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For me, Itar's Workshop either met or somewhat exceeded expectations. They were a little delayed, but absolutely no more than you'd expect -- and their communications were fantastic throughout.

 spiralingcadaver wrote:
The others aren't miniatures-related so aren't so relevant, but suffice to say other games with nice presentation but disappointing content.

I'm guessing you're talking non-miniature boardgames and/or roleplaying games, and I no longer back them. either. At least with a miniatures boardgame, I can use the miniatures in another game. No point buying an "okay" game when you already have a closet full of them. The OLGS will have the retail game at 30% off or more, and can toss in free shipping.

Arcadia Quests' KS cost was $100 plus $10 shipping to the US. You can get the base set from the BoardGameWarehouse OLGS for $60 as their regular discount. That means you paid $50 for the free exclusives. For the OCD's that's still a good price, but not everyone buys all the expansions of a retail product, so if you don't need all the game content, then retail is an option. No drama, either.

KS does allow a company to put out more expansions than it normally would. DOOM the boardgame had a second expansion planned, but retail funds didn't support it, so it never came out. I doubt the expensive Cthulhu Wars game can support the 15+ expansions for the game.

Anyway, for R&B, I'll put it on my long list of "interested in" games and see what 2015 Black Friday has on sale. Picked up Skull and Shackles from Cardhaus at 50% off this year. Woohoo!

KS? What KS?

ced1106 wrote:

Arcadia Quests' KS cost was $100 plus $10 shipping to the US. You can get the base set from the BoardGameWarehouse OLGS for $60 as their regular discount. That means you paid $50 for the free exclusives. For the OCD's that's still a good price, but not everyone buys all the expansions of a retail product, so if you don't need all the game content, then retail is an option. No drama, either.

KS does allow a company to put out more expansions than it normally would. DOOM the boardgame had a second expansion planned, but retail funds didn't support it, so it never came out. I doubt the expensive Cthulhu Wars game can support the 15+ expansions for the game.

This is one of the major issues with game designs intended to 'get money' via KS. You have two choices... Design a game at a price point which we all know will be much higher than retail, or design a game which needs extreme expansions to have variety.

AQ, is a great game, but I can buy the game retail for much cheaper than the KS... and the exclusives, while nice, simply are not needed. I know lots of people who would like AQ and need nothing more than the base set and just should pay the 60$

Myth is the other extreme... The base box set is UNPLAYABLE and INCOMPLETE. You literally get an incomplete game without extreme expansions and the cost for basic variety is to the tune of 400$ retail, all for a very poorly designed game.

Then you have games like DOOM where backers backed with the expectation of expansions and are now left with a game which is going to lack replay value without the future expansions.

In almost every example... companies need to basically trick people into pre-paying for a product, either by the threat of exclusives, the illusion of extreme value too good to miss or the promise of future support. When compared to retail releases which have to actually survive by making a 'good product' with 'good value' and 'good replay' or else risk ultra failure.

I have stopped backing KS for gameplay. I only back for models I want as I can see a model and know what I am getting and I can decide if the pre-sale value is worth the wait.

nkelsch wrote:
This is one of the major issues with game designs intended to 'get money' via KS. You have two choices... Design a game at a price point which we all know will be much higher than retail, or design a game which needs extreme expansions to have variety.

In almost every example... companies need to basically trick people into pre-paying for a product, either by the threat of exclusives, the illusion of extreme value too good to miss or the promise of future support. When compared to retail releases which have to actually survive by making a 'good product' with 'good value' and 'good replay' or else risk ultra failure.

I have stopped backing KS for gameplay. I only back for models I want as I can see a model and know what I am getting and I can decide if the pre-sale value is worth the wait.

Question, where do you see Soda Pop Miniatures' Super Dungeon Explore : Forgotten King? IMO, the SDE:FK base game and base pledge are a good value, with good replay, as an evolution of a known good product. I didn't feel like there were any tricks or gimmicks in the campaign, though there were many non-exclusive expansions that unlocked. They are supposed to deliver (late) in a few months.

Yeah, I'm pretty happy with the SDE kickstarter too.

Just to clarify, in my post, DOOM was the old FFG game based on the video game. Didn't know there was a DOOM KS game, though!

I'm less cynical about Forgotten Kings. The game ended up "$100 for 100 miniatures" so I didn't back it. But if you looked at SPM's releases for the SDE game, you had two big box expansions and two smaller expansions -- but the smaller expansions didn't have any new sculpts. So, other than the single-miniature expansions, SPM was not releasing new content. (At least, as a boardgamer, I don't perceive single-miniature expansions as the same as boxed ones.)

So... I personally think KS was good for SPM, because, under the traditional retailer-distributor model, they haven't been able to release multiple-miniature expansions with new sculpts. Once FK hits the market, I might think otherwise if they keep putting out standalone sets like CMON did with Zombicide!

