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Wow, is this done already?

I'm suprised that this thread is/was less angry and flamestorm cannon-resembling than the Deffrolla rules "discussions."

When I started this thread, I said that I can't really believe in god with so much bad things happening in the world, like starvation, wars, all that stuff. Some of these things probably could be prevented if enough people got together and worked on a real solution.
But then stuff like the whole "Fritzl case" in Austria happens and all I can think of is: "Okay, if there is a god, he either can't see in other people's basement or he's a real donkey-cave."

But it's all part of his unknowable will. I believe thats the stock religious answer to an act of unutterable evil.

Well, though I am a latecomer to this discussion and have not read through the last 9 pages of this discussion, I would like to, if I may, respond to the OP. I hope I am not diverting the flow of a particularly pointed argument.

As one who is currently unconvinced by the dogma(s) religion, or the absoluteness of science, I have been perched comfortably on the fence for the last 11 some odd years. So here is what I have concluded based on my observations.

I believe that God exists. And I believe that God is one of the the supreme powers in the world right now, surpassed only by money. That being said, I do not think that God exists as an entity. The "God" that I refer to is the idea that motivates people to do things. Because of "God", millions have died, and because of "God", Billions have found comfort, and the strength to continue where they might not have if they didn't have their faith.

As an organization, religion is again a great benefit, and detriment to society. It creates communities where they would not have existed before, and at the same time, can create discriminating and bigoted ideas that swamp vast swathes of the populace.

I have a question for those that are religious: What is the point of prayer?

Prayer in it's most basic level, I believe, should just be a communication with God. That's it.

And to say that bad stuff is happening and it's somehow God's fault just doesn't make sense to me. I believe supernatural things occur more than we know, but I also believe they happen a lot less than we'd like to think. People are plenty jacked up and will mess things up for themselves just fine. People suck, not God, I guess is my point.

People suck, not God, I guess is my point.

If you read back a bit there was a 40 something post discussion on the concept of "free will" and what it entails in relation to god and whether it is even possible. Just to reference, there's some pretty neat stuff in there.

Not sure if 9 pages and no interweebs crusade means maturity of conversation or lack of any real faith on any side.

Oh, yeah, this is the internet. Sorry, I must have forgotten that for a moment.

One thing that is a little interesting is that some people seem to think it's impossible that God really gives humanity free will, while simultaneously finding it reprehensible that god would allow evil to exist.

For humanity to have actual free will, God has to allow humanity to do what it will.

But shouldn't he at somne point just pull the plug? Because a lot of this stuf down here just doesn't work. At all.

What about the First World War. Britain lost an entire generation in that conflict, which was largely over nothing in particular.

That eroded the countries faith in a benevolent creator. Millions died for the ego of a few. Why would God not intervene in that? Young boys sent of to die in conditions you would not believe, whilst those sending them sat up in the proverbial Ivory Tower not getting their hands dirty?

I do not believe in God. At all. And I feel no hole in my being for doing so. As I said before, to my mind Religion and Faith is little more than the ultimate Placebo, a way by which people focus on the positive that stops them going entirely insane in the face of the worlds rampant idiocy and cruelty.

My strength comes from accepting the simple maxim of 'poop happens'. There is no plan, there is no goal. We simply have 70ish years or so (maybe a bit longer) on this planet, so we might as well enjoy it. Why put off to tomorrow what I can enjoy today? It's not easy accepting that things simply are, but if you really think about it from a philosophical point of view, you'll soon get used to it.

I would like to think that there is at least some kind of god, but it sur ain't the one the bible talks about.

Religion is a debate which decides between two evils...
the evil of indoctrination and the evil of indifference.

One could argue for the rest of their lives about the existance of GOD (who ever or whatever that entity is) from a positive OR negative viewpoint.

However, the good or bad belief of God, and others, is not the point... the business of Religion and it's use or abuse is.

Everyone has a right to HOPE in it's many forms... peace, comfort, unity, coexistance, support, and many more... however, when it is decreed or enforced that "it's my religion / God or else", then it becomes fundamentally evil and anti social.

People in power for more than 2000 years have used the church (in it's many forms) and religion (also in it's many forms) to persuade, coherce, and force their will upon the masses "in the name of GOD" (again in it's many forms).

