The Current State of Age of Sigmar

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**Amishprn86**

Jackal90 wrote:
Amishprn86 wrote:
I play SoC and BoC, but my BoC has almost every unit i play with -1 or -2 and ways to give out -1 or even -2 (or -3).

For my BoC i play with 2 shamans, 2-3 Doombulls, or 1-2 DB and 1 BL, 50+ bestigors, and some Bullgors (I stopped playing EToD unless it is a tournament, then i use them over Bullgors). Then i have 2 ways to give out -1, most the time its always -2 at least. I love Doombulls and i can safety say theya re worth playing multiples now, having 1 with +2D and other other with extra rend helps too.

The Doombulls/Bullgors are is -2/3D, my relic i have to take is an addition -1/-2/-3 rend (addition -1 rend for every 10 models in a unit to a max of 3) so 1 of my Doombulls will be -3/-4 rend for 3D, the other DB is -2/5D, if both gets to swing its over for almost any horded base unit. Bestigors are -1 but i try to get the spell or stone onto something for an additional -1. , i try not to hit to hard until turn 2 and i am a 1 drop so i set it up for double turns, if i get it im golded, if not i still am good b.c i can move 12-15" and still charge.

My other army (that i'm taking to adepticon) is SoC, their rend is only -1, but it doesnt matter as its 15 Scourgerunner chariots, 40 Shadow Warriors, and 2 Hurricanum's. The 2 Hurricanum's are 3D3 MWs on a 2+, the chariots at least 2/3 of them will gain a +1 to hit buff, they all have 1 that also is a +1 to hit, and at least 3 units will be +1 to wound, they are -1 for D3, and 6's are instead D3 MW's. Its normally 10 D3 MW's if you cant kill any of the chariots or wound the 2 Hurricanum's on top of the 6 unsaved wounds vs them (ends up being a hard average 26 wounds to a unit of M Guard after all saves) and that is before the 2nd shooting profile and before the Shadow warriors. To be fair that list will be nerf and chariots will be 80/210 for 3 in the GH2020, the local IDK, OBR, Mawtribes, Orruks, wont play against it without me letting them tailor their lists. But i normally try to kill off important units first, as the chariots move very fast in TE and i can spend CP to move farther and still shoot.

So you don’t have masses of -2 or better rend as you stated?
BoC do have a good amount of rend depending on build.
Your other army, you talk about MW instead.
Tons of armies lack decent rend so saying “it’s easy, just use high rend” doesn’t really apply.
It’s like saying you have to just shoot something and assume every army has massed shooting.

If it were really as easy as spamming high rend units, no one would really have an issue against them.
Petrefex would just be considered good at that point rather than extreme.

The main issue is that rend, MW and shooting are all army dependent.
Some armies literally lack multiple of these, meaning they lose multiple viable ways of dealing with certain things.

This is the main reason that my moulder army is used for rogue trader style friendly tournaments. (That and the conversion potential makes them fun)

My BoC i do...... I normally get -2/-3 turn 2 with my main melee units, a shaman with re-roll anydice on a 6+ to cast you basically need to be Nagash or Knight incantor (or a like) to stop that spell, then if you are near the herdstone its also -1 modifier (normally turn 3), once its turn 3+ you cant get away from it for the most part (at least a couple objectives). 18" can easily get 2 objectives. But -2 on 3 units, and -1 against a unit with massive amounts of -1 on all my other units.

How is that not easily able? I play 2-3 games a week, its more doable than you would think. I also make sure i have a wave 3 turn for melee. Again easy to get -2 on bestigors.

Im always going in with 3+ units with at least -2.

Then you also ignored the massive MW, MW's ignores armor, so what if your 3+ rr, or even 2+ rr1's (some CoS units are 2+ rr1's) a MW ignores all of that, i can easily do 7+ 3D MW a turn before spells.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
PS, this is from my experience and knowing BoC isnt as good as many other armies, i have to say, i'm not impressed with OBR MGuard spam just yet.

I'm going to for sure play against it more and maybe its just b.c of what i bring counters it well, but hte Khorne player also has 0 troubles with it too (tho Skarbrand is very good lol. So idk if i should count that).

**Tiberius501**

Well my armies can’t do that. My armies have -1 mainly on a few units and -2 very rarely. So for me it’s quite the struggle.