@ced - SDE released Nov. 2011 - 3 years ago. Via CMoN, SPM released basically a major expansion every year prior to the KS launch, which easily doubles the new content. I'm not sure how or why you discount Roxor or Von Drak, but they're quite fun.

The KS was great for SPM, because it catapults them into having a much larger set of product that doesn't have any CMoN linkages. I don't think they're following the Zombicide model of annual editions, but we'll see what they do.

 spiralingcadaver wrote:


I increasingly felt Myth was unprofessionally executed the more I played it, and didn't like their weird overzealous christian thing.

Glad to hear this, I felt like I was the only one who found the strong religious theme coursing through the game incredibly odd. Especially for a high fantasy game of slaughtering bad guys by the dozens.

It probably wouldn't have been as noticeable if it was the usual made up fantasy faiths. Not a decision I would have chosen to make as a designer.

It got my mind off wandering and thinking if we'll see any clergymen or missionaries in some form in Recon.

 highlord tamburlaine wrote:

 spiralingcadaver wrote:


I increasingly felt Myth was unprofessionally executed the more I played it, and didn't like their weird overzealous christian thing.

Glad to hear this, I felt like I was the only one who found the strong religious theme coursing through the game incredibly odd. Especially for a high fantasy game of slaughtering bad guys by the dozens.

Lots of us noticed, and it really bugged me as well, but there were so many other problems with that fiasco it was hard to know which ones to focus on.

 cincydooley wrote:

 spiralingcadaver wrote:
Yeah, I'm in a similar spot, where unless the minis are great, I'm pretty wary about not seeing any sort of independent reviews after a few games. I felt pretty burned by a few recently, so it's taking more and more for me to consider just about anything.

Out of curiosity, what do you feel burned by?

Should we mention Sedition Wars here?

You're of course entitled to your opinion but, since you've used the collective "we," mine is that, while Sedition Wars was far from perfect when it came out, I've had far worse 1st editions and quite like where the game eventually ended up, even if it took some beating to get there.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
@ced - SDE released Nov. 2011 - 3 years ago. Via CMoN, SPM released basically a major expansion every year prior to the KS launch, which easily doubles the new content. I'm not sure how or why you discount Roxor or Von Drak, but they're quite fun.

SDE has the advantage of already having a lineage and their initial game out there for a few years - so the long-term quality of the game is far less of a gamble for backers - so they can afford to not be so crazy with the add-ons being KS exclusive. Zombicide could easily do this by now, but they're part of the CMoN business model which is heavily weighed towards being a pre-order of products as front-loaded as possible.

Out of interest, are Roxor or Von Drak's rules made redundant by the new edition? I don't remember at this point.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 spiralingcadaver wrote:
You're of course entitled to your opinion but, since you've used the collective "we," mine is that, while Sedition Wars was far from perfect when it came out, I've had far worse 1st editions and quite like where the game eventually ended up, even if it took some beating to get there.

It's fine for you (or anyone else) to like it. I was using a larger "we" in terms of the gaming community who felt badly burned by the POS.

 Azazelx wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
@ced - SDE released Nov. 2011 - 3 years ago. Via CMoN, SPM released basically a major expansion every year prior to the KS launch, which easily doubles the new content. I'm not sure how or why you discount Roxor or Von Drak, but they're quite fun.

SDE has the advantage of already having a lineage and their initial game out there for a few years - so the long-term quality of the game is far less of a gamble for backers - so they can afford to not be so crazy with the add-ons being KS exclusive. Zombicide could easily do this by now, but they're part of the CMoN business model which is heavily weighed towards being a pre-order of products as front-loaded as possible.

Out of interest, are Roxor or Von Drak's rules made redundant by the new edition? I don't remember at this point.

They are - you'll have to get an upgrade deck for each of them IIRC. Backers got all three decks included in the base pledge already though.

 Azazelx wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:
Out of curiosity, what do you feel burned by?

Should we mention Sedition Wars here?

The less said about that turd of a game, the better. Sedition Wars had decent (monopose) models hamstrung by easily the worst set of mechanics, stats, and scenarios in modern memory. As a toolkit to create a SHulk-like boardgame, it's got nice components, but grossly overpriced at $100, considering it basically unplayable out of the box.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Azazelx wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
@ced - SDE released Nov. 2011 - 3 years ago. Via CMoN, SPM released basically a major expansion every year prior to the KS launch, which easily doubles the new content. I'm not sure how or why you discount Roxor or Von Drak, but they're quite fun.

SDE has the advantage of already having a lineage and their initial game out there for a few years - so the long-term quality of the game is far less of a gamble for backers - so they can afford to not be so crazy with the add-ons being KS exclusive.

Out of interest, are Roxor or Von Drak's rules made redundant by the new edition?

SPM's SDE:FK has basically no KS exclusives that hit the tabletop. The only exclusives are the metal coin (in addition to the , the coloring book, and the storage box - none of which drive gameplay.

