Christian leaders together and locked them in a room and told them to make a decision? I think it was. Their answer today is what we got as the most common belief. One has taken more followers but there are still others out there that believe differently.

As to the polytheistic problem, I can understand the confusion. Hindu really isn't any different (many gods represting different aspects of the one true god) yet gets the polytheistic label while Christianity gets monotheistic. By the standard Hinduism should also be labeled monotheistic. Still the difference may come from the fact that in Hinduism one aspect is usually focused on as the path to understanding whereas in Christianity all are sort of worshiped together. You don't get to many Christians that only worship the Holy Spirit exclusively,for example.

Greenlight1107 wrote:On another note frgsinwntr: When one speaks of Luciferian or Satanists worship, the very idea comes as both a shock and an enigma for most people. Many people, especially Christians, find it very hard to believe that someone would worship Lucifer, the fallen angel, or Satan. Even non-religious people in our culture find Luciferian worship hard to swallow. Their attitude is primarily shaped by the fact that we live in a largely Judeo-Christian culture where Lucifer is anathema or an abomination being directly opposed to God.

As a student of the bible I can't even understand the philosophy of it. I do know that worshippers of Lucifer feel that he has received a "bum rap" from Christians and Jews who personify him as evil.

I know that there was a time in heaven when the Devil was cast out because of the Devils up rising In Isaiah 14:12 it speaks of Lucifer falling from heaven, etc., There was a war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, and prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: He was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. (Revelation 12:7-9)

The Devils argument is that you do not have a choice and that if you had that choice you would want to be free of him and his rule over you.

Luciferian or Satanists know that there will be a finale war and are sideing with Satan. It says "That the last half of the tribulation period, Satan will gather his demonic army and declare war against the power of God Almighty. Why he has chosen this specific time is not known. But God, who knows the mind of Satan better then himself, is fully aware of his scheming plans. Michael the archangel will be appointed to lead the heavenly host into battle, while Satan will take command and lead his forces. Now I ask who's side will you be on?

To quote Eddie Izzard..."So my choice is 'Or Death?'

To quote some other people:
I had a student ask me, "Could the savior you believe in save Osama bin Laden?" Of course. We know the blood of Jesus Christ can save him, and then he must be executed.
-- Rev. Jerry Falwell

The "wall of separation between church and state" is a metaphor based on bad history, a metaphor which has proved useless as a guide to judging. It should be frankly and explicitly abandoned.
-- William Rehnquist, Supreme Court

I want you to just let a wave of intolerance wash over you. I want you to let a wave of hatred wash over you. Yes, hate is good.... Our goal is a Christian nation. We have a Biblical duty, we are called by God, to conquer this country. We don't want equal time. We don't want pluralism."
--Randall Terry, quoted in The News-Sentinel, Fort Wayne, Indiana, August 16, 1993

We have no king but Jesus.
--John Ashcroft, May 8, 1999

We're going to bring back God and the Bible and drive the gods of secular humanism right out of the public schools of America.
--Pat Buchanan, at an anti-gay rally in Des Moines, Iowa, February 11, 1996

The idea that religion and politics don't mix was invented by the Devil to keep Christians from running their own country.
-- Rev. Jerry Falwell

After the Christian majority takes control, pluralism will be seen as immoral and evil and the state will not permit anybody the right to practice evil.
--Gary Potter, president of Catholics for Christian Political Action

The Christian community has a golden opportunity to train an army of dedicated teachers who can invade the public school classrooms and use them to influence the nation for Christ.
--D. James Kennedy, Coral Ridge Ministries, 1993

The Constitution of the United States, for instance, is a marvelous document for self-government by the Christian people. But the minute you turn the document into the hands of non-Christian people and atheistic people they can use it to destroy the very foundation of our society. And that's what's been happening.
--Pat Robertson

The feminist agenda is not about equal rights for women. It is about a socialist, anti-family political movement that encourages women to leave their husbands, kill their children, practice witchcraft, destroy capitalism, and become lesbians.
--Pat Robertson

