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An Ordenstaat can still make a lucky hit. It's ten percent less propable, but an Ordenstaat rat deals one point more damage on the rest of the attacks. It's lucky is better(3 on armor, 1 on VY) just more rare, and the Ordenstaat's crit is also better and have the same propability.

In short, luckies are great, but enemies on heavy armor rarely have 1 or 2 VY(I don't know any). Means, you have to smash down the armor regardless of lucky chance. You have to be really lucky to aproach someone and roll up enough luckys and crits to get it down whitout smashing it's armor to zero first.

I was leaning more toward using Militia against medium armored or shield based opponents. If something is in heavy armor, It will likely make more than one attack, and see Rat Raiders as little threat.

Additionally, when not making Anti-charge Reactions, they can use their shields, giving the Targe back to the Militia, dealing 2 DE with it, which balances out against the Poleaxe.

So the basic Attack/Armor profile comparison is:

Militia 1 AP 2 DE + 2 DE, 3 AR
Orden 1 AP 3 DE + 1 DE, 2 AR

So the Militia has more armor and luckys on an 8
The Orden is immune to stuff and Cleaves.

I forgot about the shield... that balances things out.

But then does the Ordenstaat has to have Pike in addition to Poleax? Talking about WYSIWYG one would not expect a unit having two polearms. It looks like just complicates a lot of things. (but does give them anti-charge)

Nothing forces you to use the pike with ordenstaat you have the pike as per a normal rat raider. The minute you make him an ordenstaat rat, he has his pike but he also gains a poleaxe. As we said you choose which weapon you use in an attack...

And like I said, you shouldn't need to worry about modeling standard equipment....

Yes, you keep the Pike, it becomes a choice for an Ordenstaat Rat whether to use the pike or the poleax. Only Shields and Body Armor replace lower levels.

I'm not a fan of WYSIWYG, and as you said, its contradictory to how Brushfire works. As long as it is easy to identify different models (I gave all the ones with poleaxes cape bodies... I gave all the medium armor models helmeted heads...etc). The tourney scene will need to decide on their own if WYSIWYG is something they need.

The Ordenstaat is a special case. The new Ordenstaat Faction will have a model that is just the Ordenstaat Rat Raider, and will get a model of its own in the future (including a poleax), which Vandal players can use to represent the variant.

What I worry about is that the game is going towards these wierd things like a unit carries two polearms. It's not the same as the Warlord's sword later becomes a Bastard Sword and the sword becomes redundant with it's same kind but weaker stats, the pike and the poleax are different weapons.

It's not even that the Ordeenstat rat carries both which is borderline rdiculous by itself, but the reasoning is creepy: It can because the poleax is some kind of upgrade equipment but it's doesn't overrides the basic equipment, but adds itself to the equipment litst.

It's not an upgrade. Armor upgrades as the old one becomes redundant and useless, but this...

Getting better in the game is mostly learning these unexpected things like you can shoot untargettable things as long as you use template-based attacks and you can anti-charge/countershoot thanks to your otherwise redundant weapon. I find these things headscratching at best.

Another key thing to remember is that Brushfire's generic weapons are Generic. We give a name for easy reference to a profile, but it can be modeled different ways. The Mongoose Legionnaires, Weasel Fusiliers, Bull Regulars, and Otter Ashigaru all have Rifle as an option, and all three are using distinctly different forms of Rifles/Muskets.

So you could represent the Ordenstaat Rat's ability to make a 3DE Reach Attack however you like. One way to do it, since the Poleax doesn't have 'Extended Reach', is just trim the length of the weapon so that is different from your Dishonor Guard Rats.

 WhiteRoo wrote:
What I worry about is that the game is going towards these wierd things like a unit carries two polearms. It's not the same as the Warlord's sword later becomes a Bastard Sword and the sword becomes redundant with it's same kind but weaker stats, the pike and the poleax are different weapons.

It's not even that the Ordeenstat rat carries both which is borderline rdiculous by itself, but the reasoning is creepy: It can because the poleax is some kind of upgrade equipment but it's doesn't overrides the basic equipment, but adds itself to the equipment litst.

It's not an upgrade. Armor upgrades as the old one becomes redundant and useless, but this...

