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Kroothawk wrote:

Heffling wrote:By the same concepts going into this lawsuit, one could argue that noone should manufacture aftermarket car parts without the automakers express permission. Yet, that happens daily.
It is my opinion that GW does not have a strong position in this case.

Actually, if GW WERE a car company, they WOULD sue all tire companies, demanding an immediate stop of tire production! No word if and when GW tires will be available of course

I am waiting for the first kid arrested in a GW store for making a conversion
"Hey, we have to protect our IP! Ask our lawyers how to run a toy store!"

If said kid is selling the stuff on for a profit...

Kanluwen wrote:The complaint was that "the option isn't offered by GW". That is false. It is offered by GW via their website.

That was not my complaint. Whether there is a GW option or not, I see more vendors offering products as a good thing. I can vote with my money whether I like something or not.


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Gibbsey wrote:Wendy's and Burger king dont sell McDoubles's for a reason

But they all sell burgers, chicken sandwiches, salads, fries, and soda.

MajorTom11 wrote:Kan, just because there is some overlap in the offerings doesn't mean everything CH makes GW makes. The majority of stuff they have on there is not being made by GW atm. You have stated that point many times in the past 2 pages, it is misleading and incorrect in general bro. Where do I go if I want a tervigon kit right now? farseer on jetbike? Soul Drinker shoulder pads? Pre-heresy Jump packs? A giant tau-ish walker? Not to GW. They don't have it.

Many of your other arguments have merit both from your point of view and definitive terms. This one however isn't really fair, and Goon's opinion of how he feels about it isn't up for debate either, it's just how the dude feels, right or wrong.

So why does that give a third party any kind of right to profit from this? That's what I'm driving at personally.

And Dietrich...the choice thing isn't that good a stand point if you ask me. It's not GW saying 'NO ONE ELSE CAN PRODUCE FANTASY MINIATURES MAHAHAHAHA!' it's GW saying 'Hey, going to not rip off of IP and artwork for your own ends'. It's like your aforementioned Wendy's advertising a Whopper Burger. Sure, a Burger is a Burger is a Burger, but at the end of the day, a Whopper is a Burger King trademark, built on their own reputation. CH are doing something very different.

MajorTom11 wrote:Kan, just because there is some overlap in the offerings doesn't mean everything CH makes GW makes. The majority of stuff they have on there is not being made by GW atm. You have stated that point many times in the past 2 pages, it is misleading and incorrect in general bro. Where do I go if I want a tervigon kit right now? farseer on jetbike? Soul Drinker shoulder pads? Pre-heresy Jump packs? A giant tau-ish walker? Not to GW. They don't have it.

But therein is the problem. There seems to be a disconnect in that because "It's not being made by GW at the moment." makes it fair game for Chapterhouse to make the entire kit(ex: Tervigon or Farseer on Jetbike). It really doesn't.

I've also never said "GW makes everything Chapterhouse makes". That's you putting words in my mouth. However, GW has stated that it is their goal to [i]produce a model for every unit entry in a Codex. Look at the Stormraven, the upcoming Skaven releases, etc. That in itself is proof that they're following through on it.

If you are selling products that use GW IP that compete with them expect to be sued

If you are makeing models based on GW IP or are calling them something that is GW IP expect to be sued.

If you are selling a model that could be used as something covered by GW IP but are not ripping off a design or naming it anything that violates GW IP then you are fine.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

dietrich wrote:

Gibbsey wrote:Wendy's and Burger king dont sell McDoubles's for a reason

But they all sell burgers, chicken sandwiches, salads, fries, and soda.

Wow you missed that point.....

Mr Mystery wrote:BTW, as an interesting aside, anyone know if this has had an effect on other companies selling custom bits? I know CH weren't the only ones doing Boneswords for example. I wonder if they've followed suit with hasty re-labelling.

Paulson's labels got a lot more generic when I looked today.

