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I'd be quite happy in a balanced game.

Martel732 wrote:
I'd be quite happy in a balanced game.

Me too. Even if the balance was off just a bit, as long as it was good enough.

Martel732 wrote:
I'd be quite happy in a balanced game.

I would theoretically be happy with a balanced game too. But considering you've never seen a space marine you didn't want to buff, I think we would have very different ideas about what a balanced game is.

That's not true at all. You're just making things up now. I have stated MANY TIMES I had no idea how to fix BA in 7th they were so fethed up. Most proposed changes were too clunky. I still have no idea how to make the concept of the tac marine or assault marine work in a game that harshly punishes generalists.

The problem is tac marines and assault marines aren't generalists. Their scope is too limited within their rules, and on top of that haven't traditionally balanced well vs the core rules. It raises obvious questions like, why are assault marines who are specialized in hth only able to take rifles and pistols as their specials? Fixing them isn't as hard as it may seem. But that's off-topic, i may make a new thread about it.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 crimsondave wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:

 Arbitrator wrote:

 NenkotaMoon wrote:
Maybe Guard just need to suck again I guess, to return balance to the universe or some dumb crap.

There's a huge chunk of the fanbase who want anything that's not loyalist Space Marines to be worthless.

Remember it was only at the tail end of 7th that "CSM players still need to suffer for 3.5 being good" began to end.

I can't wait for the Tau/Eldar codex. It could be total crap, but there'll still be people insisting it needs nerfing to the dirt.

This victim complex needs to stop. Not everyone who sees the issues with Guard plays loyalist marines, and I'm sure that not everyone who plays loyalist marines just wants everything else to be bad. Just assuming that everyone who disagrees with you is arguing in bad faith is a terrible way to participate in a discussion.

That's rich.

But true.

It's not surprising that the Mary Sue army is played by people who have issues with not being the best of the best of the best.

I hope you're not referring to me. Clearly the person with the CSM avatar and CSM title plays and is a paragon of loyalist marines.

Martel732 wrote:
That's not true at all. You're just making things up now. I have stated MANY TIMES I had no idea how to fix BA in 7th they were so fethed up. Most proposed changes were too clunky. I still have no idea how to make the concept of the tac marine or assault marine work in a game that harshly punishes generalists.

The best way to do that was to eliminate most of their "unique" options and just roll them in, along with Dark Angels, into the Vanilla Codex.

That said, I think the new AP system has helped a bunch, but the issue is how much more it helped Guardsmen.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Arachnofiend wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 crimsondave wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:

 Arbitrator wrote:

 NenkotaMoon wrote:
Maybe Guard just need to suck again I guess, to return balance to the universe or some dumb crap.

There's a huge chunk of the fanbase who want anything that's not loyalist Space Marines to be worthless.

Remember it was only at the tail end of 7th that "CSM players still need to suffer for 3.5 being good" began to end.

I can't wait for the Tau/Eldar codex. It could be total crap, but there'll still be people insisting it needs nerfing to the dirt.

This victim complex needs to stop. Not everyone who sees the issues with Guard plays loyalist marines, and I'm sure that not everyone who plays loyalist marines just wants everything else to be bad. Just assuming that everyone who disagrees with you is arguing in bad faith is a terrible way to participate in a discussion.

That's rich.

But true.

It's not surprising that the Mary Sue army is played by people who have issues with not being the best of the best of the best.

I hope you're not referring to me. Clearly the person with the CSM avatar and CSM title plays and is a paragon of loyalist marines.

You're a Marine variant. They don't care. They lump all us together. When I then say I'm speaking as an Necron and Skitarii player they then refuse to acknowledge me. Some people here don't understand the big picture.

Remember a few months ago when everyone was complaining about how OP Necrons were with RP?
This is a lot like that. Eventually things will mulch Conscripts. More people will try other options and find them more fun that Conscripts. Maybe, GW will adjust them in some way to make them good at being meat shields but a burden in scoring or something.
Right now, I still believe the Chaos dex is the best in terms of power, but I like the Admech and the Guard for their flavor.
We will soon see Eldar and Nids and that will show us a bit on how they are going to do a true specialist army and another horde army.
Just wait until we nid players can bring units back with CP or outflank units, or maybe even get the dreaded -1 to hit at ranges past 12". Better yet, maybe we will get Jones is acting strangely again and get to start with enemy models turning into nids.