Getting better in the game is mostly learning these unexpected things like you can shoot untargettable things as long as you use template-based attacks and you can anti-charge/countershoot thanks to your otherwise redundant weapon. I find these things headscratching at best.

Except that a pike and a crossbow don't be come more or less unusable. All of the things that a rat raider, or ANY OTHER model in the game has as upgrade equipment are tools in the bag. Some games says, "Rat Raiders may replace their pikes with poleaxes" Brushfire isn't this way, and it is spelled out in the rules

I get it. Just when I try to teach the game, it leads a lot of WTF moments. I think it's really hard to follow as it is now, spelled out or not.

I one would expect that all equipment follows the same rule, but that's not the case. You upgrade your armor and your shield but you gain a new weapon on top of the others. I might think this because I assume some things based on other games but the game does not communicates the fact too clearly that this time it will be different(well, not for me, anyway).

If that's how it works, it might suggest to rephrase the unit sheets somehow like this:

Standard equipment: this and that,
Upgrade equipment: bigger shield, better armor
Additional purchasable equipment: extra weapon

I think this wouls clearly say that whatever is in the third category, it is added to the list and does not upgrades anything. "Upgrade" suggests that something is getting changed in the process.

 WhiteRoo wrote:
I get it. Just when I try to teach the game, it leads a lot of WTF moments. I think it's really hard to follow as it is now, spelled out or not.

It's not that hard to follow... "All models retain any equipment they had. So in purposes of this demo, our Tanuki Samurai has a sword, a dagger, medium armor, a bow, and a wakazashi." One of the pieces I just listed is an upgrade piece. He doesn't lose anything else... So our Tanuki is allowed in any phase to fight with 2 hands worth if equipment. So in the Shooting phase, he can use his bow (which says 2H). In the Charge/Melee phase, he can use either his sword and wakazashi, his sword and dagger, or his wakazashi and dagger.

Trust me, it's not that hard to follow, I gave at least 25 demos a few weeks ago, and at least 3 of them were to people under the age of 10...

I one would expect that all equipment follows the same rule, but that's not the case. You upgrade your armor and your shield but you gain a new weapon on top of the others. I might think this because I assume some things based on other games but the game does not communicates the fact too clearly that this time it will be different(well, not for me, anyway).

And technically your Militia Rats don't lose their heater when they gain a targe, nor do Dishonour Guard lose their light armor when they gain Medium Armor... If you read the entries for Basic Armor and Basic Shields in the armory section, it never says a model upgrades and loses previous equipment, it states that you may only apply the AR from a single Basic Armor and Basic Shield source.

When is the next update for download? I see there has been a lot of chatter here and since your aiming to wrap things up asap I'd like to see how much has changed for the better. Just incase there are still things standing out to me from before.

 Casey's Law wrote:
When is the next update for download? I see there has been a lot of chatter here and since your aiming to wrap things up asap I'd like to see how much has changed for the better. Just incase there are still things standing out to me from before.

You should have received an email since the 28th of April.

 Casey's Law wrote:
When is the next update for download? I see there has been a lot of chatter here and since your aiming to wrap things up asap I'd like to see how much has changed for the better. Just incase there are still things standing out to me from before.

Likely tomorrow, I'd like to finish another deck and have Matt do more fluff.

Yeh I'm sure I'll have the last email.

Tomorrow is good timing! If it's as soon as the next week I'll grab it and have a look through again.

Something I never realized until this chain of conversation: heroes can't join normal units without a special rule. Does that tend to make them particularly vulnerable to "sniping?"

 kenshivalion wrote:
Something I never realized until this chain of conversation: heroes can't join normal units without a special rule. Does that tend to make them particularly vulnerable to "sniping?"

Many of them can be 'sniped', but in most cases there are more important targets to deal with (The Tactician General is less scary than the 5 Badgers-At-Claw that are nearing charge range).

There is also no 'Auto-Lose' on the death of a Hero.

 Alfndrate wrote:

And technically your Militia Rats don't lose their heater when they gain a targe, nor do Dishonour Guard lose their light armor when they gain Medium Armor... If you read the entries for Basic Armor and Basic Shields in the armory section, it never says a model upgrades and loses previous equipment, it states that you may only apply the AR from a single Basic Armor and Basic Shield source.

