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Tax in the UK, for employees, is a piece of piss.

I've always had my Tax deducted from each and every pay packet.

Thus no need to fanny about with bits of paper and that.

Ah, then you have not been "dealt with" in the past young padiwon...

Nothing like being threatened by an agent with fines, interest, and jail time, when its an error on the IRS's part.

It's my first year dealing with real taxes, it also helps that I make relatively no money.

@MDG
We do the same here, but sometimes the tax guys take too much and we get it back at the end of the year. If state taxes doesn't take it all away afterwards.

We get the occasional rebate now and again.

Way it works here, is that everyone has a certain allowance of money you can earn tax free. For me, it's something like £5220. This is divided up evenly between paypackets, with the rest of that periods money being taxed (including National Insurance which pays for NHS and that) at around 27%.

Thus, as my allowance is spread evenly througout the year, should there be a fluctuation in my earnings, as I have this year, it's easy to pay too much, but very difficult to pay too little, provided things are handled correctly by your company accountant when doing the payroll.

halonachos wrote:It's my first year dealing with real taxes, it also helps that I make relatively no money.

@MDG
We do the same here, but sometimes the tax guys take too much and we get it back at the end of the year. If state taxes doesn't take it all away afterwards.

State tax. Suckers. Texas trades a state tax for a clothing tax.

My state has a 5% sales tax so HA!

BTW: I have no idea what sales tax is in Texas.

Cannerus_The_Unbearable wrote:

halonachos wrote:It's my first year dealing with real taxes, it also helps that I make relatively no money.

@MDG
We do the same here, but sometimes the tax guys take too much and we get it back at the end of the year. If state taxes doesn't take it all away afterwards.

State tax. Suckers. Texas trades a state tax for a clothing tax.

Except for sales tax holidays of course

Yeah, what a great non-working idea. Theres also the whole "no tax for school related items, but only this weekend" holiday. I still paid taxes on my school laptop, friggin' stupid non-specific tax holidays.

Anung Un Rama wrote:What's Godwined

Dude called Godwin came up with the claim 'as any discussion thread on usenet continues, the probability of a comparison involving nazis increases to 1'. Basically it was a joke pointing out that as threads get longer the signal to noise ratio gets pretty bad, and also that people bring Hitler a lot.

Over time its kind of evolved* into this idea that whoever mentions nazis first loses the thread. Or alternately that as soon as nazis get mentioned the thread is bad and no more information is to come out of it.


*devolved?... actually probably better not mention evolution at all given the other thread just got locked

Polonius wrote:To be fair, the IRS takes the heat but it's really congress that makes people pay taxes. The IRS (and the tax court) are generally really fair minded, and while paying taxes sucks, they go out of their way to make it easier. I'd say that 70% of the complexity of the tax code is to allow exemptions and deductions. It's even higher for corporate taxes.

Sort of. The US has a lot of oddball exemptions and the like, but most of the complexity is due to the fact that income is a surprisingly complicated thing once you move away from salary. What's income and what's capital? What's a deduction and what's a private expense. It's a tricky thing before you get people trying to game the system.

halonachos wrote:Evil... well it seems that whenever someone discusses religion they mention evil, but they never mention satan. Thats like asking why WW2 happened and never mentioning Hitler.

I see it like this, god and satan are at war. Earth and the mortal realm is the battlefield. God has said "I trust mankind so much that I will not intervene in their activities and will give them the ability to freely choose what they want to do." Satan said "Alright, I'll do the same."

However, satan lies and of course is influencing evil events. God on the other hand is the goody two shoes who is tied by his past promise to not influence our actions, if god DID influence human behavior directly, then he would've gone down to satan's level. Adolf Hitler, Stalin, and company are all those who have been influenced by satan. What can god do without being a lying hypocrite, relatively nothing. He can however make the Russian winter harsh and cause the thaw to bog down german tanks.

Because I believe that satan can exist(and there's good proof) I believe that god also exists. I believe though that god has less influence on mankind.

Once you assume Satan has some measure of power, there isn't a problem because God is no longer omnipotent. Remember there's only a problem if God needs to be omnipotent, omniscient and benevolent.

Also, I don't think every Christian faith teaches that Satan plays an active hand in the material world, but I'm don't know all that much about it. Is there a decent summary of this online anywhere? Breaking it down, faith by faith?

The story of Job.

God and satan had a contest, god bet that no matter what satan did to Job, Job would stay faithful to god.

Satan killed Job's family, destroyed his house, gave him disease, killed his herd, and killed his crops. Job stayed faithful and was rewarded.

