Tyranids Taking Over - May GTs

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**tneva82**

Jidmah wrote:
Insectum7 wrote:
Jidmah wrote:
The whole point is that the people working in the book printing part of GW don't care about how many models you buy or what your opinion of the company is. That's other people's problems.
They don't care how the company is doing overall? That sounds pretty dumb.

This is how all bigger companies work. GW isn't just a room full of guys who know each other anymore.

As for the people wanting to buy more codices - would you actually buy more than twice as many codices if you get the current codex content and content quality (including the amount of errata, update pdfs and lifetime) in a black&white softcover for $25?
Do you also think the majority of buyers would do that?

Edit: Just do clarify, before one of the usual suspects swoops in to spill their vitriol everywhere - I'm not defending GW or even a fan of this practice. I want fairly priced access to rules as much as everyone.
I'm just trying to explain that GW isn't a singular malicious being that operates with a genius masterplan, but a bunch of humans driven by different and often contradicting agendas, just like in any other company that has been around long enough. I have experienced this during my work for multiple companies of similar size and age as GW.

How many codex were 3-4ed? That's how many i got back then(with 1 own army). Albeit # of codexes has come up.

**Dysartes**

Jidmah wrote:
As for the people wanting to buy more codices - would you actually buy more than twice as many codices if you get the current codex content and content quality (including the amount of errata, update pdfs and lifetime) in a black&white softcover for $25?
Do you also think the majority of buyers would do that?

Make the books a spiral-bound soft-cover for $30 (or equivalent in proper monies), and yeah, I'm probably buying at least twice as many books. There's a lot of books for 8th/9th I'd pick up on a quiet month at that price range that I haven't so far in hardback.

Apply a similar level of discount (and formatting change) to the campaign books, and I might even consider them.

**Daedalus81**

BAO top 8. Blood Angels list makes use of Assault Cents finally instead of spamming only SG ( though he still has 21 ).

**Daedalus81**

Rumored point leaks.

If true they took the lazy way out on Warriors.

Maleceptor - +50pts (220pts)
Pyrovores - +10pts (40ppm)
Harpy - +10pts (170pts)
Warriors - +5ppm (30ppm)
Raveners - +5ppm (35ppm)
Hive Tyrant - +20pts (180pts)
Flyrant - +20pts (210pts)
Heavy Venom Cannons +5pts each (different prices for different units)

So Harpy goes up to 190pts with HVCs.

**Tyran**

Yikes, +50 pts is too much on the Maleceptor while +20pts is too little on the HVC Harpy.

**usernamesareannoying**

hi all... sorry but what are the points leak, one of those adjustment updates?

i hope its ok but im just getting interested in nids and wanted to ask what is the best commander option, is there one?

im going to start with a combat patrol but was wondering what to add after the hive tyrant.

thanks!

**Gadzilla666**

Daedalus81 wrote:
Rumored point leaks.

If true they took the lazy way out on Warriors.

Maleceptor - +50pts (220pts)
Pyrovores - +10pts (40ppm)
Harpy - +10pts (170pts)
Warriors - +5ppm (30ppm)
Raveners - +5ppm (35ppm)
Hive Tyrant - +20pts (180pts)
Flyrant - +20pts (210pts)
Heavy Venom Cannons +5pts each (different prices for different units)

So Harpy goes up to 190pts with HVCs.

Where are these leaks coming from? And are there any for other factions?

**Gene St. Ealer**

Daedalus81 wrote:
Rumored point leaks.

If true they took the lazy way out on Warriors.

Maleceptor - +50pts (220pts)
Pyrovores - +10pts (40ppm)
Harpy - +10pts (170pts)
Warriors - +5ppm (30ppm)
Raveners - +5ppm (35ppm)
Hive Tyrant - +20pts (180pts)
Flyrant - +20pts (210pts)
Heavy Venom Cannons +5pts each (different prices for different units)

So Harpy goes up to 190pts with HVCs.

Oof, that's a big Maleceptor nerf. And yeah, lazy in general. If you can adjust HVCs, why can't you adjust Boneswords and Deathspitters?