But really, why? Is the game any better because of this? Do you really expect people when they write their army list they will write "light armor 1 AR" and then "medium armor 3 AR"? Wouldn't it be so much clearer if a unit just flat-out don't have the redundant equipment? Sure, it doesn't bother anyone, but it does not benefit the game either.

I think we don't see each-others point. I try to show you what I'm talking about.

If a model gets a Pavise as a standard and a Heater as an upgrade, now it has two shields. A Pavise is better when you are charged or shoot at than the Heather. So when you are being charged or shoot at you can use the Pavise's stats, since neither has Anti-charge, it's even the better option because more armor and shield armor of that.
In your meele phase you switch to your Heather because it's a held shield and you can shield bash with it. If you get attacked back it's better than the Pavise since that does not give armor or shield bash when you are just in close combat.

Don't you see how twisted this logic is? I would not expect anyone to switch shields in battle.

(A quick search revealed that only the Venture Co. Riflemunk uses Pavise and it cannot upgrade it to Heather, but still, if it could this would be possible. Right?)

And you don't just have to learn this - that's the easy part - you have to remember using it and the game does not help you with that. Rather it feels like it's hinding it.

For example, the Rat Raider:
Ordenstaat – Equipped with a Poleax, The Rat Raider has Immune to Shock, Immune to Fire, and Immune to Poison.
This whole converstation wouldn't happen if it would say: Equipped with a Poleax and a Pike, The Rat Raider has Immune to Shock, Immune to Fire, and Immune to Poison.

Yes, this is a direct consequence of the no equipment loose rule, but it would help so much. If you would just look at the Rat Raider card, it would make you remember that this guy also has a pike, and when your opponent questions your unexpected anti-charge, you can show it to him. But instead it says the Rat Raider's standard equipment is: Pike, Heather, Light Armor, atough no Rat Raider actually has this list of standard equipment. And after that, it says: County Training - A Rat Raider must choose one of the following Equipment & Special Rule Combinations as Standard Equipment. Again, why on earth would a unit have two polearms as it's standard equipment. (Yes, I know but bare with me). Furthermore it doesn't say "additional standard equipment" so cobining the last two logical thoght, the Ordeenstat Rat Raider might loose it's Pike in favor of the Poleax.

It's not just about the Rat Raider either, the game is full of these kind of hidden things.

Again, it's not that I don't get it. I am trying to give feedback about the book and I feel the game can be improved here.

If I remember correctly this was brought up before, it was definitely something that bothered me that's for sure. I think you've hit the nail on the head this time though Roo, the concept of a warrior changing their armour or swapping to a different shield is really strange. It's a very off putting concept and sucks the fun out of playing.

I'm wondering why the decision was made to keep this in?

I see where he is coming from after doing a little investigation. An older copy of the rulebook (using the rat raiders as an example) says, "May choose" in terms of the Country Training Special ability. It also says, "gains a [piece of equipment]" With the cards and the current pdf, it says, "Must choose" as standard equipment and says "Equipped" with instead of gains. I can definitely see why is is confusing.

A clearer way to state Country Training, and other similar abilities might be to say,
"County Training - A Rat Raider must choose one of the following Equipment & Special Rule Combinations as part of their Standard Equipment."

or

County Training - A Rat Raider must choose one of the following Equipment & Special Rule Combinations as Standard Equipment.
Militia – Gains a Targe, The Rat Raider makes Lucky Hits on an 8+.

I had a lot more written about your other points, but I feel you're adding issues that don't actually exist, I can post them if you want, they're definitely "pre-coffee" Alf rather than the "post-coffee" state I'm currently in. So they might be more terse...

The rules were worded a certain way so we did not need to write a list that people would need to carry around indicating what was redundant to what.

Originally, RAI the Shields and Armor were the only thing that replaced their upgrades. But as you've pointed out, That doesnt work with Pavises and Held Shields.

But a pavise is also what is known as a standing shield, they were not held, a soldier would place it in the ground in front of them to protect against attacks (much like the shields that come with the Ribenguo soldiers.) So a soldier could wield a Heater and have a Pavise on the ground in front of him.

As for logical inconsistencies, many Spear users carried other weapons, perhaps a pike and a poleax were not 'back up' weapons in such occasions, but again this was intended to slmplfy the rules. We have to balance between Logic, Clarity, Simplicity, and Brevity.

