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We all know how to reliably kill a landraider in close combat. Noone doubts that. Warboss, bike, powerclaw - finito. Nobz squad, PK, charge. Tankbustas. Yes.
We know how to kill a landraider via Mech. DCCW, Deffrolla. Joy.

I'm going to lay out to you a couple of systems I have found to break that last boundary, the one we ask ouselves when we know we're going up against a CC heavy army and really don't want to attack directly. Gunfire. Dakka boyz dakka. That said, when writing this I won't treat this as a vaccum, so synergies I have found that work will be mentioned.

This will be done over several sittings so please refrain from telling me what I've missed until the end. Refining the points made, go ahead. Just remember to have fun.


Part 1.

When Shooting at a landraider you have to consider 3 things. Dakka, fizzle and leave stuff.
Dakka - Means your range and your rate of fire. 1 strength 8 rokkit is .... flawed. 20 rokkits - will generally glance it to death eventually.
Mellee range means you have to get there. 60" is a whole lot safer.

Fizzle - Strength AP and special affects.

Leave stuff - How much can you ignore cover? With shooting this is not easy to do. Yes, we have barrage weapons - but they're strength 5 and its not good for the vehicle. So We have to look elsewhere in this.

Rokkits Before you start any anti tank ideal you should always assess how many rokkits you have. Rokkits come in many forms the easiest of which is 3 in a boyz squad.
'Why you should': Including rokkits enables you to at least glance vehicles - and something don't consider is that rokkits ignore most SM amour. AP2+ is all it doesn't ignore and this is good against units you're going to assault later.
'Why you might not': Single shots. Each rokkit only has 1 shot and with BS 2 you might not hit often. You're also giving up either CC attacks (sluggas) or Big shootas (3 shots) - things more likely to get through.
Doesn't mean I don't take at least 2 a squad.

Kustom Mega Blastas One AP up, more costly and Gets hot.
You can get them many places but the only 2 I find worth it are on you walkers. Dreads are a key here. You can slug on 1 DCCW on a deffdread, throw on a KMB and have the extra 24" before you close for the kill. I suggest on dreads rather than Meks, where they are otherwise found, due to the Gets hot rule. With BS 2, you already have a risk, why add further risk to it?

(To be continued)

To add to the KMB Killa Kans can get it as well, and they are BS3 actually makes it worth the 55 points per Kan to have a S8 ap2 that hits half the time. More expensive than on a Deff dread but it hits 16.66% more often

The disadvantage of making Kanz your anti tank is that you then make them a tank target, and usually the tanks are better outfitted to kill you then you are to kill them.

the_ferrett wrote:

Rokkits Before you start any anti tank ideal you should always assess how many rokkits you have. Rokkits come in many forms the easiest of which is 3 in a boyz squad.
'Why you should': Including rokkits enables you to at least glance vehicles - and something don't consider is that rokkits ignore most SM amour. AP2+ is all it doesn't ignore and this is good against units you're going to assault later.
'Why you might not': Single shots. Each rokkit only has 1 shot and with BS 2 you might not hit often. You're also giving up either CC attacks (sluggas) or Big shootas (3 shots) - things more likely to get through.
Doesn't mean I don't take at least 2 a squad.

Kustom Mega Blastas One AP up, more costly and Gets hot.
You can get them many places but the only 2 I find worth it are on you walkers. Dreads are a key here. You can slug on 1 DCCW on a deffdread, throw on a KMB and have the extra 24" before you close for the kill. I suggest on dreads rather than Meks, where they are otherwise found, due to the Gets hot rule. With BS 2, you already have a risk, why add further risk to it?

Just a couple of points here, you're saying we should put ork 'heavy' weapons in boys squads... to shoot at AV 14 with? Instead or running? Or shooting at infantry?

And what exactly do you mean by KMB on dreads not on 'Mek's'... did you mean the optional model upgrade characters... for Burnas and Lootas??? Because I would hope you could mention Kanz - as in Killa Kans - you know the other unit that could take rokkits or KMB, and the whole Kans having BS3...


I think you should maybe discuss some of your ideas and opinions before posting things which are geranally against the grain...