**Daedalus81**

Tyran wrote:
Yikes, +50 pts is too much on the Maleceptor while +20pts is too little on the HVC Harpy.

Possibly. I think the core workhorse of Nids ( Warriors / Raveners ) going up makes it harder for Harpies to exist. Maleceptor was still pretty popular and on top tables after the FAQ and it is T8 W15, which is gd beefy.

It could all be bs though.

**Tyel**

If it happens Tyranids will just pivot over to something like the Hydra list that got 2nd at BAO.

I think you could do more detail - but its the sort of cut that's probably necessary at this point. Nids are clearly too good.
Then put 2 points per model on Troupes and remove Hail of Doom.
Then maybe look at Tau (+5 points per crisis suit?) and you should be more or less there. Well, aside from buffing Ad Mech & DG.

**Daedalus81**

Gadzilla666 wrote:
Where are these leaks coming from? And are there any for other factions?

Rando Reddit - nothing else at the moment.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tyel wrote:
If it happens Tyranids will just pivot over to something like the Hydra list that got 2nd at BAO.

I think you could do more detail - but its the sort of cut that's probably necessary at this point. Nids are clearly too good.
Then put 2 points per model on Troupes and remove Hail of Doom.
Then maybe look at Tau (+5 points per crisis suit?) and you should be more or less there. Well, aside from buffing Ad Mech & DG.

Some people think Eldar need a solid whack and that the only thing holding them down is Nids. I'm not sure the data agrees with that though after poking around on fight club for a bit.

**Insectum7**

Jidmah wrote:
Insectum7 wrote:
Jidmah wrote:
The whole point is that the people working in the book printing part of GW don't care about how many models you buy or what your opinion of the company is. That's other people's problems.
They don't care how the company is doing overall? That sounds pretty dumb.

This is how all bigger companies work. GW isn't just a room full of guys who know each other anymore.

Having worked at a big creative company, we still wanted the company to be doing well because it meant more stability for our project/departments.

Jidmah wrote:

As for the people wanting to buy more codices - would you actually buy more than twice as many codices if you get the current codex content and content quality (including the amount of errata, update pdfs and lifetime) in a black&white softcover for $25?
Do you also think the majority of buyers would do that?

But that's a vast oversimplification of the formula too. There's also ease-of-entry for new players, and the fact that cheaper codexes can influence people to begin collecting more armies, as a good codex will also be an advert for models and their faction. There's also promoting good will of the community for the GW ecosystem overall.

Jidmah wrote:

Edit: Just do clarify, before one of the usual suspects swoops in to spill their vitriol everywhere - I'm not defending GW or even a fan of this practice. I want fairly priced access to rules as much as everyone.
I'm just trying to explain that GW isn't a singular malicious being that operates with a genius masterplan, but a bunch of humans driven by different and often contradicting agendas, just like in any other company that has been around long enough. I have experienced this during my work for multiple companies of similar size and age as GW.

A bunch of humans with contradicting agendas can make stupid decisions, obviously.

**Karol**

Well one could look at the win rates eldar have when they play vs a faction other then tyranids.

At least the squats are getting full blast leaked everywhere. So there is that to be happy about.
Wonder how many people are going to call judgment tokens, marker lights lol

**Tyran**

Daedalus81 wrote:

Possibly. I think the core workhorse of Nids ( Warriors / Raveners ) going up makes it harder for Harpies to exist. Maleceptor was still pretty popular and on top tables after the FAQ and it is T8 W15, which is gd beefy.

It could all be bs though.

The Maleceptor needed a nerf, but +50 pts is too much.

If true, I wouldn't expect to see Maleceptors anymore on the top tables, but I would still expect double Harpy to be popular because +20pts is not enough on them.

**Aenar**

Gadzilla666 wrote:
Where are these leaks coming from? And are there any for other factions?

From where the nids codex was leaked a month in advance.
Only these points so far, nothing about the other factions.

**Tyran**

Aenar wrote:
Gadzilla666 wrote:
Where are these leaks coming from? And are there any for other factions?