 SideshowLucifer wrote:
Remember a few months ago when everyone was complaining about how OP Necrons were with RP?
This is a lot like that. Eventually things will mulch Conscripts. More people will try other options and find them more fun that Conscripts. Maybe, GW will adjust them in some way to make them good at being meat shields but a burden in scoring or something.
Right now, I still believe the Chaos dex is the best in terms of power, but I like the Admech and the Guard for their flavor.
We will soon see Eldar and Nids and that will show us a bit on how they are going to do a true specialist army and another horde army.
Just wait until we nid players can bring units back with CP or outflank units, or maybe even get the dreaded -1 to hit at ranges past 12". Better yet, maybe we will get Jones is acting strangely again and get to start with enemy models turning into nids.

Necrons never won any tournaments, though, so the people who said they would be a problem (of which I wasn't, because I played Necrons in 7th and could see that new RP was in fact a huge nerf) were proven incorrect by evidence. Conscripts, on the other hand, have featured at the top of several tournaments so there is clear evidence that they are overperforming.

Waaaghpower wrote:

Alcibiades wrote:
Pask in a stationary Punisher kills around 8 marines. This is really good, but it's not "blow everything off the table."

More like 11, if he's taken Heavy Bolter Sponsons. (Which are the most logical sponson choice, since they go well with the main turret.)
Also, it's worth pointing out that he kills 11 marines, but he's not a Marine killer - His gun is supposed to be anti-horde. In spite of that, he's killing 3 Terminators a turn, 11 Marines, putting 5-6 wounds on most tanks (That is, any tank with a 3+ save and T9 or lower,) and if you actually throw him against something like Orks, he's killing nearly an entire thirty-boy horde in a single volley. (26 boyz, to be precise.)
No matter what he shoots at, he's probably causing 100+ points of damage. If it's against an actual ideal target, he's causing nearly 200pts of damage. He's easily making back half his points every single turn against non optimal targets while also providing buffs.
That absolutely is "Blow everything off the table."

Oh, and he's ALSO throwing out buffs to other tanks, because his insanely high damage output isn't enough.

This thread isn't about what marines were like this codex or last codex, or 3 codex ago. This thread is about what to do with units and combos quoted by Waaaghpower above.

That is one model, firing 49 STR 5 shots. The model costs what, 220, 250 points? That's insanely overpowered and underpriced. Add in everything else, like army doctrines, numerous stratagems, the fastest troops in the game (with orders, so what), and all the other things and we've got a serious issue.

Even melee isn't an option vs. troop blobs. It's hard to get your melee units stuck in, let alone the fact that a unit can just fall back out of combat with no repercussions. Add that in with the order to get back in the fight and melee literally loses at all times.

Think about it, say genestealers get into combat and go to town, munching a bunch of conscripts. That conscript unit still gets to hit back in melee, and will probably cause some wounds. Then the conscripts (or other blob) just falls back.

There should have been some loss to units that chose to fall back. Maybe free D3 mortal wounds, something like that. BTW, this isn't a guard only issue, it's 8th edition mechanics issue.

Anyhow, more tea and crumpets along the firing line good sirs, we've got bodies to spare and new super-powered tanks to hold the line.

Martel732 wrote:
I'd be quite happy in a balanced game.

... in which 1 Space Marine single-handedly defeats an entire Ork or Guard army.

Be honest, because that's what you mean.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Arachnofiend wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
It's not surprising that the Mary Sue army is played by people who have issues with not being the best of the best of the best.

I hope you're not referring to me. Clearly the person with the CSM avatar and CSM title plays and is a paragon of loyalist marines.

As a CSM player, you know darn well that CSMs are the Jan Brady to the Mary Sues.

 SideshowLucifer wrote:
Remember a few months ago when everyone was complaining about how OP Necrons were with RP?
This is a lot like that. Eventually things will mulch Conscripts. More people will try other options and find them more fun that Conscripts. Maybe, GW will adjust them in some way to make them good at being meat shields but a burden in scoring or something.
Right now, I still believe the Chaos dex is the best in terms of power, but I like the Admech and the Guard for their flavor.
We will soon see Eldar and Nids and that will show us a bit on how they are going to do a true specialist army and another horde army.
Just wait until we nid players can bring units back with CP or outflank units, or maybe even get the dreaded -1 to hit at ranges past 12". Better yet, maybe we will get Jones is acting strangely again and get to start with enemy models turning into nids.

That wasn't everybody. That was like 3 people that didn't do the math on it. Anybody can tell you how hilariously underpowered Necrons are.

Yeah, I'm going to be honest it's actually amazing to watch people deflect every single argument or point about the poor balance of this codex with "well you are a space marine player so of course you think that".

It manages to be weirdly paranoid yet also absurdly childish all at once.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
It's not surprising that the Mary Sue army is played by people who have issues with not being the best of the best of the best.