Considering how Orks basicly have no weapons that can penAV 14 due to complete lack of non variable S9+ shooting or melta weapons, I fail to see how any of this crap matters. Ork rokkits are terrible, unless on twin linked models (buggies and koptas) or gretchen are shooting them (kans and Kannon batteries). Kustom mega blastas are the same way. You can take them on meks, but why would anyone replace an expensive burna boy or loota with a guy just as likely to fry himself as he is to even wound an infantry model, let alone his chances of effecting decent armor. A big mek has more important things to carry, so that isn't really an option either.

Sure you can try to glance AV 14 to death with rokkits... with BS 2 and MAYBE 3, good luck with that.

notabot187 wrote: Ork rokkits are terrible, unless on twin linked models (buggies and koptas) or gretchen are shooting them (kans and Kannon batteries).

Really, have you heard of tankbusta's?

A full mob is 15 models, minus the two tankhammers you'll have 13 shots at a tank.

There's a reason Orks are a volume of fire army. With 13 friggin' rokkits you're bound to do something even to a LR.

Yeah and I've also heard of the gloryhogs rule...

To be useful to shoot at a landraider with orks - don't.

There is a miniscule chance that oneday you'll be in a position where shooting you rokkits at that land raider untill they do something will be the best choice one could make in the game. Until that happens deal with the threats close to you until one of your dozen or so Str9 PKs hit the damn things or your Str10 rollas seen as your close and not shooting with BS2 when you don't have to.

ChrisCP wrote:Yeah and I've also heard of the gloryhogs rule...

Line of Sight is your friend with that mob of gits.

ChrisCP wrote:To be useful to shoot at a landraider with orks - don't.

Sorry, I believe Orks can shoot, and take out vehicles.

Thankyou Chris, I think the people of dakka are enamoured by your help.

ChrisCP wrote:To be useful to shoot at a landraider with orks - don't.

QFT

sqir666 wrote:Sorry, I believe Orks can shoot, and take out vehicles.

My landraider at that to be quite frank

the_ferrett wrote:Thankyou Chris, I think the people of dakka are enamoured by your help.

I think most of them are with him...

Part 1 session 2
Kustom Mega Blastas continued and Tankbustas - also known as Q and A
I don't profess to know everything. I do profess that my weapon of choice is a shooty Ork army. I do profess that I've seen was too many people ask how to shoot a Landraider to death not to answer in my own way. This aside.

Why have I not touched Tankbustas? I believe tankbustas should ideally be used in combination with Mech armies (giving them a transport) or Mad Dok Grotsnik (warning, you will need to discuss with your enemy how the orks react in most situations before you start). Either way, your main purpose with tankbustas is to get those Strength 10 CC attacks onto the vehicles, and as such your job as general is no longer to think of them as a 'shooty' unit. Yes, the rokkits are nice in this way, and yes, the quantity over quality rokkits comment still exists, but again, you should be thinking one thing - getting them into CC. And once you hit CC you should now be reading a CC Tactica.

KMBs on Kanz. I disagree. The BS is nice, but I'd rather not. Firstly you're now putting 2 high anti tank weapons on something that can't survive to small tanks let alone a Landraider. Its basically shining a flashing light over your kanz going "Pick me. Pick me!" And still all you can do is glance in the shooting stage. Keep the kanz for grotzookas and taking out infantry. If they get to CC with the landaider, fabulous, but if you're specifically planning to use a KMB to kill a landraider - don't.

As a side note, I say landraider, but this advice can also apply to monoliths, and vaious of the AV13 tanks, just changing 'glancing' to penetrating.

Heck. Count Mephiston as a tank and you still have decent advice.

Boomgun - Because eventually someone will ask.
Mr looted wagon .... I give you a thumbs down. And not even for the obvious reason. I could give you credit... if you weren't a highly expensive blast rokkit. Don't pess dat doesn't worry me - the fact that you're better used as a heavy infantry cleaner is. Please tell me now, why would I spend 105 points on something that kills infantry incredibly well, just to fire it at something I can only glance? So no. Skip over you boomwagon when looking for things to kill that landraider.

Heck, roll in the Kannon here as well. Its just not worth the change of fire pattern.

Now for my fun parts, the random fellas.

