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I wouldn't make too much of it until they go 'Sold Out - No Longer Available' on the U.K. site (and the Chaos Space Marine Starter Collection, the Favoured of Chaos and the Start Collecting! Chaos Space Marines boxes have) . For example, the Seraphon Carnosaur went out of stock on the U.S. website several months ago and now is showing as 'Temporarily Out of Stock'.

 Ghaz wrote:
I wouldn't make too much of it until they go 'Sold Out - No Longer Available' on the U.K. site. For example, the Seraphon Carnosaur went out of stock on the U.S. website several months ago and now is showing as 'Temporarily Out of Stock'.

it could also be something as simple as a repackaging, I notice you can buy the start collecting boxes with a index these days, perhaps GW is slowly shifting over towards that.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:
I wouldn't make too much of it until they go 'Sold Out - No Longer Available' on the U.K. site. For example, the Seraphon Carnosaur went out of stock on the U.S. website several months ago and now is showing as 'Temporarily Out of Stock'.

it could also be something as simple as a repackaging, I notice you can buy the start collecting boxes with a index these days, perhaps GW is slowly shifting over towards that.

That would be the Chaos Space Marine Starter Collection, which is listed as 'Sold Out - No Longer Available'.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 insaniak wrote:
I would rather something akin to 4th edition's Trait system, to be honest. Do away with Chapter-specific lists entirely (because we've had examples in the fluff of even Ultramarine companies fighting differently to the Chapter norm, depending on the situation and who's in charge) and just let people tailor their own armies to suit their chosen fluff the way they feel works best.

The problem with the Traits system from 4th Ed, which was also the problem with the Doctrine system the Guard had, is that the downsides weren't downsides, so you were getting bonuses for free.

For instance, one Trait that the Marines could take was "No Allies". Well, if you never intended on taking allies (and back then allies meant Inquisition/GKs/SoBs and that's it), then it wasn't really a downside. Same for Doctrines. You lost the ability to take a bunch of units (Ogryn, Sanctioned Psykers, Ratlings, etc.) but if you never intended to bring those units then you weren't really losing anything.

The same thing happened with the 3.5 Codex. Iron Warriors have to give up 2 slots they were never going to use in the first place? Oh no!!!

Why is that a problem, though?

Because there is no real point including a bunch of different penalties from which players have to choose if some of those penalties don't actually do anything... Players are always going to choose those options, at which point, why bother?

Sooo, when are we expecting pics of the non-DI Primaris kits? I'm intrigued to see what the characters are like and whether the stealthy-gits might serve as a good basis for truescale HH Recon Marines.

 Yodhrin wrote:
Sooo, when are we expecting pics of the non-DI Primaris kits? I'm intrigued to see what the characters are like and whether the stealthy-gits might serve as a good basis for truescale HH Recon Marines.

July WD must be hitting late in the month, since we should have seen it by now. I really hope the Stealthy Guys aren't the only CC-focuses Primaris outside of characters.

I am hoping the characters are not monopose, but they probably will be.

 insaniak wrote:
Because there is no real point including a bunch of different penalties from which players have to choose if some of those penalties don't actually do anything... Players are always going to choose those options, at which point, why bother?

And if that's how anyone is looking at it then they are missing the point. It even says word for word on the preceding page:

"You will find that the Chapter Trait rules are all about creating small variations to add colour to your Chapter, they are not about creating more powerful army compositions."
- Codex: Space Marines 4th Edition, pg 42

The purpose of the system was so that you could design a tactic to reflect your chapters level of divergence from the Codex Astartes, tactical specialty, and the drawbacks suffered as a result of their uneven tactical focus. So yeah you could intentionally pick a "useless" drawback, but it's really no different from a player in 7th fielding Super Friends. Or if you want a less pointed example, someone fielding a list entirely of bikes and Land Speeders with bolt weapons and then declaring Imperial Fist tactics so that they can reroll 1s.

Also H.M.B.C and you clearly don't remember the trait system very well because all of the bonuses had some sort of cost built into them in addition to the drawbacks you had to select, which is more than can be said of the later edition chapter tactics. For example, "Be Swift As the Wind" lets you take bike squads in the Elite slot, but those bikers MUST pay +3pts/model for either Tank Hunter or Furious Assault. However, all bike squads taken as Troops MUST now be at least 5 models strong (normally 2-4). Also any biker can take the Expert Rider skill, however it'll still cost you +2pts/model. And that's not including that you now must take at least a Minor Drawback which will be some sort of overarching force org or skill restriction.

Also most of the bonuses are pretty similar in formula to that, where you can shuffle units around in the force org chart or add some non-standard skill to a specific unit type, but always at the penalty of being forced to invest extra points on forced upgrades. The bonuses are not in any way free.

Heck the most "expensive" one is probably Suffer Not the Alien to Live which gives all of your non-vehicle models Preferred Enemy against Tyranids, both Eldar, or Orks (you pick one) at +1pt/non-vehicle model in your army. But it also states, "The choice of Preferred Enemy should be apparent from trophies and other embellishments on the models." So get ready to bust out your wallet or bitsbox for that one...

But thats what people has said Jack Flask.

You give those special bonuses a point cost, or give them real drawbacks.

The problem is when they are free, or cheaper than they should, or the drawbacks are non-existan or they are so irrelevant that is equal to being non existant.

next WD release date is 7th July.

 bubber wrote:
next WD release date is 7th July.

So hopefully we should have some clarity on the Primaris in a week or two.