We could include a passage about weapon switching to highlight these concepts, but I feel they add, not detract from the strategy of the game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Weapon Swapping

Many units in Brushfire can end up with more equipment than they know what to do with. Each phase, the player can elect to choose different equipment to hold in it’s two hands. A Conscript can choose to use their Sword in the Melee Phase, after using their Bow in the Ranged Phase. A Rat Raider can choose to use their Pike to gain Anti-Charge against an opponent, after having used its Poleaxe on the previous turn.

Any held equipment changes must be declared during the Phase, before any dice are rolled, and changes cannot be declared more than once per phase.

Adding this into the Equipment rules.

I found this line on the equipment tags part:

"#AR - Incoming damage is reduced by this amount before applying to VY. A Model may count AR from one of Light Armor, Medium Armor, or Heavy Armor. A Model may count AR from one of Pavise, Heater, or Targe. All other equipment that provides Armor bonuses stack with these."

It doesn't say when that model have to decide wich armor and shield it want to account or how long. It clearly states that despite a model having better item it can choose the weaker one.

And now, some fun game theory

Let's say you can change wich shiled and armor you are wearing per activation.

One unit that has upgraded from his light armor to medium and from Heather to Tagre defends against multiple members of the Rubenguo's Seven Wonderers. They activate one by one and armor does not refreshes when they pass activation from one to the next. The first wanderer attacks and burns this model's armor and shield armor, then comes the secound. Now armor does not refreshes, this time, but this unit still has a secound set of armor and shield that still holds some extra points(theoretically you keep your redundant stuff), so in theory, this unit can switch now to it's secoundary armor and shield to gain some extra edge.

I know this is sillybones, but following the game's logic, it can work, or do I'm missing something?

Then we will clarify that it does not work that way.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Addendum to the Weapon Swapping Entry:

Light Armor, Medium Armor, and Heavy Armor may not be swapped. The one that provides the highest bonus is always considered equipped.

Pavises, Heaters, and Targes may not be swapped. At the beginning of the game, the player must choose which Shield a model has equipped.

 Alfndrate wrote:

I had a lot more written about your other points, but I feel you're adding issues that don't actually exist, I can post them if you want, they're definitely "pre-coffee" Alf rather than the "post-coffee" state I'm currently in. So they might be more terse...

The issue with the Pavise-Heather switch may not exist yet, but I think - or rather, I really hope so - a lot of new units will come out. It might be a problem later.

Please do tell me if I'm going too far. I have the tendency to do so.

 WhiteRoo wrote:

 Alfndrate wrote:

I had a lot more written about your other points, but I feel you're adding issues that don't actually exist, I can post them if you want, they're definitely "pre-coffee" Alf rather than the "post-coffee" state I'm currently in. So they might be more terse...

The issue with the Pavise-Heather switch may not exist yet, but I think - or rather, I really hope so - a lot of new units will come out. It might be a problem later.

Please do tell me if I'm going too far. I have the tendency to do so.

In my own personal, not tied to On the Lamb Games in anyway, opinion, I feel you're going too far, you're nitpicking things that don't exist in the game. And Pavise and Heaters haven't existed in the game on the same unit and probably won't, and if they do, we'll simply add a line to that unit's card allowing them to ignore the weapon swapping addendums that we've written today.

My addendum a few posts up should solve this problem.

I saw

You know, I reall like the Idea of having pavises separated from the units. Maybe a unit may pick up a pavise and move around with it loosing attack power and gaining defense agiainst ranged attacks during that time. Then it can drop it and go wild.

Then maybe the enemy comes and pick them up for the same purpose.

You could make shield walls and roman turtles with them. How cool that would be, no?

Another slight addendum:

Heaters and Targes may be swapped with other weapons, but not with each other.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Mantlets in the Fortifcations/Siege Weapons section function much like your concept. Mantlets are bigger 'rolling' shields pushed around when assaulting castles.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
After reviewing the army lists. Only 3 things had Pavises, and theyve been converted into Heaters or had other changes to make up for it. As such, the Pavise is being removed from the Rules.

Scroll up a little incase you missed Matt's multiple appended posts.

I'm going to begin the process of rendering an updated PDF/Updating WargameVault.. watch your Inboxes in the next 30-40min.

Excellent, I'll probably download it tomorrow.