I hope you're not referring to me. Clearly the person with the CSM avatar and CSM title plays and is a paragon of loyalist marines.

As a CSM player, you know darn well that CSMs are the Jan Brady to the Mary Sues.

What the gak does that even mean? You're being ridiculous.

 Arachnofiend wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 crimsondave wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:

 Arbitrator wrote:

 NenkotaMoon wrote:
Maybe Guard just need to suck again I guess, to return balance to the universe or some dumb crap.

There's a huge chunk of the fanbase who want anything that's not loyalist Space Marines to be worthless.

Remember it was only at the tail end of 7th that "CSM players still need to suffer for 3.5 being good" began to end.

I can't wait for the Tau/Eldar codex. It could be total crap, but there'll still be people insisting it needs nerfing to the dirt.

This victim complex needs to stop. Not everyone who sees the issues with Guard plays loyalist marines, and I'm sure that not everyone who plays loyalist marines just wants everything else to be bad. Just assuming that everyone who disagrees with you is arguing in bad faith is a terrible way to participate in a discussion.

That's rich.

But true.

It's not surprising that the Mary Sue army is played by people who have issues with not being the best of the best of the best.

I hope you're not referring to me. Clearly the person with the CSM avatar and CSM title plays and is a paragon of loyalist marines.

He probably talking about me with literally THE mid-tier army this edition, mid-tierish last edition, and OMGWTFBBQ in 5th. Oh wait I had orks in 5th, and moved on because I saw the writing on the wall.

Like I have Admech as well, but we already know how that codex is as well.

Having looked at the Guard Codex, I don't think its half as overpowered as people are saying. I've watched a fair few battle reports now where (Codex) Guard win and in every case what I notice is that they're trying to beat Guard at their own design by taking them head on but not exploiting their weaknesses. If we take two miniwargaming batrep examples I saw recently ;

One game where a Chaos player fielded 90 Cultists, A Godhammer LR, a pair of Baleflamer Helldrakes, and other than the LR his only other anti-tank at range was two squads of Oblits. At 2000 points. Not enough anti-tank, too reliant on weak, slow moving infantry, and even then he gets an oppurtunity or two to try turn things around by using his Helldrakes to tie up important units but he openly says he doesn't think that its important. D'oh!

Another one, on youtube this time has a Deathguard player throw loads of Plague Marines at an IG gunline and rely on a fire support base of a few ranged-orientated Hellbrutes and Plague Drones. Again, its 2k points, and again there isn't enough anti-tank, and even though the Chaos player has mobility to exploit this time with Rhinos, he quite literally just uses them as a taxi to put them in the middle of the board. Why?

I've played quite a lot of matches with Index Guard and I see this a lot. The people who lost against my mixed mech/conscript/artillery list in the last two local tournaments I went to, both of which I went 2W/1L at, were the people who sent infantry running down the midfield and didn't have enough anti-tank to deal with a heavy-vehicle list. In one of these 1850 matches, the only ranged AT a Grey Knight player brought was two Storm Ravens. That wasn't enough. He then ruined his other potential advantage, mobility, by being too cautious with the guys inside the Storm Ravens when they should have used that alpha-strike capability they have to tie up my artillery blob asap. Something none of my opponents really realised is that even old-Conscripts without the order nerf and the 50 man blob weren't that good in shooting or assault. I got near enough the maximum number of FRFSRF shots a 50 man blob can manage on said Grey Knight player's Terminators in that game but scored only one wound.

So what about the two games where I lost? Against Slaanesh orientated Chaos, I had terrible luck trying to kill his vehicles with my artillery, but the bigger problem was that my opponent tried hard and managed to rack up kill points because it was the objective when I tried to play the same way I had played the last two games, opting to try kill his firepower first, using my Scions aggressively, using my Mechvets reactively, and all of it backfired because I didn't think how I was exploiting each unit's advantages through.

In the other game, I played against an Ork player who understood what mobility was to the point that anti-tank units were barely a concern. He had a Ghaz + Weirdboy +Stormboys set up that allowed him to rush across the board and reach me in melee as early as turn one, even after I noticed in deployment at the last minute that his Stormboys had the threat range to do a first turn charge - because his Weirdboy still put a mob of 30 Boys in combat using 'Da Jump who killed my two Chimeras and a bunch of Vets off the bat.

The Ork player got in knife-fighting range, slaughtered my Conscripts without breaking a sweat between melee and dakka-jet strafing runs, and broke my ability to play the objective game by turn 2, in a Relic game. I should point out this guy won both tournaments I mention.