Roxor and Von Drak will all get 2nd edition stats cards and rules consistent with the new edition.

And yet that same community continues to give Mantic money for the garbage they continue to churn out, yet hardly anyone points it out.

Blows my mind, really.

I point it out to myself every time I back a Mantic campaign, then drop my pledge.

Mantic make good rules and (now) good scenery. Those two points are pretty universally acknowledged. The masses of crappy figures are easily skippable at this point, and as I said several times in the DKQ thread when people were arguing the "great value" of the figures, I don't value their boardgame plastic figures anywhere near what I do proper miniatures, especially Mantic's sculpts.

Sedition Wars' sculpts ranged from decent in the initial box, but in horrible restic to worse than awful with the wave 2 stuff. The rules... well, SC seems to like them, and I'm sure he's not the only one, but to me they're not worth my time to try and work out at this point - I have better things to play (Including product from both Mantic and CMoN amongst others)...

Mantic's minis are horrible, most of their line looks deformed.

Sedition Wars is so bad they are rebooting. Already. Basically it died the day it was released.

Before we get too far astray, let me say I do agree with some of the points, and being a bit closer to CMoN than most, I probably view Sedition Wars with a gentler hand. Like I said, I'm still pretty darn happy with the Sedition Wars minis, and I still like the virus mechanic in the rules quite a bit. With that being said, I'll certainly concede that there were (and are) rules problems and understand if people don't have interest in trying to muddle through them.

I'm really looking forward to playing a near complete copy of R&B at CMoN Expo (and maybe even Adepticon, if I go) and can't wait to get a competitive scene going. I think the game will make for very fun, quick tournaments and has a whole lot of potential moving forward.

 cincydooley wrote:
With that being said, I'll certainly concede that there were (and are) rules problems and understand if people don't have interest in trying to muddle through them.

Sedition Wars had model And rules problems - bit of a fatal concoction, that.

I agree with what a lot of earlier posters said regarding R&B - models are too variable for my tastes (and this is a model-based game!), but if the rules are good, that's something at least.

I stayed in for $1 but am not planning to up it atm, as my board game funds have gone to a few other campaigns, and I'm spoiled for choice on just miniatures... and this is kind of in no mans land between the two.

I wish we could get a better KSes of 2015 calendar going forward so I knew when/how to budget my money.

So far we know we have:

Conan - Jan 2015
The Others/Bood Rage - Feb 2015
WWX New Factions - March 2015
The Others/Blood Rage - April 2015

I'm sure there's more. Like I said, would love to be able to put together a calendar.

Salt in at least 3 Mierce Darklands KS in there, add in regular INFINITY releases and I'm pretty much tapped out for 2015 already!

Are we getting RIVET WARS 2 too?

 Alpharius wrote:

Are we getting RIVET WARS 2 too?

I'd definitely expect that in 2015 Ted has been putting up WIP stuff on facebook for a good while now - https://www.facebook.com/RivetWars
Blood Rage seems to have the February slot so The Others is probably April.
Deadzone Infestation is most likely end of January or beginning of February
Impacts! Chibi Dungeon Adventurers 2 is provisionally February

 Piston Honda wrote:
Sedition Wars is so bad they are rebooting. Already.

Rebooting SedWars can only be a good thing, if they revisit it as a simple SHulk d6 game. If it's just a band-aid of exploding d6s, 6+ wounds per model, it's another waste of time.

 Alpharius wrote:

Are we getting RIVET WARS 2 too?

I'm really hoping the KS for that is LATE 2015, and the damn things don't arrive until early 2017. I have sooo many rivets still to paint from the first one.

Schmapdi wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:

Are we getting RIVET WARS 2 too?

I'm really hoping the KS for that is LATE 2015, and the damn things don't arrive until early 2017. I have sooo many rivets still to paint from the first one.

WHY YOU NO ENTER MY CONTEST?!

 cincydooley wrote:

Schmapdi wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:

Are we getting RIVET WARS 2 too?

I'm really hoping the KS for that is LATE 2015, and the damn things don't arrive until early 2017. I have sooo many rivets still to paint from the first one.

WHY YOU NO ENTER MY CONTEST?!

I was busy with painting Christmas presents for people; which I believe I said in the thread you made for the contest.

Schmapdi wrote:


I was busy with painting Christmas presents for people; which I believe I said in the thread you made for the contest.

Oh wait. You did.

For future ones, what do you suggest is an appropriate time frame to give people? I thought 30+ days was solid, but do you think it needs to be more?

Hey Cincy, not having any RW minis, I didn't pay attention, but I've been in a few competitions, and 30 days is plenty. Some times it's the wrong time of year or there just isn't the right interest in painting, which sucks, but a month is plenty of time unless your only categories are really time-consuming things.

 spiralingcadaver wrote:
Hey Cincy, not having any RW minis,

This is actually the big thing I didn't consider with the contest: There are lots of painters that simply don't have the models. Huge brain fart on my behalf.