Warpheads
I sincerely hope you bought warphead for you weirdboy. Weirdboys need that little bit of oomph that the warphead provides and it allows you to select the power you need. In this case, you need to roll a 3. Zzapp. Some will tell you warpheads don't work fo them.... well did they roll twice? Did they take the time to realise that they roll their power before their target? So if you only roll a waargh you can try again? Did you put your warphead in with a mob to get that leadership 10? (Not to keep a warphead mob medium sized - 20 will help. Ere we go with 30 orks is guaranteed failure) Now, you have a 2/6 (1d6 + 1d6) chance of getting a strength 10 melta shot - that autohits. Tell me again how this 1/3 Landraider killer is not a good choice again...

If you're feeling really adventurous, get Old Zogwort for 145 points. Same slot, but now you have d6 2+ poisoned attacks at I4, 1 more toughness, 1 more wound... great fo destroying those low initiative, non power weaponed armies. AND you still get your shooting tank killer.


Shokk Attack Gun.

12,11,10 - 5 in 36 chance of destruction via strength 10 hits. Scatters, yes. Is that tank big enough to risk it.... yes to a point. Personally I still use the SAG to mop up clusters of troops first. That said, when you're up against small bands of elite troops in vehicles, firing this thing at a landraider.... just works. And that's without considering the remaining 8/36 chance of getting a 8 or 9. Those still have a chance of damaging it. Use preferentiably is my siggestion.


Wazdakka
I considered him my field and not a biker PK heaven because of a simple combo - bike of the apocalypse and dakkacannon. That's all those str 8 attacks and a turbo boost from the deployment zone. THEN next turn you can possibly PK the landraider if its not put out of action. Wazdakka is about a 1-2 punch and I personally think he excells at this.

Zzapp gunz
Here's the tricky choice. For a shooty army, zzapp gunz are a must. The choice is how to field them. Do we field 1 on a battlewagon, giving it that nice AV 14 but sacrificing weight of shots? Do we put it on the less mobile and more fragile AV 10 big gunz squads? Now we get 3, and possible rerolls to hit if we buy ammo grots. This one I put down to a simple personal choice and the likelihood that you have cover (which varies from gaming group to gaming group). I tend to say the big gunz, but then I tend to gamble and find the extra armor and points useful elsewhere. I do have to insist - if you're planning to shoot a landaider, you need these guyz in your team. You also need to distract your opponent from noticing these guys. If you went battlewagon - do you have a roller wagon in your army to hound him with? If you went big gunz - make sure something like lootas are in your team attacking his vulnerables. You want to make sure nomatter what you're doing that he's not got his eyes locked on the big gunz. Because these boyz take time to power up unless you are really lucky.

The truth about orks, shooting and landraiders is mixing up multiple of these options and a few complimentary goodies from the CC and Mech sides. Heck, dip one of these guys into your perfect Kan wall or wagon rush, if you have the points and use them effectively you might just see yourself stress less when that Landraider comes onto the field.

Part 2 will contain futher synegies. See you then.

Ferrett, you PMed me this link, so don't be offended that I'm responding.

It seems like lately some people on Dakka are embracing a trend of "counter-wisdom." Threads like, "Take this terrible unit and presume you're a great general - how would you fit it into an army list?" Well...my good generalship says not to use it. This thread has that feel - Orks can be built into any kind of army you like, but like in all things, you should build to the task at hand.

Bottom Line Up Front (BLUF): Neither Rokkits nor KMBs are the answer to Land Raiders.


1. Here's an analogy to taking rokkits to deal with land raiders: You're mowing your grass. With scissors. Adding a second pair of scissors will make it go faster. Adding 10 people all with scissors will make it go faster still. Or...you could get a lawn mower, which is MADE for mowing lawns.

2. That is the fundamental issue with this thread. Rokkits are STR8 and not meant for dealing with Land Raiders; Orks have Deff Rollas, Powerklaws, and DCCWs to deal with Land Raiders.

3. Rokkits don't have the advantage of range. A rokkit is 24" assault 1. I play Orks. My Battlewagons are AV14 up front. I have a 30" assault range. That means that your rokkits will get either one or zero turns of shooting at me before I assault. Against space marine land raiders, 12" move, 2" disembark with 2" base terminators + 6" assault: 21". You get one, possibly two turns of shooting at the land raider(s) before you get assaulted / burninated /etc.

Lets math hammer this out.

You have 5 mobs of Ork boyz, each with three rokkits (15), meaning you have 30 boyz per mob. With a nob/powerklaw/bosspole in each, that's 1,250 points worth of boyz. Shooting at a 250 point land raider.