Now Conscripts as a combat unit are garbage - they're pure, unadulterated bubblewrap now. If a Guard player wants an effective defensive blob, they need to invest CP's to build a combined squad.

IG are the flavour of the month. There isn't even anything in the Codex that is virtually impossible to kill for a normal list like some previous notorious Codexes/supplements in past editions have introduced to the game *cough* Tau, *cough* Eldar, *cough* Necrons. What makes IG so good is the fact they have a load of firepower, once people figure out how to counter that the ranting will die down.

 Mr.Omega wrote:
Having looked at the Guard Codex, I don't think its half as overpowered as people are saying. I've watched a fair few battle reports now where (Codex) Guard win and in every case what I notice is that they're trying to beat Guard at their own design by taking them head on but not exploiting their weaknesses. If we take two miniwargaming batrep examples I saw recently ;

One game where a Chaos player fielded 90 Cultists, A Godhammer LR, a pair of Baleflamer Helldrakes, and other than the LR his only other anti-tank at range was two squads of Oblits. At 2000 points. Not enough anti-tank, too reliant on weak, slow moving infantry, and even then he gets an oppurtunity or two to try turn things around by using his Helldrakes to tie up important units but he openly says he doesn't think that its important. D'oh!

Another one, on youtube this time has a Deathguard player throw loads of Plague Marines at an IG gunline and rely on a fire support base of a few ranged-orientated Hellbrutes and Plague Drones. Again, its 2k points, and again there isn't enough anti-tank, and even though the Chaos player has mobility to exploit this time with Rhinos, he quite literally just uses them as a taxi to put them in the middle of the board. Why?

I've played quite a lot of matches with Index Guard and I see this a lot. The people who lost against my mixed mech/conscript/artillery list in the last two local tournaments I went to, both of which I went 2W/1L at, were the people who sent infantry running down the midfield and didn't have enough anti-tank to deal with a heavy-vehicle list. In one of these 1850 matches, the only ranged AT a Grey Knight player brought was two Storm Ravens. That wasn't enough. He then ruined his other potential advantage, mobility, by being too cautious with the guys inside the Storm Ravens when they should have used that alpha-strike capability they have to tie up my artillery blob asap. Something none of my opponents really realised is that even old-Conscripts without the order nerf and the 50 man blob weren't that good in shooting or assault. I got near enough the maximum number of FRFSRF shots a 50 man blob can manage on said Grey Knight player's Terminators in that game but scored only one wound.

So what about the two games where I lost? Against Slaanesh orientated Chaos, I had terrible luck trying to kill his vehicles with my artillery, but the bigger problem was that my opponent tried hard and managed to rack up kill points because it was the objective when I tried to play the same way I had played the last two games, opting to try kill his firepower first, using my Scions aggressively, using my Mechvets reactively, and all of it backfired because I didn't think how I was exploiting each unit's advantages through.

In the other game, I played against an Ork player who understood what mobility was to the point that anti-tank units were barely a concern. He had a Ghaz + Weirdboy +Stormboys set up that allowed him to rush across the board and reach me in melee as early as turn one, even after I noticed in deployment at the last minute that his Stormboys had the threat range to do a first turn charge - because his Weirdboy still put a mob of 30 Boys in combat using 'Da Jump who killed my two Chimeras and a bunch of Vets off the bat.

The Ork player got in knife-fighting range, slaughtered my Conscripts without breaking a sweat between melee and dakka-jet strafing runs, and broke my ability to play the objective game by turn 2, in a Relic game. I should point out this guy won both tournaments I mention.

Now Conscripts as a combat unit are garbage - they're pure, unadulterated bubblewrap now. If a Guard player wants an effective defensive blob, they need to invest CP's to build a combined squad.

IG are the flavour of the month. There isn't even anything in the Codex that is virtually impossible to kill for a normal list like some previous notorious Codexes/supplements in past editions have introduced to the game *cough* Tau, *cough* Eldar, *cough* Necrons. What makes IG so good is the fact they have a load of firepower, once people figure out how to counter that the ranting will die down.

I don't care about the firepower. That's totally fine, it's a gunline army that can set up an effective gunline. Big whoop, they're supposed to. It has counterplay (although I definitely think the "fire twice"-thing for LR should have been for standing still, so you could manouvre around the tanks and force them to move. As it is, half move is more than enough to make sure you can hit whatever. Still, it's managable.) my only complaint is Conscript hardiness. That's it. Remove the Commissar and that complaint is gone. Rebalance him to something sane, and it's gone. It's not sane that a character that cheap can do the job of a 2CP stratagem several times every turn on the best bubblewrap in the game. It's just not.