**Jackal90**

Amishprn86 wrote:
Jackal90 wrote:
Amishprn86 wrote:
I play SoC and BoC, but my BoC has almost every unit i play with -1 or -2 and ways to give out -1 or even -2 (or -3).

For my BoC i play with 2 shamans, 2-3 Doombulls, or 1-2 DB and 1 BL, 50+ bestigors, and some Bullgors (I stopped playing EToD unless it is a tournament, then i use them over Bullgors). Then i have 2 ways to give out -1, most the time its always -2 at least. I love Doombulls and i can safety say theya re worth playing multiples now, having 1 with +2D and other other with extra rend helps too.

The Doombulls/Bullgors are is -2/3D, my relic i have to take is an addition -1/-2/-3 rend (addition -1 rend for every 10 models in a unit to a max of 3) so 1 of my Doombulls will be -3/-4 rend for 3D, the other DB is -2/5D, if both gets to swing its over for almost any horded base unit. Bestigors are -1 but i try to get the spell or stone onto something for an additional -1. , i try not to hit to hard until turn 2 and i am a 1 drop so i set it up for double turns, if i get it im golded, if not i still am good b.c i can move 12-15" and still charge.

My other army (that i'm taking to adepticon) is SoC, their rend is only -1, but it doesnt matter as its 15 Scourgerunner chariots, 40 Shadow Warriors, and 2 Hurricanum's. The 2 Hurricanum's are 3D3 MWs on a 2+, the chariots at least 2/3 of them will gain a +1 to hit buff, they all have 1 that also is a +1 to hit, and at least 3 units will be +1 to wound, they are -1 for D3, and 6's are instead D3 MW's. Its normally 10 D3 MW's if you cant kill any of the chariots or wound the 2 Hurricanum's on top of the 6 unsaved wounds vs them (ends up being a hard average 26 wounds to a unit of M Guard after all saves) and that is before the 2nd shooting profile and before the Shadow warriors. To be fair that list will be nerf and chariots will be 80/210 for 3 in the GH2020, the local IDK, OBR, Mawtribes, Orruks, wont play against it without me letting them tailor their lists. But i normally try to kill off important units first, as the chariots move very fast in TE and i can spend CP to move farther and still shoot.

So you don’t have masses of -2 or better rend as you stated?
BoC do have a good amount of rend depending on build.
Your other army, you talk about MW instead.
Tons of armies lack decent rend so saying “it’s easy, just use high rend” doesn’t really apply.
It’s like saying you have to just shoot something and assume every army has massed shooting.

If it were really as easy as spamming high rend units, no one would really have an issue against them.
Petrefex would just be considered good at that point rather than extreme.

The main issue is that rend, MW and shooting are all army dependent.
Some armies literally lack multiple of these, meaning they lose multiple viable ways of dealing with certain things.

This is the main reason that my moulder army is used for rogue trader style friendly tournaments. (That and the conversion potential makes them fun)

My BoC i do...... I normally get -2/-3 turn 2 with my main melee units, a shaman with re-roll anydice on a 6+ to cast you basically need to be Nagash or Knight incantor (or a like) to stop that spell, then if you are near the herdstone its also -1 modifier (normally turn 3), once its turn 3+ you cant get away from it for the most part (at least a couple objectives). 18" can easily get 2 objectives. But -2 on 3 units, and -1 against a unit with massive amounts of -1 on all my other units.

How is that not easily able? I play 2-3 games a week, its more doable than you would think. I also make sure i have a wave 3 turn for melee. Again easy to get -2 on bestigors.

Im always going in with 3+ units with at least -2.

Then you also ignored the massive MW, MW's ignores armor, so what if your 3+ rr, or even 2+ rr1's (some CoS units are 2+ rr1's) a MW ignores all of that, i can easily do 7+ 3D MW a turn before spells.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
PS, this is from my experience and knowing BoC isnt as good as many other armies, i have to say, i'm not impressed with OBR MGuard spam just yet.

I'm going to for sure play against it more and maybe its just b.c of what i bring counters it well, but hte Khorne player also has 0 troubles with it too (tho Skarbrand is very good lol. So idk if i should count that).

I haven’t missed anything, you simply haven’t read my posts properly.
Your armies do not reflect all armies.
Yes, I know how mortal wounds work, but you were talking about rend, not mortal wounds.

Just because BoC have a good chunk of rend doesn’t mean everyone does.