15 Rokkits @ BS2: 5 hits to be generous. 6 to glance: ~79% chance of a single glance. 1: Shaken. 2: Shaken. 3: Shaken. 4: Stunned(probably shaken with extra armor). 5: Weapon Destroyed. 6: Immobilized. Now, the landraider can shrug off 1-5. Shaken is meaningless because PotMS can still fire a weapon, and if you've got 1,250 worth of boyz shooting, tacking on a multi-melta or an assault cannon to the shooting isn't going to be meaningful. So you have a 16% chance of immobilizing it...combined with the 79% chance of a single glance. That means if you fire 15 rokkits at a land raider, you have a 12% chance of causing an immobilization. I can't speak for your dice rolling, but mine are never good enough to be statistical when I need them to be.

Orks have the tools to deal with anything that an enemy army can bring to the table, but putting the wrong tools to the job makes no sense. If Rokkits were 60" weapons...maybe. But they're not. They're a short to mid-range weapon, and once you're in range to shoot them, you're in a turn or next turn assault.

Worse, if you're dedicating rokkit fire to a land raider from a boyz squad, it isn't firing on threats its capable of dealing with - infantry.

4. Rokkits also come on killa-kans, and kannons (heavy support artillery) is STR8, albeit 36". You can also get them on trukks and battlewagons....but each of these have their own issues.
-Killakans: Killakans have a STR10 DCCW. Equipping them with rokkits is popular, primarily because orks need any anti-tank that they can get. But those STR8 rokkits are meant to be a BS3 means of opening rhinos and razorbacks and chimeras as you cross the field into close combat to apply those STR10 weapons.
-Tank Bustas have been addressed - they have their own strengths and weaknesses, but at the end of the day, they're 15 points apiece for a moderately effective weapon that is also only moderately reliable.
-Rokkit spam on battlewagons: Again, 24" range. Either you're sitting still with your battlewagons and getting outranged by lascannons, missile launchers, autocannons, railguns, lances, granny's elephant gun, and my air-powered potato gun, or you're moving up to get close to those targets...in which case you're not shooting anyway and still getting outranged.

Everything comes back to the 24" range: Orks have SO much more ability to affect landraiders inside the 24" range bubble than rokkits, and if you dedicate your entire army to shooting at a single land raider, which you have a slim chance of actually hurting with the weapons you're shooting at it, your game is over.

If you want to build an effective ork shooty list....do what pretty much every list writer (except for Tau) does: Include an assault element. I would go so far as to say that rokkits are the WORST addition you could make to a shooty based army because you probably have 30-45 Lootas, which have volume of fire to to deal with transports. Rokkits won't add much to the mix there. Lootas can't hurt Land Raiders, rokkits are the least effective tool to do so, and not a value-add to the Lootas ability to take down transports...meaning that you need another tool for Land Raiders: Powerklaws! A few Nob bikers, a warboss on an attack bike...some Deffdreads or Killa-kans with DCCWs....all valid tools.

And this doesn't even address mechanized potential, deffrollas, boarding planks, but simply a foot-slogging or gunline / shooty based ork list.

Moral of the Story: If you have the wrong tool for the job, don't add more of the wrong tools, get the right one.

Dashofpepper wrote:...good advice...

Second'd. I appreciate the heart behind this thread, but throwing rokkits, KMB shots, zzap guns, kannons, SAGs at landraiders... those are last ditch efforts, not primary tactics. Orks are not built for cracking AV13/14 at range. AV 12 and under? Yeah, rokkits and lootas can deal with that just fine. For the other tanks, assault for rear armor goodness. Depending on your ork build, most LRs can't do much damage to you; it's the stuff inside you need to focus on. Ignore it until it's close, kill what's inside, and take your deffrolla hits/PK swings.

Hell, Warbuggies assist in busting a Land Raider, if only by zooming forward, and blocking off movement routes so that the Marine player cannot *escape* your Deffrollas, or can only attain Combat Speed at max. Warbossess like it better when they can hit their vehicles on a 4+.

The problem with giving Rokkits to Boys is extreme cost-inefficiency. 70 points per BS 2 Rocket before we take the Nob into account? That prevents my hordes of Orks from Running to entering close combat, and forces them to waste their anti-infantry on a vehicle? Sign me up!