Your argument of "I won a lot with Index guard, so the super powered codex is fine" is sort of weird, though.

 Purifier wrote:

 Mr.Omega wrote:
Having looked at the Guard Codex, I don't think its half as overpowered as people are saying. I've watched a fair few battle reports now where (Codex) Guard win and in every case what I notice is that they're trying to beat Guard at their own design by taking them head on but not exploiting their weaknesses. If we take two miniwargaming batrep examples I saw recently ;

One game where a Chaos player fielded 90 Cultists, A Godhammer LR, a pair of Baleflamer Helldrakes, and other than the LR his only other anti-tank at range was two squads of Oblits. At 2000 points. Not enough anti-tank, too reliant on weak, slow moving infantry, and even then he gets an oppurtunity or two to try turn things around by using his Helldrakes to tie up important units but he openly says he doesn't think that its important. D'oh!

Another one, on youtube this time has a Deathguard player throw loads of Plague Marines at an IG gunline and rely on a fire support base of a few ranged-orientated Hellbrutes and Plague Drones. Again, its 2k points, and again there isn't enough anti-tank, and even though the Chaos player has mobility to exploit this time with Rhinos, he quite literally just uses them as a taxi to put them in the middle of the board. Why?

I've played quite a lot of matches with Index Guard and I see this a lot. The people who lost against my mixed mech/conscript/artillery list in the last two local tournaments I went to, both of which I went 2W/1L at, were the people who sent infantry running down the midfield and didn't have enough anti-tank to deal with a heavy-vehicle list. In one of these 1850 matches, the only ranged AT a Grey Knight player brought was two Storm Ravens. That wasn't enough. He then ruined his other potential advantage, mobility, by being too cautious with the guys inside the Storm Ravens when they should have used that alpha-strike capability they have to tie up my artillery blob asap. Something none of my opponents really realised is that even old-Conscripts without the order nerf and the 50 man blob weren't that good in shooting or assault. I got near enough the maximum number of FRFSRF shots a 50 man blob can manage on said Grey Knight player's Terminators in that game but scored only one wound.

So what about the two games where I lost? Against Slaanesh orientated Chaos, I had terrible luck trying to kill his vehicles with my artillery, but the bigger problem was that my opponent tried hard and managed to rack up kill points because it was the objective when I tried to play the same way I had played the last two games, opting to try kill his firepower first, using my Scions aggressively, using my Mechvets reactively, and all of it backfired because I didn't think how I was exploiting each unit's advantages through.

In the other game, I played against an Ork player who understood what mobility was to the point that anti-tank units were barely a concern. He had a Ghaz + Weirdboy +Stormboys set up that allowed him to rush across the board and reach me in melee as early as turn one, even after I noticed in deployment at the last minute that his Stormboys had the threat range to do a first turn charge - because his Weirdboy still put a mob of 30 Boys in combat using 'Da Jump who killed my two Chimeras and a bunch of Vets off the bat.

The Ork player got in knife-fighting range, slaughtered my Conscripts without breaking a sweat between melee and dakka-jet strafing runs, and broke my ability to play the objective game by turn 2, in a Relic game. I should point out this guy won both tournaments I mention.

Now Conscripts as a combat unit are garbage - they're pure, unadulterated bubblewrap now. If a Guard player wants an effective defensive blob, they need to invest CP's to build a combined squad.

IG are the flavour of the month. There isn't even anything in the Codex that is virtually impossible to kill for a normal list like some previous notorious Codexes/supplements in past editions have introduced to the game *cough* Tau, *cough* Eldar, *cough* Necrons. What makes IG so good is the fact they have a load of firepower, once people figure out how to counter that the ranting will die down.

I don't care about the firepower. That's totally fine, it's a gunline army that can set up an effective gunline. Big whoop, they're supposed to. It has counterplay (although I definitely think the "fire twice"-thing for LR should have been for standing still, so you could manouvre around the tanks and force them to move. As it is, half move is more than enough to make sure you can hit whatever. Still, it's managable.) my only complaint is Conscript hardiness. That's it. Remove the Commissar and that complaint is gone. Rebalance him to something sane, and it's gone. It's not sane that a character that cheap can do the job of a 2CP stratagem several times every turn on the best bubblewrap in the game. It's just not.

Your argument of "I won a lot with Index guard, so the super powered codex is fine" is sort of weird, though.

That's probably because you have a problem with not understanding the point of peoples arguments and just fitting them into your own little strawman interpretation.