Kanluwen wrote:

MajorTom11 wrote:Kan, just because there is some overlap in the offerings doesn't mean everything CH makes GW makes. The majority of stuff they have on there is not being made by GW atm. You have stated that point many times in the past 2 pages, it is misleading and incorrect in general bro. Where do I go if I want a tervigon kit right now? farseer on jetbike? Soul Drinker shoulder pads? Pre-heresy Jump packs? A giant tau-ish walker? Not to GW. They don't have it.

But therein is the problem. There seems to be a disconnect in that because "It's not being made by GW at the moment." makes it fair game for Chapterhouse to make the entire kit(ex: Tervigon or Farseer on Jetbike). It really doesn't.

I've also never said "GW makes everything Chapterhouse makes". That's you putting words in my mouth. However, GW has stated that it is their goal to [i]produce a model for every unit entry in a Codex. Look at the Stormraven, the upcoming Skaven releases, etc. That in itself is proof that they're following through on it.

It is fair game for a company that does not complete it items, remember the whole thing about "supply over demand" GW does not or ever filled the "demand" part of their business. That why business like ChapterHouse is there for.

mrblacksunshine_1978 wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

MajorTom11 wrote:Kan, just because there is some overlap in the offerings doesn't mean everything CH makes GW makes. The majority of stuff they have on there is not being made by GW atm. You have stated that point many times in the past 2 pages, it is misleading and incorrect in general bro. Where do I go if I want a tervigon kit right now? farseer on jetbike? Soul Drinker shoulder pads? Pre-heresy Jump packs? A giant tau-ish walker? Not to GW. They don't have it.

But therein is the problem. There seems to be a disconnect in that because "It's not being made by GW at the moment." makes it fair game for Chapterhouse to make the entire kit(ex: Tervigon or Farseer on Jetbike). It really doesn't.

I've also never said "GW makes everything Chapterhouse makes". That's you putting words in my mouth. However, GW has stated that it is their goal to [i]produce a model for every unit entry in a Codex. Look at the Stormraven, the upcoming Skaven releases, etc. That in itself is proof that they're following through on it.

It is fair game for a company that does not complete it items, remember the whole thing about "supply over demand" GW does not or ever filled the "demand" part of their business. That why business like ChapterHouse is there for.

Absolute bollocks and you know it. GW own the IP, it is their right to release things as and when they see fit. This is categorically not any kind of permission for someone else to fill in in the meantime. CH are greedy little chancers, looking to make a fast buck on the back of someone elses hard work. Or perhaps you feel something like Movie Sequels are fair game for anyone to make, using the same IP, character names, setting etc?

Polonius wrote:

Mr Mystery wrote:If you were representing the plaintiff (GW..not sure on the US terminology!) would you push for settlement, or to try and litigate to a definitive answer? It's just I can see a definite upswing to GW pushing all the way, regardless of cost as it gives them a far stronger position in the future?

It depends what GW's goal is. Do they want to shut down Chapterhouse? Or do they want to test the legal waters and see if they can actually win on the merits?

In this case, assuming they just want to shut it down, I'd do what they are doing. Sue, fight it out, but I wouldn't go to trial. I'd either settle it, buy them out, or somehow avoid trial. I think risking establishing precendent is unwise here, given the neglible impact it has on the bottom line.

I would probably work to get a few of the bigger kits removed (spores and tervigons), and have everything else re-labelled and genericised.

Thank you for sticking up for my analogy. I realize you didn't do it for me personally, but it is still appreciated.

I feel confident that there is more to this tale than just what is on the surface. Note that this is my opinion, and not fact! I cannot image a company the size of GW not approaching Chapterhouse prior to the law suit and having some kind of a meaningful discussion. Obviously, talks would have broken down if they are now at the point of issuing a law suit. I would expect, at the very least, GW would have issued a Cease and Desist to Chapterhouse. GW, as a publically traded company, is out to make money. Corporate lawyers tend to be expensive. So, they wouldn't want to spend resources on something that the company did not feel strongly about.