From where the nids codex was leaked a month in advance.
Only these points so far, nothing about the other factions.

For clarification, the leaks are from the Tyranid discord, and thus likely true as the discord has a good share of reliable sources.

And reading through it, the reception is mostly that those are fair changes, except the Maleceptor.

**ERJAK**

Karol wrote:
Well one could look at the win rates eldar have when they play vs a faction other then tyranids.

At least the squats are getting full blast leaked everywhere. So there is that to be happy about.
Wonder how many people are going to call judgment tokens, marker lights lol

Nids and Tau are the only factions keeping Eldar down. Nids are also the only thing keeping Harlies from jumping back up into the 70%+ winrate range. 40k fight club backs up those stats pretty well.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Aenar wrote:
Gadzilla666 wrote:
Where are these leaks coming from? And are there any for other factions?

From where the nids codex was leaked a month in advance.
Only these points so far, nothing about the other factions.

There is a rumor about 'every 50-55%+ winrate army getting bumps' but A) That one doesn't even HAVE a source and B) That's the only context. It's barely even a rumor but I thought I'd mention it for completeness sake.

**Hecaton**

Gene St. Ealer wrote:

Oof, that's a big Maleceptor nerf. And yeah, lazy in general. If you can adjust HVCs, why can't you adjust Boneswords and Deathspitters?

I legit don't know. Maybe they have some edict about having to make troops choices be assembled however and be the same points? IDFK.

**Karol**

What is better to nerf. A single box with a monster, or 3-4 boxes of warriors?

**Gene St. Ealer**

Karol wrote:
What is better to nerf. A single box with a monster, or 3-4 boxes of warriors?

I'm not sure I get it. I'm fine with Warriors getting a nerf overall. This just wasn't the right way to do it. And I do think the Harpy should have been hit harder by the nerf bat.

**Afrodactyl**

Dysartes wrote:
Jidmah wrote:
As for the people wanting to buy more codices - would you actually buy more than twice as many codices if you get the current codex content and content quality (including the amount of errata, update pdfs and lifetime) in a black&white softcover for $25?
Do you also think the majority of buyers would do that?

Make the books a spiral-bound soft-cover for $30 (or equivalent in proper monies), and yeah, I'm probably buying at least twice as many books. There's a lot of books for 8th/9th I'd pick up on a quiet month at that price range that I haven't so far in hardback.

Apply a similar level of discount (and formatting change) to the campaign books, and I might even consider them.

If they made the rulebooks and codices spiral bound and sold them at a lower price I would be way more inclined to actually buy them.

They could release their erratas online alongside a printable updated version of the corresponding book page. Print out the new page and replace the one in your book. Suddenly the physical books are as updateable as the digital ones.

**H.B.M.C.**

Maleceptor - +50pts (220pts)
Hive Tyrant - +20pts (180pts)
Flyrant - +20pts (210pts)

50 points on top of the other nerfs it got? What the fething feth, GW?

GW continues to impress with their inability to balance rules, and instead just swing that pendulum with all their slow strength.

And cool, Hive Tyrants continue to pay for being effective units.

I knew buying that Codex was a stupid fething idea. Both it and the cards are invalid already...

**Daedalus81**

H.B.M.C. wrote:
Maleceptor - +50pts (220pts)
Hive Tyrant - +20pts (180pts)
Flyrant - +20pts (210pts)
50 points on top of the other nerfs it got? What the fething feth, GW?

GW continues to impress with their inability to balance rules, and instead just swing that pendulum with all their slow strength.

And cool, Hive Tyrants continue to pay for being effective units.

I knew buying that Codex was a stupid fething idea. Both it and the cards are invalid already...

Yea...as much as I love books...not a great product right now.

**Dudeface**

Daedalus81 wrote:
H.B.M.C. wrote:
Maleceptor - +50pts (220pts)
Hive Tyrant - +20pts (180pts)
Flyrant - +20pts (210pts)
50 points on top of the other nerfs it got? What the fething feth, GW?

GW continues to impress with their inability to balance rules, and instead just swing that pendulum with all their slow strength.