We're coming off of an edition where Guard could be easily swept aside by just running at them and engaging in head to head slugfests. Wyverns would wipe out any non-invisible exposed infantry, but for basically anything else, you'd just win a head to head battle. A predator with lascannons would out-punch any guard tank. a half-decent deathstar would happily tank whatever they could dish out and just walk through them. His point was, people haven't figured out that Guard now have a win condition, and that win condition is engaging in long, drawn out slugfests.

In my games vs guard as other factions in 8th, I've lost exactly one, and it was the Konor mission where the unique stratagem allowed my opponent to double-tap a buffed up baneblade, and they seized the initiative so were basically able to just blow up all my transports turn 1. In all my other games, the strategy of "don't just run at them and have a big firefight" has worked pretty darn well. I've been able to use a Raider to tank overwatch and limit the number of conscripts that can get to my Wyches, then use the Wyches to stop them from falling back - that basically won a game. I've been able to deploy basically my whole elite army in ruins turn 1 and limit my casualties in total to 2 wraithguard turn 1. I can't speak to space marine tactics because I don't play space marines, but playing as my usual glass cannon types I've had no trouble using whatever long range firepower I've got to take out the most threatening elements of the gunline and using smart engagements to tie up and stop the chaff blobs from doing what they want to do. If it were me, I'd take a whirlwind or other indirect fire weapon in cover and use it just to clear out mortar teams, figure out which tanks I can focus fire on and knock them out with lascannons, and then watch for an opportunity when I can use a rhino/razorback paired with some kind of power armored infantry to grab a flank of a blob and hold it in place.

I'm going to respond to two points:

How exactly are we supposed to load up both anti tank for dealing with enemy tanks and load up on anti infantry, when the infantry we need to kill is exceptionally tough, the tanks have firepower on par with every other army at least, and we need to build a list that isn't just tailored for killing guard?

Well, I'll tell you how most people do it: just run hordes/guard of your own. All hordes put out a lot of anti infantry shooting, so that's where you have to get a good portion of your anti infantry from. Of course, guard still has better options than most here, but we end up "taking them head on at their own design" because they are a circular counter. The way guard is designed, its best at being killed by another guard army or something similar.

Even the better assault builds rely on hordes, they just find ways to totally negate the guard's firepower either through characters like Magnus/Mortarion who are hard to kill with conventional weapons, or by hiding dangerous characters in amongst our hordes so the majority of firepower is going into brimstones or conscripts, and the anti tank weapons end up being useless. I actually spent time looking into the competitive scene and let me just say, snipers being absolute garbage for their cost is both great for guard in casual play but also the only reason they don't sweep tournaments with imperial soup.

As for why guard are good, it really is not their pure firepower. Even post codex my admech have more firepower than pure guard, guard seems to be closer to my death guard in sheer firepower. It's just that guard can make it really hard to land a hit on any unit that matters, with artillery that ignores LoS tucked into a corner bubble wrapped by hordes of conscripts.

Really, horde durability needs to go down this edition as a whole. It leads to some really frustrating tactics and counter tactics, guard merely happens to be one of the factions most capable of abusing it "in house" without pulling from multiple army lists.

the_scotsman wrote:

That's probably because you have a problem with not understanding the point of peoples arguments and just fitting them into your own little strawman interpretation.

I love how you say that, and then go off on a tangent to rant about anything but the one point I raise. If it were you, you would take a whirlwind, except you clearly wouldn't as you state you're playing Eldar, so I have no idea what you're talking about there. I wouldn't either, as I play AdMech, and if I'm gonna waste my money on a different faction, it's gonna be one worth allying with. It's going to be conscripts.

SilverAlien wrote:
Yeah, I'm going to be honest it's actually amazing to watch people deflect every single argument or point about the poor balance of this codex with "well you are a space marine player so of course you think that".

It manages to be weirdly paranoid yet also absurdly childish all at once.

Given that the book isn't even out yet, I'd say the pot is calling the kettle black. I remember when Front Line Gaming (the actual playtesters) announced that Blood Angels were going to OP in 8th edition; and yet there they stand at the bottom of every competitive event. You may be right, but just wait and see.

Martel732 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

The space marine codex is worse than many indexes.

You are out of your brain.

No, he's absolutely correct.


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 ross-128 wrote:
Considering the track record of previous editions, arguably IG is more justified in saying "it's about time" than Space Marines are in their crusade against anything not in power armor.

After all, historically the top three armies are more often than not a combination of Space Marines, Eldar, and one wildcard, not necessarily in that order. With Space Marines complaining loudly whenever they are in the #2 or #3 spot of course.