Tires are, I think, a very bad analogy for aftermarket parts. A better analogy would be a hood scoop or body kit, which is much more akin to what Chapterhouse is selling. These items are designed to fit onto factory mountings, and will not affect the function of an automobile. Auto manufacturers are very protective of their brand image, and absolutely will not allow a third party to tarnish the image if they can help it. Yet, it's very easy to find aftermarket modifications that change the appearance of a vehicle.

Please note that for aftermarket modifications, there are some modifications that will void the warranty if installed. Using the previous example of tires, every automobile has a chart (usually on door frame of the drivers side front door) that gives recommended tire sizes and air pressures. If you install a different size tire or one that is not suitable for the indicated air pressure, then you may void part of the warranty of the vehicle.

Another popular aftermarket modification is forced induction. Adding a supercharger or turbocharger most certainly voids the warranty on the engine, transmission, and drive train.

However, GW's models do not have an intended function that is being violated by use of aftermarket modifications. And, in fact, GW sells and markets items for the purpose of post-purchase modification to their existing product. GW tool kits and green stuff are definately intended to allow the user to create exactly what is being sold by Chapterhouse. But you can't copyright the infinite potential of modeling polymer any more than you could all future books because you manufacture ink.

I don't think that, looking at Chapterhouses website, there is any way in which you could confuse their product as not being distinct from GW's product. They state that their product fits a GW product, such as Rhino doors would fit a Rhino, but that's the same as saying that a tail wing fits onto a Honda Civic.

I would think, in GW's position, that they do not want this case to go to court. If they can get the judge to issue a restraining order against Chapterhouse Studios and keep them out of business for a year, then Chapterhouse Studios will most likely fail without the case ever going to trial. If the case does go to trial, then GW could lose, which would set a bad prescedent for them.

@Mr Mystery: Or, instead of sequels, variant endings.

Yes but Wendy's does have the Baconator. It could be the best sandwich ever made, the chest pains you get after you eat it means it's good.

mrblacksunshine_1978 wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

MajorTom11 wrote:Kan, just because there is some overlap in the offerings doesn't mean everything CH makes GW makes. The majority of stuff they have on there is not being made by GW atm. You have stated that point many times in the past 2 pages, it is misleading and incorrect in general bro. Where do I go if I want a tervigon kit right now? farseer on jetbike? Soul Drinker shoulder pads? Pre-heresy Jump packs? A giant tau-ish walker? Not to GW. They don't have it.

But therein is the problem. There seems to be a disconnect in that because "It's not being made by GW at the moment." makes it fair game for Chapterhouse to make the entire kit(ex: Tervigon or Farseer on Jetbike). It really doesn't.

I've also never said "GW makes everything Chapterhouse makes". That's you putting words in my mouth. However, GW has stated that it is their goal to [i]produce a model for every unit entry in a Codex. Look at the Stormraven, the upcoming Skaven releases, etc. That in itself is proof that they're following through on it.

It is fair game for a company that does not complete it items, remember the whole thing about "supply over demand" GW does not or ever filled the "demand" part of their business. That why business like ChapterHouse is there for.

There is really nothing stopping companies making models that can be used, the problem is when a company takes a model design directly from the codex or uses a name / iconography / model that is GW copyrighted. Then GW is obligated to protect their IP, also you cant release items that are basically identical to GW's stuff to compete with them.

There is nothing stopping me converting a alien queen to use as a tervigon, the problem is when you sell it as a "Tervigon" (same with other models like chapter house's "mycetic spore")

GW sueing Chapterhouse seems A LOT to me as if they're going after one of these successful merc painters.

Perhaps they're next. Merc painters provide something that GW themselves do not, and they're basically using GW's IP in order to do it.

Maybe I'm off track though.

Indeed.

And again for the hard of understanding, the issue would appear to be the use of GW's copyrighted terminology (Genestealer, Tyranid, Ymgarl etc) rather than 'hey, that head fits the neck join! How curiously and coincidentally convenient'.

Chapter House have essentially taken the piss of the much touted 'fair usage'. You simply cannot use another companies IP to promote your own goods.