And cool, Hive Tyrants continue to pay for being effective units.

I knew buying that Codex was a stupid fething idea. Both it and the cards are invalid already...

Yea...as much as I love books...not a great product right now.

Yet people want better faster balance, it's a catch 22 for printed mediums

**Mr. Burning**

Dudeface wrote:
Daedalus81 wrote:
H.B.M.C. wrote:
Maleceptor - +50pts (220pts)
Hive Tyrant - +20pts (180pts)
Flyrant - +20pts (210pts)
50 points on top of the other nerfs it got? What the fething feth, GW?

GW continues to impress with their inability to balance rules, and instead just swing that pendulum with all their slow strength.

And cool, Hive Tyrants continue to pay for being effective units.

I knew buying that Codex was a stupid fething idea. Both it and the cards are invalid already...

Yea...as much as I love books...not a great product right now.

Yet people want better faster balance, it's a catch 22 for printed mediums

Its not catch 22.

Better balance involves GW giving crap about the product it releases.

**H.B.M.C.**

Exactly.

For all the "wait and see"'s out there, there are things in these books that are obvious from the moment they arrive.

Obvious to us, that is. For some reason GW can't ever see the woods for the trees, and is either incapable or just unwilling to do proper testing. And it shows. It always shows. Book after book after book.

If not for Hanlon and his mighty razor, I would honestly think it's intentional.

**Dudeface**

H.B.M.C. wrote:
Exactly.

For all the "wait and see"'s out there, there are things in these books that are obvious from the moment they arrive.

Obvious to us, that is. For some reason GW can't ever see the woods for the trees, and is either incapable or just unwilling to do proper testing. And it shows. It always shows. Book after book after book.

If not for Hanlon and his mighty razor, I would honestly think it's intentional.

Yeah this all true but there will always be some point or rule tweaks and an errata for typos or whatever, it might even only ever be for 1 line in the book but it still renders the book incorrect.

I'm not really sure people what or expect to happen, have a codex that it utterly immutable and never gets faqd or rebalanced? I know people whined about that enough back in the day. Even if it was "closer" to "balanced" at release, it'll still change and everyone buying the book knows that, you read these forums knowing the book was coming out the gates too good and still bought it. Why are you now angry that the balance pass you knew was coming is going to happen and render the printed material (well, 2 pages) obsolete like you knew it would?

**H.B.M.C.**

Dudeface wrote:
Yeah this all true but there will always be some point or rule tweaks and an errata for typos or whatever, it might even only ever be for 1 line in the book but it still renders the book incorrect.

I'm not talking about the odd error or typo. I'm talking about massive power imbalance that's there from the word go.

How did the Eldar book make it to print with the Harlis in the state they were? The Custodes? The AdMech and Dark Eldar before them. These weren't simply "tweaks" or a point here and there that needed adjusting.

**Dudeface**

H.B.M.C. wrote:
Dudeface wrote:
Yeah this all true but there will always be some point or rule tweaks and an errata for typos or whatever, it might even only ever be for 1 line in the book but it still renders the book incorrect.
I'm not talking about the odd error or typo. I'm talking about massive power imbalance that's there from the word go.

How did the Eldar book make it to print with the Harlis in the state they were? The Custodes? The AdMech and Dark Eldar before them. These weren't simply "tweaks" or a point here and there that needed adjusting.

That's not relevant, you were complaining your printed material was invalidated, by points tweaks. I understand you're trying to say balance it better before release, but it would still need errata and points changes even then.

Yet again, you frequent the forums here enough to have seen that everyone was saying nids were going to be too strong, you knew they'd need to amend the points and or rules to balance them, then bought it anyway just to complain the expected changes happen.

**EightFoldPath**

Ideally...

First, the points (and power levels) should not be in the codexes or a chapter approved book. Instead all the points (and power levels) are in PDFs on the website.

Second, the codexes are written in a somewhat reasonable fashion so that they require as few errata to rules as possible, and just slight points changes to tweak the balance between codexes.

But, that second point is a long long way from possible for the current rules writing team. How many times are they going to write a strategem that breaks the game before they learn not to?