That’s like saying casting spells is always instantly possible because you have Nagash, so everyone should be able to do the same.

Petrefex OBR are a top tier army for the exact reason that rend isn’t available to everyone in a good amount.
If it were an easy thing for all armies then people wouldn’t have issues with them.

**NinthMusketeer**

Quite frankly, if the matchup is Mawtribes vs Bonereapers and the ogor player isn't having trouble, then the bonereaper player isn't doing it right. A properly optimized and played bonereaper army will be such that there is nothing in the mawtribe battletome that counters it. I know it sounds harsh, but the tools simply are not there.

**Galas**

As a khorne and mawtribes player, seeing people trying to arguee that petrifex elites are not extremely overpowered and can be "counterplayed" (By Napoleon nonetheless, I assume) is hilarous.

**auticus**

Players stating their over powered filth isn't really that bad and you just need to learn to play has been a staple of gamers since the long ago. It really was funny during 7th ed whfb when the over the top busted demon book (probably the most broken book gw ever produced ever) had its players saying the same thing, all the while winking and high fiving each other.

**NinthMusketeer**

That thing was a monstrosity even in 8th.

**Kanluwen**

auticus wrote:
Players stating their over powered filth isn't really that bad and you just need to learn to play has been a staple of gamers since the long ago. It really was funny during 7th ed whfb when the over the top busted demon book (probably the most broken book gw ever produced ever) had its players saying the same thing, all the while winking and high fiving each other.

It was even funnier the nonstop whining from those same players over the Banner of the World Dragon or similar items that negated their magical attacks.

**Sagittarii Orientalis**

Kanluwen wrote:
auticus wrote:
Players stating their over powered filth isn't really that bad and you just need to learn to play has been a staple of gamers since the long ago. It really was funny during 7th ed whfb when the over the top busted demon book (probably the most broken book gw ever produced ever) had its players saying the same thing, all the while winking and high fiving each other.

It was even funnier the nonstop whining from those same players over the Banner of the World Dragon or similar items that negated their magical attacks.

I know I am digressing from the topic, but I cannot help bringing old memories when hearing these tales.
A Daemon of Chaos player whining about the World Dragon Banner while putting 12+ beasts of nurgle on the table, for example.

Anecdotes of World-that-was aside, how are the Ossiarchs doing at the tournaments?
They seem very strong, but a few factions seem to work as counter against them.
Anvils of Heldenhammer Longstrikes for example.
But then again stormcasts are not doing quite well at tournaments as far as I know, so I am not too sure.

**kodos**

"Anvilstrike" are among the favoured Stormcast tournament list.

Nothing that will win 5 out of 5 games unless you are lucky with double turns and the opponent not knowing what the list is doing

but it counter all lists that focus around few models or units for buffs as they can take them out in one turn.

PS: players talking about that their armies are not OP was something different back than as there were still some who played the army before the OP book was out and

now with the new armies being new and their range often is not really outstanding model wise except for one or two kits, it is all about the rules and excuses are needed.

for that alone I really think about converting Mantic Undead into FEC or Bonereaper and show up at the next tournament

**auticus**

Kanluwen wrote:
auticus wrote:
Players stating their over powered filth isn't really that bad and you just need to learn to play has been a staple of gamers since the long ago. It really was funny during 7th ed whfb when the over the top busted demon book (probably the most broken book gw ever produced ever) had its players saying the same thing, all the while winking and high fiving each other.

It was even funnier the nonstop whining from those same players over the Banner of the World Dragon or similar items that negated their magical attacks.

Yeah. Then it was the high elf players winking at each other and high fiving each other for their brilliance and telling them to learn to play. Basically whatever is busted at the moment will always be defended by its player base as being not that bad, even though everyone knows better.

**Jackal90**

auticus wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:
auticus wrote:
Players stating their over powered filth isn't really that bad and you just need to learn to play has been a staple of gamers since the long ago. It really was funny during 7th ed whfb when the over the top busted demon book (probably the most broken book gw ever produced ever) had its players saying the same thing, all the while winking and high fiving each other.

It was even funnier the nonstop whining from those same players over the Banner of the World Dragon or similar items that negated their magical attacks.

Yeah. Then it was the high elf players winking at each other and high fiving each other for their brilliance and telling them to learn to play. Basically whatever is busted at the moment will always be defended by its player base as being not that bad, even though everyone knows better.