I think we ought to close Halloween down. Do you want your children to dress up as witches? The Druids used to dress up like this when they were doing human sacrifice... [Your children] are acting out Satanic rituals and participating in it, and don't even realize it.
--Pat Robertson

Get the few liberals out. If you don't do it, it ain't gonna be done. You will be doing the Lord's work, and he will richly bless you for it.
--Sen. James Inhofe, R-Oklahoma, Christian Coalition's Road to Victory Conference, 2002, Washington D.C

If I do not return to the pulpit this weekend, millions of people will go to hell.
-- Jimmy Swaggart

These people all have a very similiar style of speech... especially the last.

It is very easy to say we are standing on the precipice of the end of times... but that really is an argument based on the thought your audience is afraid... I'm sorry I don't think IMHO your question has an answer and if it did, it would be worth debating for a lifetime.

on all those quotes- those kind of people are one of the reasons i don't miss being part of that religion

edit-reworded some and removed some elements that i decided weren't needed

Ehm...wow!
I mean, it's not like all atheists are saints (pun intended), but these quotes are really hardcore. I can understand that people like this actually scare people away from christianity.
But it's not like everyone who's not religious automatically is that much smarter. The quotes above are just some worst-case-scenarios.

Anung Un Rama wrote:Ehm...wow!
I mean, it's not like all atheists are saints (pun intended), but these quotes are really hardcore. I can understand that people like this actually scare people away from christianity.
But it's not like everyone who's not religious automatically is that much smarter. The quotes above are just some worst-case-scenarios.

Agreed. (hehe I'm a pretty intense person)

Anung Un Rama wrote:Ehm...wow!
I mean, it's not like all atheists are saints (pun intended), but these quotes are really hardcore. I can understand that people like this actually scare people away from christianity.
But it's not like everyone who's not religious automatically is that much smarter. The quotes above are just some worst-case-scenarios.

I used to be an Atheist. But then a college buddy (knowing of our mutual Atheism) gave me a copy of the God Delusion with his emphatic endorsement. Since then I have never identified as an Atheist in any discussion of religion. When someone can write an entire book about how Atheism is superior to Theism, and simultaneously advocate the formation of specifically Atheistic organizations, you know that part of the puzzle got lost in the move.

And now, a tangential point. I find the phrase 'secular humanist' to be a contradiction. A humanist is a person who believes in humanity as a force for good. A secularist is a person who is without religion. If the secular humanist is to actually be secular he must accept all human activity as positive. If he doesn't, then he has created a set of beliefs about the supernatural (an ideal humanity) which contradicts his nature as a secularist.

Yeah, there have been some mod alerts in this thread. Since so many people are pouring salt into eyes (as it were), I'm leaving them alone.

Duke it out, fellas.

Iorek wrote:Yeah, there have been some mod alerts in this thread. Since so many people are pouring salt into eyes (as it were), I'm leaving them alone.

Duke it out, fellas.

i don't know why, but now i find myself imagining some of the posters entering the thunder dome, some armed with the tools of their chosen religion

I think religion is pretty cool guy, eh kills aleins and doesn't afraid of anything.

You know, despite being an nominal atheist, I do like to believe in a very short afterlife.

Just five minutes after death, for all those self aggrandising, arrogant, swaggering, doom swearing extreme religious arseholes to figure out there is no God. There never was. There never will be. Ideally, I'd like a theory defying crowd of atheist souls to be there, just for five minutes, to point, laugh and say 'I told you so'.

Just five short minutes. That would make me laugh. To see the look of sheer and utter horror, just before oblivion hits, when they realise it was all a lie.

greenskin lynn wrote:

Iorek wrote:Yeah, there have been some mod alerts in this thread. Since so many people are pouring salt into eyes (as it were), I'm leaving them alone.

Duke it out, fellas.

i don't know why, but now i find myself imagining some of the posters entering the thunder dome, some armed with the tools of their chosen religion

NERD THUNDERDOME!