Mr Mystery wrote:

mrblacksunshine_1978 wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

MajorTom11 wrote:Kan, just because there is some overlap in the offerings doesn't mean everything CH makes GW makes. The majority of stuff they have on there is not being made by GW atm. You have stated that point many times in the past 2 pages, it is misleading and incorrect in general bro. Where do I go if I want a tervigon kit right now? farseer on jetbike? Soul Drinker shoulder pads? Pre-heresy Jump packs? A giant tau-ish walker? Not to GW. They don't have it.

But therein is the problem. There seems to be a disconnect in that because "It's not being made by GW at the moment." makes it fair game for Chapterhouse to make the entire kit(ex: Tervigon or Farseer on Jetbike). It really doesn't.

I've also never said "GW makes everything Chapterhouse makes". That's you putting words in my mouth. However, GW has stated that it is their goal to [i]produce a model for every unit entry in a Codex. Look at the Stormraven, the upcoming Skaven releases, etc. That in itself is proof that they're following through on it.

It is fair game for a company that does not complete it items, remember the whole thing about "supply over demand" GW does not or ever filled the "demand" part of their business. That why business like ChapterHouse is there for.

Absolute bollocks and you know it. GW own the IP, it is their right to release things as and when they see fit. This is categorically not any kind of permission for someone else to fill in in the meantime. CH are greedy little chancers, looking to make a fast buck on the back of someone elses hard work. Or perhaps you feel something like Movie Sequels are fair game for anyone to make, using the same IP, character names, setting etc?

Your Right that GW owns the IP, for the name, but they don't own either the artwork or design that does not exisit.

Except the artwork *does* exist. Tervigon etc are illustrated in the book. Thus CH keyed it to the apparent size from artwork provably not their own, and then used a copyrighted word to promote. Indeed, two copyrighted words...Tyranid, and Tervigon which in this context are very much GW's property.

Hence my opinion they are pretty much frakked. Not for selling the items per se, but selling them as Tyranid Tervigons, Salamander Shoulder Pads, Space Wolve Rhino doors and so on. THAT is what (if indeed anything, remember we're all still talking in hypotheticals for now) will hanf them in court. They have taken another persons IP, and made money from it. This is dishonest, and indeed theft if my understanding is correct.

Kanluwen wrote:

MajorTom11 wrote:Kan, just because there is some overlap in the offerings doesn't mean everything CH makes GW makes. The majority of stuff they have on there is not being made by GW atm. You have stated that point many times in the past 2 pages, it is misleading and incorrect in general bro. Where do I go if I want a tervigon kit right now? farseer on jetbike? Soul Drinker shoulder pads? Pre-heresy Jump packs? A giant tau-ish walker? Not to GW. They don't have it.

But therein is the problem. There seems to be a disconnect in that because "It's not being made by GW at the moment." makes it fair game for Chapterhouse to make the entire kit(ex: Tervigon or Farseer on Jetbike). It really doesn't.

I've also never said "GW makes everything Chapterhouse makes". That's you putting words in my mouth. However, GW has stated that it is their goal to [i]produce a model for every unit entry in a Codex. Look at the Stormraven, the upcoming Skaven releases, etc. That in itself is proof that they're following through on it.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not condoning or promoting 3rd party sales of GW i.p's, frankly I'm still torn on that front. I like the options I have as a consumer, but were I in GW's shoes, I can't say I would be out of order to take it to court either. My post was simply to say that CH does indeed provide a great deal of parts GW does not, whether or not GW makes them in the future doesn't bear on my point in that particular way... That would be an entirely different arguement, but I think I would probably say that if GW makes a Tervi kit, CH should probably stop selling theirs. Just my personal opinion, but so long as there was absolutely no overlap, I am ok with 3rd party bits.

Again, not saying it's fair or wrong, just CH does indeed fill some gaps, and from a strictly consumer point of view, that was a good thing.

Deadshane1 wrote:GW sueing Chapterhouse seems A LOT to me as if they're going after one of these successful merc painters.