I think that god is omnipotent, but can get his hands tied. As to my example, satan made hitler kill jews and invade countries. God then made the russian tundra thaw and almost ceased the german advance, allowing the russians to counter attack, thus leading to hitler's fall.

Also the whole expulsion of the jews from egypt. God made unnatural occurences to help the jews.

I never believed that god was all good though, he's killed some people. The first child of every egyptian family for example.

halonachos wrote:I think that god is omnipotent, but can get his hands tied. As to my example, satan made hitler kill jews and invade countries. God then made the russian tundra thaw and almost ceased the german advance, allowing the russians to counter attack, thus leading to hitler's fall.

Also the whole expulsion of the jews from egypt. God made unnatural occurences to help the jews...

I find this God/Satan double act most difficult to get my head around this interventionist, meddling policy seems such a petty and unlikely course of action for the creator of the universe. I think these stories weaken the case for the existence of God as a universal creator in that they make the whole concept of god laughable.

It is similar to the recent creationist argument. If there was an intelligent universal creator (God) who created the stars and the suns why is it so implausible to some people that he could create life in a self adapting form that would seek to fill his universe while following the parameters he set down when he created the first molecules? He knew full well some of them would adapt into life and later intelligent life all the while following the design concepts (atoms, DNA, evolution, gravity etc.) that he crated.

halonachos wrote:My state has a 5% sales tax so HA!

BTW: I have no idea what sales tax is in Texas.

9%, I think.

sebster wrote:

Polonius wrote:To be fair, the IRS takes the heat but it's really congress that makes people pay taxes. The IRS (and the tax court) are generally really fair minded, and while paying taxes sucks, they go out of their way to make it easier. I'd say that 70% of the complexity of the tax code is to allow exemptions and deductions. It's even higher for corporate taxes.

Sort of. The US has a lot of oddball exemptions and the like, but most of the complexity is due to the fact that income is a surprisingly complicated thing once you move away from salary. What's income and what's capital? What's a deduction and what's a private expense. It's a tricky thing before you get people trying to game the system.

Exemptions is the term for items of income that aren't includable as taxable income, so it's part of the same complexity. Trust me, I know how difficult it is to tell what's income.

With the whole creationist thing I liken god to a scientist. Sure he knows what'll happen but he must see if it does. Like a scientific experiment. Scientists know how it should happen, but test it to see if it really does.

I don't see how it is implausible. God said that he wouldn't influence man directly and satan said he would do the same. Satan being the king of lies of course lied and influences man directly. In order for god NOT to lie he would then have to find ways to fight this without directly influencing man. So god uses nature to stop satan's attacks. Satan wants us to go to hell and throws whatever he can at us (homicide, genocide, hitler, stalin, Kenny G, etc.) while god must ways to stop these. Unfortunately, the only way to kill kennG is to remove oxygen which would kill us all.

halonachos wrote:In order for god NOT to lie he would then have to find ways to fight this without directly influencing man.

This would not be lying this would be God changing his mind.

Not if it was promised that he would influence our actions and control us.

In fact, let me make it easier on myself. I've been arguing from the point of someone who believes in predestination. My religion does not so let me think from there.

God, IMO, says to us "Alright, all of you can get into heaven. In fact I believe that all of you will, but I am not going to influence you in your journey to heaven. Any actions you commit are your own, and I will not have your ending set in stone. Your actions influence your ending, I am giving you a clean slate to start with. Any actions you commit, good or bad, will be written on the slate and evaluated at the end."

So all in all, we are responsible for our actions. Like school and the grading system. Everyone starts with a 100%, but if they perform poorly that percentage drops and they can fail. If they keep up then they can pass.

Yet could it not be construed that following The Bible in order to access Heaven is not really using Freewill if you never deviate?

We are of course responsible for our actions (how I loathe 'God/Devil told me too. yip yip yip BANANA!) but to do so in the hope of getting into Heaven, to me, somehow defeats God's plan?

Or am I just overthinking this?

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Yet could it not be construed that following The Bible in order to access Heaven is not really using Freewill if you never deviate?

We are of course responsible for our actions (how I loathe 'God/Devil told me too. yip yip yip BANANA!) but to do so in the hope of getting into Heaven, to me, somehow defeats God's plan?

Or am I just overthinking this?

No, you're not, if someone was doing good things only because they thought they'd get into heaven, they're not really living up to the plan, which would be that people help each other because they want to be kind.

It's sort of like the people who are only serving others because of mandated community service hours, their intentions are not to help others, but to get it over with.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Yet could it not be construed that following The Bible in order to access Heaven is not really using Freewill if you never deviate?