Right now, yeah AM is very likely in the wildcard slot. Probably even holding #1 as the wildcard, though SM hybrid lists have been apparently outperforming pure Guard. SM are still solidly up there right next to them, and right now we're basically waiting to see if Eldar will claim their usual seat at the top 3 or if this will be one of the unusual double-wildcard editions.

But of course it's SM players complaining when it's the Eldar who are most at risk of losing their top-3 spot.

And you know what, since IG is the wildcard that means they'll more likely than not get rotated out next edition. So you only have to deal with them for one edition, while Eldar and Space Marines will still be up there wondering who the next wildcard will be.

Of course, if all GW wants to do is avoid forum drama, probably the safest ordering they could go with is SM #1, CSM #2, Eldar #3. There'd be far less complaints because as far as the loudest complainers are concerned all will be right with the world, aside from CSM grumbling about being second fiddle to their non-spiky brethren.

Marines are not historically that great. Your entire premise is flawed.

This community is pretty toxic towards anyone who plays any kind of marines.

 Marmatag wrote:


This community is pretty toxic towards anyone who plays any kind of marines.

This community is pretty toxic against anyone that plays a faction that isn't the previous poster's faction.

 Purifier wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:


This community is pretty toxic towards anyone who plays any kind of marines.

This community is pretty toxic against anyone that plays a faction that isn't the previous poster's faction.

Yup lol... Dakka General is pretty toxic overall.

 Gunzhard wrote:

SilverAlien wrote:
Yeah, I'm going to be honest it's actually amazing to watch people deflect every single argument or point about the poor balance of this codex with "well you are a space marine player so of course you think that".

It manages to be weirdly paranoid yet also absurdly childish all at once.

Given that the book isn't even out yet, I'd say the pot is calling the kettle black. I remember when Front Line Gaming (the actual playtesters) announced that Blood Angels were going to OP in 8th edition; and yet there they stand at the bottom of every competitive event. You may be right, but just wait and see.

Did anyone ever believe that? I sure didn't.

"IG are the flavour of the month. There isn't even anything in the Codex that is virtually impossible to kill for a normal list like some previous notorious Codexes/supplements in past editions have introduced to the game *cough* Tau, *cough* Eldar, *cough* Necrons. What makes IG so good is the fact they have a load of firepower, once people figure out how to counter that the ranting will die down. "

Undercosted units are tough to kill in their own right, because there are so many more wounds to remove from the table. No one unit is impossible, but 200 infantry and 3 copies of 4 vehicles is damn near impossible for a marine list to deal with.

 Purifier wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:


This community is pretty toxic towards anyone who plays any kind of marines.

This community is pretty toxic against anyone that plays a faction that isn't the previous poster's faction.

Stupid conscript Guard players, WAACers ruining it for us Armoured Company players...

Seriously though, people argue against imaginary opponents most of the time in 40k discussion. Context is discarded and often people infer insult when none is intended, or intend insults even when unwarranted. That is just online discussion though.

 Mr.Omega wrote:
Having looked at the Guard Codex, I don't think its half as overpowered as people are saying. I've watched a fair few battle reports now where (Codex) Guard win and in every case what I notice is that they're trying to beat Guard at their own design by taking them head on but not exploiting their weaknesses. If we take two miniwargaming batrep examples I saw recently ;

One game where a Chaos player fielded 90 Cultists, A Godhammer LR, a pair of Baleflamer Helldrakes, and other than the LR his only other anti-tank at range was two squads of Oblits. At 2000 points. Not enough anti-tank, too reliant on weak, slow moving infantry, and even then he gets an oppurtunity or two to try turn things around by using his Helldrakes to tie up important units but he openly says he doesn't think that its important. D'oh!

Another one, on youtube this time has a Deathguard player throw loads of Plague Marines at an IG gunline and rely on a fire support base of a few ranged-orientated Hellbrutes and Plague Drones. Again, its 2k points, and again there isn't enough anti-tank, and even though the Chaos player has mobility to exploit this time with Rhinos, he quite literally just uses them as a taxi to put them in the middle of the board. Why?

I've played quite a lot of matches with Index Guard and I see this a lot. The people who lost against my mixed mech/conscript/artillery list in the last two local tournaments I went to, both of which I went 2W/1L at, were the people who sent infantry running down the midfield and didn't have enough anti-tank to deal with a heavy-vehicle list. In one of these 1850 matches, the only ranged AT a Grey Knight player brought was two Storm Ravens. That wasn't enough. He then ruined his other potential advantage, mobility, by being too cautious with the guys inside the Storm Ravens when they should have used that alpha-strike capability they have to tie up my artillery blob asap. Something none of my opponents really realised is that even old-Conscripts without the order nerf and the 50 man blob weren't that good in shooting or assault. I got near enough the maximum number of FRFSRF shots a 50 man blob can manage on said Grey Knight player's Terminators in that game but scored only one wound.