Perhaps they're next. Merc painters provide something that GW themselves do not, and they're basically using GW's IP in order to do it.

Maybe I'm off track though.

I really doubt they'll ever go after any of the painters, simply because that's someone offering a service rather than a product.

Let's examine Tervigon.

If you search:

http://tess2.uspto.gov/bin/gate.exe?f=searchss&state=4004:fbh2bm.1.1 and
http://www.ipo.gov.uk/types/tm/t-os/t-find/t-find-adp?propnum=0671428001

you will see that Games Workshop has not bothered to register it as a Trademark.

Tervigon is obviously used in the copyrighted Tyranid Codex, but is using 1 word out of a book copyright infringement? I don't think so.

GW's stance appears to be that if they use a word nobody else can use it even if GW hasn't bothered to Trademark it.

Greedy chancers?

CH are ramoras picking up scraps from the shark

I really don't understand the vitriol tbh.
GW won't go bust due to small producers like CH

Interesting read...both the complaint that was linked as well as some of the comments posted in this thread. If you actually know what you are looking for, then there are a couple of gems in here, but I'll get to that later.

Polonius and Jenthkin have done a great job outlining various issues in U.S. IP law.

Speaking as an attorney, the first question I wondered was: Why Illinois? GW also brought in some concurrent Illinois IP law issues as well, which I am really not competent to discuss anthing on. GW's complaint was also very weird. My professional read of it made me think that either GW's IP attorneys have very little true understanding of what GW does and just added a bunch of junk GW provided for them, or that GW expressly wanted a lot of crap that is in the complaint to be in there, even though it basically has no legal relevance. The fact that Illinois is GW's largest U.S. market, and that Adepticon and a Gamesday are located there has no bearing on anything, jurisdictionally.

Another interesting coment was Paulson saying he is not connected to CHS in any way. Yet the strongest jurisdictional and venue argument GW has in the complaint is personal jurisdiction based on Paulson's state of residency being Illinois. Otherwise, CHS is a Texas company and domiciled there. I am sure part of GW's strategy was to file in a friendly jurisdiction as well as to make this as unpracticable for CHS as possible, by having to defend the suit in a court a thousand or so miles away.

It will be interesting to see how this plays out...

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:Greedy chancers?

CH are ramoras picking up scraps from the shark

I really don't understand the vitriol tbh.
GW won't go bust due to small producers like CH

I've got to agree with Chibi that I don't see the need for some of the venom that appears to be being directed at CH. As has been pointed out, they're exploiting a gap in the market, which is a very capitalist thing to do.

I'm not going to comment on the IP/copyright/trademark/etc side of things, as I don't understand the law. I must admit to liking the after-market modifications analogy, which I hadn't thought about before.

I do, however, think the market would be poorer if CH weren't around to offer the options that they do.

Kanluwen wrote:

Deadshane1 wrote:GW sueing Chapterhouse seems A LOT to me as if they're going after one of these successful merc painters.

Perhaps they're next. Merc painters provide something that GW themselves do not, and they're basically using GW's IP in order to do it.

Maybe I'm off track though.

I really doubt they'll ever go after any of the painters, simply because that's someone offering a service rather than a product.

Thats arguing semantics.

A paint job on a fully painted army is indeed a product. It's paint which is added to a GW model, just as CH's sculpted resin is added to a model.

At least that's the way I see it....like I said, I could be wrong.

I agree with you though, I dont see them going after the painters,but I sure wouldnt be surprised.

Dysartes wrote:

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:Greedy chancers?

CH are ramoras picking up scraps from the shark

I really don't understand the vitriol tbh.
GW won't go bust due to small producers like CH

I've got to agree with Chibi that I don't see the need for some of the venom that appears to be being directed at CH. As has been pointed out, they're exploiting a gap in the market, which is a very capitalist thing to do.

I'm not going to comment on the IP/copyright/trademark/etc side of things, as I don't understand the law. I must admit to liking the after-market modifications analogy, which I hadn't thought about before.

I do, however, think the market would be poorer if CH weren't around to offer the options that they do.