I actually use a squadron of Warbuggies in my typical mechanized lists. The rokkits rarely do anything - they more importantly channel enemy forces away from me, or where I want them to go.

Here's a few examples:

This is a picture of my warbuggies screening my battlewagons from getting assaulted by the assault terminators in that land raider. There will be no ramming either.



This is a picture of me using warbuggies to prevent a turn1 alpha strike. Mechvets / Vets with meltabombs or melta guns in a vendetta (that goes first and also scouts) can get a turn1 alpha-strike against your vehicles if you let them.


In this picture, my warbuggies are helping form a screen against deep striking drop pods. I don't want sternguard with 5-10 meltaguns apiece getting to drop in next to my battlewagons inside the 6" mark and messing me up.


I have many more examples, but hopefully those do the trick.

Why would there be no tank shock in that 1st photo? That Land raider could declare 12" shock and tear into the buggies with the intent to hit the Battlewagon with no issue.

Even if it only moves 6 inches it will be a Str 7 hit on those open topped buggies. So 4+ pens, and 4+ destroys (due to +1 for openned top) it so it can continue moving.

Now I like using the buggies 'cause I love me some scorchas. But this is not a 100% effective defense.

Picture 2 will let you get cover saves vs. those melta vets so is somewhat effective.

Picture 3 is a pretty decent use.

You can't just *destroy* a vehicle. You have to make it Explode. In the first picture, it probably would have made more sense to park the buggies closer to the Land Raider, as well as to help keep the Speeders from getting their Melta bonus against you, but the concept is still right.

Dashofpepper wrote:15 Rokkits @ BS2: 5 hits to be generous. 6 to glance: ~79% chance of a single glance. 1: Shaken. 2: Shaken. 3: Shaken. 4: Stunned(probably shaken with extra armor). 5: Weapon Destroyed. 6: Immobilized. Now, the landraider can shrug off 1-5. Shaken is meaningless because PotMS can still fire a weapon, and if you've got 1,250 worth of boyz shooting, tacking on a multi-melta or an assault cannon to the shooting isn't going to be meaningful. So you have a 16% chance of immobilizing it...combined with the 79% chance of a single glance. That means if you fire 15 rokkits at a land raider, you have a 12% chance of causing an immobilization. I can't speak for your dice rolling, but mine are never good enough to be statistical when I need them to be.

And how many MEQ/Rhinos/Dreads/Necrons/Scorpions/'nid Warriors would those same 15 rockets kill? You don't mow down grass with sissors, you make origami -- as dash said.

Those buggies always have cover saves regardless of where they are due to their proximity to my KFF. They don't all always have a 4+ save, but it isn't needed.

In the first picture, I'm not worried about the land raider trying to ram into battlewagon. To do so, several things need to happen: He would have to take and pass a dangerous terrain test, ram one or more likely two buggies...explode them...and oh wait: When you ram a vehicle in a squadron, I still get to decide where the glance or penetrating hit is allocated. And then the land raider would be stuck at my buggies, not able to disembark out of the front.

In that game, I was wagering that my opponent would instead disembark and try either assaulting my buggies or going around - either way not getting to my battlewagon this turn. I was right; he assaulted my buggies. Wrecked one too. But my battlewagons were safe and the next turn I did bad things to his land raiders with deffrollas, boarding planks, etc.
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That's getting off-topic, we're supposed to be talking about rokkits here!

I agree with Dash here entirely.

You just cannot shoot a land raider in an ork army. Can't be done; it is a desperation tactic.

rokkits/KMB/Kannonz will only glance it and for every 15 rokkits you only have a 12% chance of doing that. And you still have to do this 4-5 more times to "glance it to death." you're actually looking at something on the order of 300 rokkit shots to guarantee a dead land raider. That's absurd.

Boomguns are no better and now you're wasting an ordnance gun.

Zzzaps are worse than those weapons the vast majority of the time. There are only 10 possible dice combinations that are superior to str 8 out of a possible 36 combinations so you have less than a 1/3 chance of being better than a rokkit. Zzzaps are crap guns.

SAGs of course can pen a landraider in shooting but you'd have to be lucky to do so and like the Boomgun you're wasting the ordnance weapon on vehicles when it should be going after elite infantry.