So what about the two games where I lost? Against Slaanesh orientated Chaos, I had terrible luck trying to kill his vehicles with my artillery, but the bigger problem was that my opponent tried hard and managed to rack up kill points because it was the objective when I tried to play the same way I had played the last two games, opting to try kill his firepower first, using my Scions aggressively, using my Mechvets reactively, and all of it backfired because I didn't think how I was exploiting each unit's advantages through.

In the other game, I played against an Ork player who understood what mobility was to the point that anti-tank units were barely a concern. He had a Ghaz + Weirdboy +Stormboys set up that allowed him to rush across the board and reach me in melee as early as turn one, even after I noticed in deployment at the last minute that his Stormboys had the threat range to do a first turn charge - because his Weirdboy still put a mob of 30 Boys in combat using 'Da Jump who killed my two Chimeras and a bunch of Vets off the bat.

The Ork player got in knife-fighting range, slaughtered my Conscripts without breaking a sweat between melee and dakka-jet strafing runs, and broke my ability to play the objective game by turn 2, in a Relic game. I should point out this guy won both tournaments I mention.

Now Conscripts as a combat unit are garbage - they're pure, unadulterated bubblewrap now. If a Guard player wants an effective defensive blob, they need to invest CP's to build a combined squad.

IG are the flavour of the month. There isn't even anything in the Codex that is virtually impossible to kill for a normal list like some previous notorious Codexes/supplements in past editions have introduced to the game *cough* Tau, *cough* Eldar, *cough* Necrons. What makes IG so good is the fact they have a load of firepower, once people figure out how to counter that the ranting will die down.

You lost twice with Index guard? Don't worry, that won't happen again with the new codex. God-Emperor protects... because it's hard to take effective anti infantry AND anti tank against a double tapping gunline with olympic sprinter infantry. Move move move, 24" after we blast you with Pask 49 str 5 shots at 2+ (not to mention all the other tanks and what not).

Please, come up with a real counter or solution per the original post. I don't see one yet.

There's just a lot of toxicity and mudflinging whenever members of the community have opposing views.

When the Indexes were first leaked, there was the below picture which someone made about Conscripts defining 8th edition. Back then, people dismissed it because "nobody would by so many models." Only, they did.

The fact that this unit became so divisive and so "autotake/better than all other equivalents" before 8th even was released, shows there is something that was seriously off with the army rebalancing.

Niiru wrote:
Something I just thought of, and has stuck with me as it is very much the way some people in business/marketing think...

Someone at GW just needs to think "oh dear, I thought we did a good job at making a fun and strong IG codex this time, but look at all the outrage and complaints we are getting because of how good it is. Oh well, it's too late to do anything about it now. Eldar and Tyranids are next, lets make *DOUBLE* sure that we don't make this mistake again. Drop a bunch of those special rules we planned for them. Oh and add 1 point to every model. We don't want any more bad publicity!"

I have a horrible feeling that this is far too likely.

If the Eldar and Tyranid Codexes are releasing in the next month or so, you can bet they're already at the printers, or printed.

 Gunzhard wrote:

SilverAlien wrote:
Yeah, I'm going to be honest it's actually amazing to watch people deflect every single argument or point about the poor balance of this codex with "well you are a space marine player so of course you think that".

It manages to be weirdly paranoid yet also absurdly childish all at once.

Given that the book isn't even out yet, I'd say the pot is calling the kettle black. I remember when Front Line Gaming (the actual playtesters) announced that Blood Angels were going to OP in 8th edition; and yet there they stand at the bottom of every competitive event. You may be right, but just wait and see.

Okay first, FLG might have been technically been correct if the stormraven hadn't been nerfed so hard. With stormraven as a central theme and the ability to deepstrike special weapons, like plasma, better than other marine factions, they probably would've been one of the better indices armies. With the stormraven less useful, marine players began trying to get a similar mix of durability+firepower by using RG to multiply the firepower of already tough vehicles, and using screens to keep enemies away from the non flying vehicles. Plus it seems the playtesters totally missed the fact scions were paying BS 4+ prices for plasma, screwing up one of the advantages blood angels had over other marines by making scions an even better alternative.

Also, we know literally everything about the codex barring some confirmation on the exact pricing for a few things. So it has been released by that metric.