Right, to explain the vitriol.

You write a rulebook, and some background, even going so far as to develop artwork and create some models. Due to necessary budgetary contraints, you cannot release everything at once. So you plan it in waves. Then, as soon as it proves popular, some little scrote nips in and 'fills in the gaps' whilst you wait for the capital to do the next wave. This eats into your potential earnings from the next wave and indeed could pose a problem if the design you come up with is too similar to theirs, as they could indeed claim you've now ripped them off.

Is that, or is that not the act of a greedy little chancer purely on the make?

Mr Mystery wrote:

Dysartes wrote:

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:Greedy chancers?

CH are ramoras picking up scraps from the shark

I really don't understand the vitriol tbh.
GW won't go bust due to small producers like CH

I've got to agree with Chibi that I don't see the need for some of the venom that appears to be being directed at CH. As has been pointed out, they're exploiting a gap in the market, which is a very capitalist thing to do.

I'm not going to comment on the IP/copyright/trademark/etc side of things, as I don't understand the law. I must admit to liking the after-market modifications analogy, which I hadn't thought about before.

I do, however, think the market would be poorer if CH weren't around to offer the options that they do.

Right, to explain the vitriol.

You write a rulebook, and some background, even going so far as to develop artwork and create some models. Due to necessary budgetary contraints, you cannot release everything at once. So you plan it in waves. Then, as soon as it proves popular, some little scrote nips in and 'fills in the gaps' whilst you wait for the capital to do the next wave. This eats into your potential earnings from the next wave and indeed could pose a problem if the design you come up with is too similar to theirs, as they could indeed claim you've now ripped them off.

Is that, or is that not the act of a greedy little chancer purely on the make?

That's biased toward GW however. Not entirely fair.

Is it CH's fault/problem that GW doesnt have the capital/will to immediatly follow thru? I dont beleive it is.

Nope, but their willingness to breach IP isn't GWs problem either. Nor is the resultant lawsuit. As has been cleared up already, GW are obliged to protect their IP, and appear to be doing so.

Mr Mystery brings up the reasons why we have IP laws. Excellent points!

Mr Mystery wrote:Nope, but their willingness to breach IP isn't GWs problem either. Nor is the resultant lawsuit. As has been cleared up already, GW are obliged to protect their IP, and appear to be doing so.

And I suppose that's the issue, are they breaking IP laws.

It's been mentioned before...you CAN buy aftermarket parts for cars. Those companies apparently are not breaking "IP".

But can you buy aftermarket parts for sculptures?

Mr Mystery wrote:

Dysartes wrote:

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:Greedy chancers?

CH are ramoras picking up scraps from the shark

I really don't understand the vitriol tbh.
GW won't go bust due to small producers like CH

I've got to agree with Chibi that I don't see the need for some of the venom that appears to be being directed at CH. As has been pointed out, they're exploiting a gap in the market, which is a very capitalist thing to do.

I'm not going to comment on the IP/copyright/trademark/etc side of things, as I don't understand the law. I must admit to liking the after-market modifications analogy, which I hadn't thought about before.

I do, however, think the market would be poorer if CH weren't around to offer the options that they do.

Right, to explain the vitriol.

You write a rulebook, and some background, even going so far as to develop artwork and create some models. Due to necessary budgetary contraints, you cannot release everything at once. So you plan it in waves. Then, as soon as it proves popular, some little scrote nips in and 'fills in the gaps' whilst you wait for the capital to do the next wave. This eats into your potential earnings from the next wave and indeed could pose a problem if the design you come up with is too similar to theirs, as they could indeed claim you've now ripped them off.

Is that, or is that not the act of a greedy little chancer purely on the make?

Brah, our entire economic system is based on Greed versus Fear (or lack of initiative) bound by Constraints (or lack of capacity).

You can argue that CH breaks the rule or breaks laws, or you can argue that GW is not affected by secondary market offerings. You can't argue that an entrepreneur is not expected to immediately cater to a demand pull if they are able to do so in an economically rational manner.