Now the Warphead can actually go after a landraider. auto-hitting str 10 melta is an ork players wet dream for anti-tank. But you still have to roll up that power, pass the test and get through the psychic hood. The odds if you get the power off are great but getting that power at the right time are low. Warphead's are fun but they aren't good and they'll never be as reliable as a power-klaw, deffrolla or DCCW.

We have the tools to open a landraider, use them, don't try and retrofit tools for a different job to opening land raiders. That's just stupid.

Mr brave. Oh mr Brave. The object of my 'wisdom' is not to say yours is bad. The object of my wisdom is to assist people in using those units that you tell them never to take. I'm giving tactics fo the silence because Its a codex with loads of options and lots of possibility. The net seems to forget that. The net also forgets that the codex is designed to have that random flavour. Try less to tell me how 'wrong' I am, and instead, assuming you had to use these elements, tell me how you'd synergise, play and what importance you'd put on each. Might not be your playstyle - congatulations, you already have wonderful resources like Dash's blogs (something I would advise all ork players to at least read once). Just... give me the benifit of the doubt with this.

Ferret...we're not saying "Don't take boyz" or "Don't take artillery" or "Don't take killa-kans." We're not telling people never to take these units.

Instead, we're saying that parts of the codex are designed for different jobs, and recognizing the most efficient use of your tools is the most important part of good generalship.

Rokkits are great. Rokkits on Killa-kans wit BS3 are even better. My typical ork list has 6 sets of twin-linked rokkits in it from deffkoptas and warbuggies. I use those rokkits to shoot rhinos, or side armor on tanks, or to insta-kill tyranid warriors, or cause a wound to an MC, or to drop a marine or two out of a squad that I'm about to assault. Rokkits are STR8 AP2. I don't shoot those rokkits at terminators because they would get an armor save against it and I have better tools to deal with terminators (boyz. Lots of boyz). I don't shoot those rokkits at guardsmen or ork boyz because I have better tools for dealing with them. Nor do I shoot them at land raiders; I have better tools for that.

Good generalship is about finding the best use of the tools you have and making the most of them. There's no need to try fitting a square peg into a round hole when the Ork codex gives you both kinds of pegs and both kinds of holes.


Oh, and I'm not a blogger. >< I write battle reports on Dakka here, and dabble in ork tactics and such, but that's about it.

No one is trying to squash your tactics or anything, but rather point out that trying to develop an army list based on killing landraiders at range with orks is counter-productive and against what orks do well: close ground and krump stuff in person.

As stated above, I generally "ignore" landraiders until they close to assault range, which they will do on their own volition. If someone's using a landraider as a gun platform and hiding back and shooting, well, I thank them because that's the poorest use of the vehicle and they've sunk 250ish points into an assault vehicle that doesn't assault and I now have less to kill at the point of impact.

If the landraider is used as a spearhead vehicle, as was intended, then it will be in deffrolla/powerklaw range when it comes to deliver its payload and I have all sorts of good tools to deal with it. Orks don't get melta guns or bombs, but we get deffrollas and powerklaws which are close enough. Our shooting, be it rokkit, loota, kannon, or other, is best used to cripple enemy transports, to give us assault opportunities, or pop pest vehicles (landspeeders, war walkers, etc.) that threaten what the rest of the boyz are trying to accomplish. That's synergy, maximizing your units and what they can do in each phase of the game to make your moves progressively stronger.

To the OP: Let me see if I can help you. As has been stated before, cracking a land raider at range as orks is obnoxiously difficult, so my advice runs along that of Bacon Bodka.

Your list is shooty. That's a perfectly good list, even if it's not in vogue right now. Still, there are a ton of ways a shooty ork list deals with the land raider. As Bacon Vodka said, you can just ignore them when they're being used as gun platforms. If you're going to do so, though, you'll still have to deal with LCs if you have some vulnerable vehicles. Always (if you can) point BWs towards the LRs, to take the edge off of S9 with your excellent front armor. With other vehicles, none of which have excellent armor, try to get obscured behind your BWs and other cover. With Kans and Dreads this is going to be difficult, but these you can get into combat to avoid enemy shooting. Note that your buggies especially can be modeled with low profiles (a la SM attacj bikes) to make it easier to get cover saves, and can always move flat out. Meganobz, which are comparatively vulnerable to S9 AP 2 fire have just gotta hide behind or in a BW (or even a truck) and they'll be fine. As for lootas, I'd say that area terrain is your best bet.