We are of course responsible for our actions (how I loathe 'God/Devil told me too. yip yip yip BANANA!) but to do so in the hope of getting into Heaven, to me, somehow defeats God's plan?

That depends on how you want to think of God. If you think of him as an old man in the sky, then the notion of predestination becomes problematic. If you consider 'him' in the sense that Spinoza consider 'him' (God = Universe), then the matter is far less problematic as all things are of God. You have free will with respect to God in the same way that your cells have free will with respect to you. There is 'choice', but it is bounded by possibility as governed by the system.

10 pages of unlocked religious banter? Nice work tolerating one another, folks.

I was raised Anglican, confirmed (erstkommunion equivalent) at around 10-11, and have been an athiest since I figured it all out when I was 6-7 (no, this is not a 16-17 typo). The years prior to that I was not taught any alternatives, which made me a pretty betrayed-feeling kind of kid... In later years at a Christian highschool I had to endure 'Christian Studies' classes, during which I was explicitly not allowed to discuss other religions, even in relevant context. I... don't think the other kids had this restriction, but they were good, innocent, unopinionated Christians who had probably never actually read a Bible passage that hadn't been partially quoted to them.

I got detention once for stating that "even if I prescribed myself to this book, I would tear Revelations out of the back. That's the biggest load of..."
I don't actually know if it was the mention of tearing a bible or the opinion that one scripture was more bogus than another that got me into trouble. It was all pretty irritating. If anything, I think children should be as well-educated about as many different religions as is practical, particularly the mainstream ones.

I don't see the bible more than a book of good ideas and fables. I am a full blown catholic(the worst kind of christian) and I really see the bilbe as an example. It shows things that are good and things that are bad, kind of like a textbook that shows how to use grammar. The bible is showing you that you should do things because they are good, and if you do so you get a nice bonus.

I agree with the education about religions, it wouldn't change me, I'm just too stubborn. I've read revelations and that is the scariest thing I've ever read, Stephen King would have issues coming up with something as scary as that.

Personnally though, I go with this quote: "Even the devil can quote the bible.".

@Arctik
Well, its not really 10 full pages of religious discussion. We went on a tangent about taxes and the IRS and such.

halonachos wrote:I don't see the bible more than a book of good ideas and fables. I am a full blown catholic(the worst kind of christian) and I really see the bilbe as an example. It shows things that are good and things that are bad, kind of like a textbook that shows how to use grammar. The bible is showing you that you should do things because they are good, and if you do so you get a nice bonus.

Not making an attack... just poking your idea here..
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REALLY?!
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Have you read the part about stoning your child to death if they disobey? or selling your daughter to a stranger? Have you read much of it at all?

I mean... yes there are 1 or 2 good things... but most of it is right out...

IMHO... you should be very specific about saying which ideas are good ones...

Deleted by the modquisition as inappropriate. Poster has been warned.

Carefull guys, it's getting warmer again.
@kged, your commentary seems to be bit too harsh. I'm not saying I'm disagreeing with it, but the word "appalling" might be a little too much flaming for some people.

Since we finally got out of that whole IRS discussion, a question for the catholics among you:
What about this whole "original sin" deal? Is that still official? I'm a litte fuzzy on the details, someone care to elaborate?

kged wrote:All Christians should read the Bible. They need to realise just how appalling it really is.

and then the thread was closed and people were warned off side.

Gentlemen, I am re-opening this one last time by request.

Politeness and respect to other posters will be required on this thread going forward. If you cannot post in such manner than do not post. A discussion arguing merits in a polite manner can be done, and has been done so (I applaud posters to date). If Sebbie, Dogma et al can post in a polite manner on this topic then anyone can.

However, if you post a statement spuriously attacking other members, religions, other religions, or atheists you will be suspended. This includes new posters and more seasoned posters. if you are too emotional about the topic do not post, as I myself have kept a hands off.

translation:


With that in mind, please continue as it has been an interesting thread.

halonachos was so nice to answer my question via P.M. once the thread was closed. I'll post it here again to get the topic rolling again:

Alright, because it got closed and couldn't answer.

Yes, original sin still applies. It came from eve eating the apple and disobeying god. This sin is removed after first baptism though. Children don't really get considered under the "sinning" file for a while though, as there is some time before they realize their own actions after baptism.

Which brings me the next question, altough that might have been covered already somewhere:
Isn't that unfair to people who grow up and live without a christian church around? Like, I dunno, in Africa or North Korea.

Thats why it is the duty of Christians to bring the Word to them, both in action, and word.