To prevent earthquake-ish WD leaks hitting the web before GW had a chance to introduce new product it is a quite safe bet there will be SM-related WarCom articles throughout next week. Sometimes they start mid-week, sometimes earlier

Jack Flask wrote:
Also H.M.B.C and you clearly don't remember the trait system very well because all of the bonuses had some sort of cost built into them in addition to the drawbacks you had to select, which is more than can be said of the later edition chapter tactics. For example, "Be Swift As the Wind" lets you take bike squads in the Elite slot, but those bikers MUST pay +3pts/model for either Tank Hunter or Furious Assault. However, all bike squads taken as Troops MUST now be at least 5 models strong (normally 2-4). Also any biker can take the Expert Rider skill, however it'll still cost you +2pts/model. And that's not including that you now must take at least a Minor Drawback which will be some sort of overarching force org or skill restriction.

No I remember it perfectly well, and those things you are describing aren't really drawbacks. Have to take tank hunters? Expert rider costs points? Pay points for abilities? You're just describing army creation.

If you can't see why a system that makes you give up things you were going to take in the first place to gain advantages is fundamentally broken then there's really no help for you...

Yeah, there won't be a traits system. If there is anything, i expect it will be like The Stormcasts Warhosts: ie, have to pay points and build your army a certain way.

So unless you build your army in a certain way, you dont get Chapter Tactics, which could help curb some of the sillier things.

 Crazyterran wrote:
Yeah, there won't be a traits system. If there is anything, i expect it will be like The Stormcasts Warhosts: ie, have to pay points and build your army a certain way.

So unless you build your army in a certain way, you dont get Chapter Tactics, which could help curb some of the sillier things.

If by "a certain way" you mean build a detachment that is exclusively composed of a single chapter, sure.

I think there is a decent possibility of a traits system. Otherwise, people that play with successor chapters, like say Lamentors, never get access to Special Characters that can buff their own army,

 Mr_Rose wrote:

 Crazyterran wrote:
Yeah, there won't be a traits system. If there is anything, i expect it will be like The Stormcasts Warhosts: ie, have to pay points and build your army a certain way.

So unless you build your army in a certain way, you dont get Chapter Tactics, which could help curb some of the sillier things.

If by "a certain way" you mean build a detachment that is exclusively composed of a single chapter, sure.

I mean like the Stormhosts in AoS, for example, like Hallowed Knights Warrior Chamber (which costs 100 points) requires you to take a Lords of the Storm Batallion, and limits what other Batallions you can take (that would get the Hallowed Knigths special rules).

Its not free special rules like what you are insinuating, and GW should make us pay to get them by forcing restrictions on our list building. One of the problems before was that White Scars were hilarously unbalanced compared to the other tactics, but it would be less of an issue if
White Scars had to pay to get access to it.

https://17890-presscdn-0-51-pagely.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/NewStormcastSection3Content.jpg

I could also see a system like the Kharadon Overlord Code system being put into place (which from what I gather is itself reminiscent of the Doctrines and Traits from 4th, but not as powerful).

Is there anything coming out in this WD that wasn't already leaked or Previewed?

 SickSix wrote:
Is there anything coming out in this WD that wasn't already leaked or Previewed?

Supposedly quite a bit. A flyer, a couple of character blisters (one of them being a Reiver--stealth armored, cloaked "assassin"-y Primaris with twin blades and a skull helm), the full kits for the stuff from Dark Imperium, and a Gravis armored unit.

I think it was Hastings that posted a general list and some of it(Reiver being one of them) being speculation that was tacked on later.

Also! Found out "Reivers" isn't just GW trademarkery.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:
I wouldn't make too much of it until they go 'Sold Out - No Longer Available' on the U.K. site. For example, the Seraphon Carnosaur went out of stock on the U.S. website several months ago and now is showing as 'Temporarily Out of Stock'.

it could also be something as simple as a repackaging, I notice you can buy the start collecting boxes with a index these days, perhaps GW is slowly shifting over towards that.

Yeah, I saw something similar (no langer available) and searched GW for that product and they had sold out and right next to the exact same product as "preorder" and it later turned out to be a repackaging...

New stuff!! https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/06/25/new-primaris-space-marines-and-death-guard-announced/
I particularly like the librarian.

Preview of Reivers up as well.



Yeah, as I feared, they have edgy helmets.
The rest of the model is fine though.

Holy Cow! Now I'm glad I didn't trade off my primaris stuff to get more DG.
Wonder what the prices are going to be on all those cool new toys

Here we go

I'm quite eager to see the helmeted option for t he Primaris Librarian.

Love the look of the plague marines and the libraian. Have too many poxwalkers already

darthryan wrote:
Love the look of the plague marines and the libraian. Have too many poxwalkers already

These walkers look like they're different sculpts so at least they're varied.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

shade1313 wrote:
I'm quite eager to see the helmeted option for t he Primaris Librarian.

Ditto. He's cool-looking but a helmet would be better for my tastes.

I'm a bit worried about the coloured plastic thing. Is that the same sort of harder, more difficult to cut but still more easily breaking plastic that the Space Hulk stuff is made from?

In any case, the models look good. The skull helm is a bit odd choice though, considering how strongly is is associated with chaplains.

These boxed sets seem nice, but it is annoying that they come with two factions. No one wants the Death Guard stuff.

So....anyone else notice the Blight Launcher on the Plague Marines looks exactly like the Rad Launcher on the FW Destroyers?

Can't say I'm too thrilled. Easy To Build? Ew. No.

I dread the Poxwalkers being another Chaos Cultists situation - pay exorbitant amount for less models in points