To be fair, that’s just human nature I’d say.
Why admit you had a huge advantage when you can instead say it’s just down to being played well?

Either way, OP armies will always be a thing.
It only bugs me when I build a small underdog army then out of nowhere they become broken.

**auticus**

Why admit you had a huge advantage when you can instead say it’s just down to being played well?

Honesty

There are guys that will admit that their force is busted as opposed to condescend that you just dont know how to play well (then suddenly when their army gets the regular nerf, they suddenly forget how to play as well lol)

**NinthMusketeer**

Sagittarii Orientalis wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:
auticus wrote:
Players stating their over powered filth isn't really that bad and you just need to learn to play has been a staple of gamers since the long ago. It really was funny during 7th ed whfb when the over the top busted demon book (probably the most broken book gw ever produced ever) had its players saying the same thing, all the while winking and high fiving each other.

It was even funnier the nonstop whining from those same players over the Banner of the World Dragon or similar items that negated their magical attacks.

I know I am digressing from the topic, but I cannot help bringing old memories when hearing these tales.
A Daemon of Chaos player whining about the World Dragon Banner while putting 12+ beasts of nurgle on the table, for example.

Anecdotes of World-that-was aside, how are the Ossiarchs doing at the tournaments?
They seem very strong, but a few factions seem to work as counter against them.
Anvils of Heldenhammer Longstrikes for example.
But then again stormcasts are not doing quite well at tournaments as far as I know, so I am not too sure.

Bonereapers will have to work to go 5-0 but they can do it. To a certain extent things are matchup-dependent to see if they have to deal with something that spams MWs, but more than normal bandwagon armies I feel Bonereapers are going to be dragged down by players messing it up.

**Overread**

Updated with the two new Battletomes and also added in the details about the new "pointy Aelves".

Nice thing to note - AoS now only has one army without a 2.0 battletome - Seraphon. So fingers crossed that between now and "Spring 2020" we will hear about their release.

**Gir Spirit Bane**

Overread wrote:
Updated with the two new Battletomes and also added in the details about the new "pointy Aelves".

Nice thing to note - AoS now only has one army without a 2.0 battletome - Seraphon. So fingers crossed that between now and "Spring 2020" we will hear about their release.

I adore my night gobbos, but if Seraphon get a new army book that is flavourful I am SO THERE! Update those Saurus Warriors and Kroxigors and you've got a hell of a customer here GW!

Out of curiosity, just how many of the BIG dinos can you fit in 2k

Or are they all stuck in the Behemoth role? (How Danktrogg bosses aren't is just beyond me)

**ccs**

Gir Spirit Bane wrote:
Overread wrote:
Updated with the two new Battletomes and also added in the details about the new "pointy Aelves".

Nice thing to note - AoS now only has one army without a 2.0 battletome - Seraphon. So fingers crossed that between now and "Spring 2020" we will hear about their release.

I adore my night gobbos, but if Seraphon get a new army book that is flavourful I am SO THERE! Update those Saurus Warriors and Kroxigors and you've got a hell of a customer here GW!

Out of curiosity, just how many of the BIG dinos can you fit in 2k Or are they all stuck in the Behemoth role? (How Danktrogg bosses aren't is just beyond me)

You could definitely get 4. Maybe 5 depending upon what counts as a behemoth. There's also ways to summon units (including the larger dinos) like that portal thing on the back of the stegadon.

**Stux**

Dankhold Troggbosses arent that big. Only a bit bigger than Rockguts really.

Behemoths have to have enough wounds to justify braketing, and Dankholds arent quite there either. If I remember correctly there aren't any Behemoths below 14 wounds.

**Gir Spirit Bane**

Stux wrote:
Dankhold Troggbosses arent that big. Only a bit bigger than Rockguts really.

Behemoths have to have enough wounds to justify braketing, and Dankholds arent quite there either. If I remember correctly there aren't any Behemoths below 14 wounds.

Aleguzzler Gargants are 12 and bracket, quite horribly. Still wont stop me from running such gorgeous and hilarious units!

Looking at it, Bastiladon are behemoths according to Azyr and they're only 8 wounds! Troglydons also with 12 wounds.

Don't get me wrong, I adore my Troggbosses but they're pretty big models and hit hard enough it just strikes me as strange they lack monster keyword or behemoth typing, even though its probably a buff for them overall!