Faith has nothing to do with religion, belief has nothing to do with religion... understanding humanity for the sake of the human race is all that is required.

Obviously in a perfect world, one persons hope and belief in their fellow man to do the right thing in a reciprocal manner is all that is needed... the very wealthy big business of religion is not needed.

If all our talk and actions were directed towards my last sentence then we wouldn't need my first sentence.

Mik

Anung Un Rama wrote:But shouldn't he at somne point just pull the plug? Because a lot of this stuf down here just doesn't work. At all.

Are we really all bad?

Nope, not all, but more than enough.
Adolf Hitler, Josef Fritzl, Uwe Boll. The list goes on.

What's wrong with Uwe Boll?

He's a talented director.

Orkeosaurus wrote:What's wrong with Uwe Boll?

He's a talented director.

Well now you're just trolling

Anung Un Rama wrote:Nope, not all, but more than enough.
Adolf Hitler, Josef Fritzl, Uwe Boll. The list goes on.

We've been Godwined! Finally, I can't believe it's taken this long in this thread!

What's Godwined

Evil... well it seems that whenever someone discusses religion they mention evil, but they never mention satan. Thats like asking why WW2 happened and never mentioning Hitler.

I see it like this, god and satan are at war. Earth and the mortal realm is the battlefield. God has said "I trust mankind so much that I will not intervene in their activities and will give them the ability to freely choose what they want to do." Satan said "Alright, I'll do the same."

However, satan lies and of course is influencing evil events. God on the other hand is the goody two shoes who is tied by his past promise to not influence our actions, if god DID influence human behavior directly, then he would've gone down to satan's level. Adolf Hitler, Stalin, and company are all those who have been influenced by satan. What can god do without being a lying hypocrite, relatively nothing. He can however make the Russian winter harsh and cause the thaw to bog down german tanks.

Because I believe that satan can exist(and there's good proof) I believe that god also exists. I believe though that god has less influence on mankind.


Then there's the argument that god could've made people so that they wouldn't want to commit evil, free will argument aside, there's ways to argue this. I believe that god did make such people. They're called children and mentally handicapped persons. Most children and mentally handicapped act with intentions of goodwill. Children have come up with solutions to the sadness of death and have found ways to comfort older persons. They also talk to strangers as if they were family, how many times has a child been around and told you it was their birthday? This is then shunned by the parent by saying "don't talk to strangers.". All of the mentally handicapped I've met were incredibly nice and are not faking this socially positive attitude.

Its only when children learn of the evils of the world that they lose this natural good attitude. We teach them that strangers are evil and can kill them, we teach them about slavery, war, genocide, and other nice things. This is when they see that evil is a natural part of the world and that good is unnatural. That's when they become like us, evil and corrupt.

Ah the old IRS is proof of the existence of Satan therefore God exists trick heh? Excellent...

What are you talking about, the IRS is amazingly good willed.

Oh my god I'm talking TOO Satan now!

RUN AWAY RUN AWAY!!!

You know, most non-americans wouldn't get the IRS jokes, at least I think so.

We should have a short, elongated history of the IRS to help explain what it is to anybody who doesn't know.

Point made. The IRS is the tax enforcement arm fo the US government. As has been discussed it is illegal for the US government to torture people. The IRS is exempted from this.

Maxwell Smart: "Where did you get all this interrogation equipment? the CIA?"

Control:
"No, the IRS."

To be fair, the IRS takes the heat but it's really congress that makes people pay taxes. The IRS (and the tax court) are generally really fair minded, and while paying taxes sucks, they go out of their way to make it easier. I'd say that 70% of the complexity of the tax code is to allow exemptions and deductions. It's even higher for corporate taxes.

It could be worse: we could be like many other countries, in which they track every dollar earned, and then simply send you a bill at the end of the year. I prefer our system of self reporting, thank you very much.

At least the IRS rounds to the nearest dollar.

I'm thinking neither of you have ever been audited by an exuberant agent...

Frazzled wrote:I'm thinking neither of you have ever been audited by an exuberant agent...

I don't' think I've ever actually paid taxes. I mean, I've had them withheld, but I always get them back, so no.