Now, the assault LR is, I'm just going to agree, hard to deal with. Ideally, your enemy wants to start his turn with it within 20 inches, so that he can move 12, disembark 2, and assault 6. First, if you can at all avoid letting it get that close, do so. Second, if he gets close, put up an unassaultable unit. Even Assault Terminators (the cargo of most assault LRs) don't like to assault big mobs of slugga boyz, just because they have a decent chance of losing a couple even if they make the assault. Grots are even more of a nightmare for the assault terminator. They are a total waste of the enemy's effort and can be used to make certain that your army gets the assault, which is vital with orks. So, ideally, you want to set up a worthless unit, or one with good volume, in front of a dangerous one to Terminators or the wagon itself, such as a Deff Dread or meganobz. Even a shooting army should have at least one dread or unit of kanz (preferably more rather than fewer of the latter). Since the enemy player has to get within 8" to make that assault happen, you should be able to position yourself close enough to nail it when the enemy moves up to assault. A warboss in a bike is perfect, since he's got massive S and a nice little cover save. Otherwise, trukk with a ram, moving at full speed. It's only 40 points, but it's a S10 hit, and that's probably your best bet.

If you don't have any melee troops at all, then these weapons are your best bet: Kannons are ok (and, more importantly, cheap, although they use up one of your excellent HS slots), and Zzap guns are, as noted above, not excellent, but passable. I'd say they're actually better than kannons, since they can get penetrating hits, which kannons cannot. In this case, mount them on a BW, high up. A big tall turret is good for this, since it allows you to maximize cover negation. If your opponent calls shenanigans, well, you didn't hear it from me . With grot-operated, get them behind a low wall with a good field of fire. TL rokkits on Koptas are also alright, although a little vulnerable. The SAG is a wonder--if you can hit with it. I wouldn't shoot it at an LR though unless no better target presented itself (hint, those termis have to jump out sometime). Still, at S 8, you're looking at 1/3 glancing hits, at s 9, 1/3 penetrating and 2/9 glancing, and at s10, 5/9 penetrating. With the warphead, once again it's a long shot, but it can be done.

Here's my advice to you: if the land raider concerns you, try to have at least three ways of dealing with it. A slashy/stabby deff dread in reserve, a warphead well hidden in a grot unit, and some koptas with rokkits all together will ensure that you've got something that can make life nasty for that tank wherever it tries to assault you.

I love the SAG mek, and have been using it to some effect lately. However, you really need two of them, to negate randomization, which means no KFF mek to protect the battlewagons or killa kans. So, you have to weaken one part of your list to buttress up the other, and I'm not sure the two SAG meks beats out the kan wall or loota bunkers in terms of effectiveness.

One thing in favor of the zzap batteries against the SAG meks: the sequence of rolling strength. With the SAG mek, you declare the target first, and the strength second; with the zzap guns, you can roll the strength first, and declare the target second (there's no language in the rules as written how you sequence this with the zzap guns).

Either way, both the SAG meks and the zzap batteries need all the ammo runts their allowed, for when high strength rolls are made. I have an 1850 shootaboy list that incorporates

I have a list where I incorporate two SAG Meks, nine zzap guns, and 45 lootas. The redundancy breaks up some randomness. Unfortunately, there's an un-orky air to the list, where the boys act as screens for the randomators.

I would agree that its so much easier to just block them off with buggies, and hit them with Deffrollas and Pks, they'll crack eventually.

See, your saying that by glancing the LR, you can evenually stun or immobilize it. You can't destroy it with rokkits, just slow it down.

But you could just use other strategies to slow it down, and put those rokkits into rhinos or marines, or really anything else.

Speaking of which, I was thinking Kannons would be better than Zzap guns. Any reason why the zzap guns are better? Assuming you spam them.

Snikkyd - The potential for str 10 AP 2 shots. With auto shaken if you manage to hit the vehicle in question.

Except Land Raiders give a flying flip about Shaken.

MagicJuggler wrote:Except Land Raiders give a flying flip about Shaken.

Indeed. They still get to move 12" and still get to fire one weapon.

the_ferrett wrote:Snikkyd - The potential for str 10 AP 2 shots. With auto shaken if you manage to hit the vehicle in question.

Yeah, but is str 9 and 10 some of the time better than str 8 all the time? And frags. I'd like to see the math on it.