**Overread**

GW has been relenting on the behemoth rule in some armies in special situations. Eg Flesh Eaters can field one army which is basically all terrorgasts and zombiedragons even though it would exceed the normal monster limitation.

I can well see them giving Seraphon an army subgroup that fields almost nothing but BIG DINOS.

**Cronch**

Seraphon are so old they have some truly weird things, like 8-wound behemoths or priests with no prayers (skink priest).
And they do only get the barebone behemoth allowance unlike newer armies which can bring all-behemoth lineups like Beastclaws or steamtank CoS.

And given that the people who asked about it during the open day seminar got (allegedly) answers like "seraphon will get their day under the sun, but not soon"...they will remain an army propped up only by summoning rules for some time.

**Stux**

Gir Spirit Bane wrote:
Stux wrote:
Dankhold Troggbosses arent that big. Only a bit bigger than Rockguts really.

Behemoths have to have enough wounds to justify braketing, and Dankholds arent quite there either. If I remember correctly there aren't any Behemoths below 14 wounds.

Aleguzzler Gargants are 12 and bracket, quite horribly. Still wont stop me from running such gorgeous and hilarious units!

Looking at it, Bastiladon are behemoths according to Azyr and they're only 8 wounds! Troglydons also with 12 wounds.

Don't get me wrong, I adore my Troggbosses but they're pretty big models and hit hard enough it just strikes me as strange they lack monster keyword or behemoth typing, even though its probably a buff for them overall!

Fair enough!

Yeah, Troggbosses are definitely better off not braketing.

And removing it from Aleguzzler might actually make them decent.

**Gir Spirit Bane**

haha too true! I have a running tally of the two Gargants I run of what they've shoved in their pants. Always funny when a Chaos Knight just disappears and my opponent is looking at me like "... That's.... a rule..."

**Wayniac**

Apparently 17 Bonereapers players (probably all Petrifex) for the LVO Champs event...

**Stux**

Gir Spirit Bane wrote:
haha too true! I have a running tally of the two Gargants I run of what they've shoved in their pants. Always funny when a Chaos Knight just disappears and my opponent is looking at me like "... That's.... a rule..."

They're decent distraction carnifexes tbf. 12 wounds for 160pts, and the chance of that rule going off.

Quite like the idea of getting one for my Ogors.

**timetowaste85**

It’s nuts that Bonereapers get to keep their nutsoid rules, but an already tiny, elite, middle of the road Varanguard army gets nerfed into the ground.

**auticus**

Shocking.

So shocking.

Keep giving them your $ though

I know you hate me saying that but they consistently do things like this.

It seems that there are two teams. The for fun team and the off the wall nuts team.

The for fun team saw that their book was a little too nuts, so they nerfed it. Slaves to Darkness are pretty middle of the road, up from Chumps of Darkness that they were for years. But we don't want them getting too good, so they nerfed them to remain middle tier. Thats ... overall... good I think for the game.

The off the wall nuts team says "keep everything off the wall and nuts". Thats whats bad overall for the game. That lack of consistency and letting the power trifectas continue to plant their beanbags though cycling the power trifectas.

Intentionally? I think so. Because Bonereapers I feel will remain daddy tier until at least GHB 2020 and then get cycled out and new power trifecta will rise.

And the steam shovel of $$$ will unload its sweet cargo onto GW and the cycle will continue.

However if you aren't playing competitively, don't mind getting face stomped as long as you get to roll dice, or play in a supeer casual group where no one will take advantage of bad rules, things are still going great.

**Cronch**

Keep giving them your $ though

I will stop as soon as there's an alternative. It's either skirmish games, which I already have and don't need more of, or utter trash models like the KoW/Conquest.

If we are honest, I do have serious buyers' remorse in getting back into non-skirmish gaming, but seeing as it's my fault others in the group play it, I'm stuck with it for now.

**auticus**

If your primary drive to play these games is model driven then yeah, the gameplay s houldn't matter as much.

That being said, so many in KoW land use GW models and thats accepted and embraced.

Additionally people use GW models in Conquest as well (and personal opinions being used, one of the things i love about conquest are the models and aesthetics. I've loved painting most of the models I've run over the past 8 months or so).

**Cronch**

Which is still giving $ to GW, isn't it?