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Warhammer 40k has picked up (apparently) in popularity in my area over the last few years. My attempts to interest people in the other wargames I play/collect for have failed, and since I want to get the Wargaming back on for me, I figured I might as well pick up 40k again. I am considering scout heavy Marines, because I like the scout models and Marines have always been a cheaper option than Guard, which was what I played when I quit.

Thing is, I haven't played since the very end of 3rd edition. I've heard they removed the "Design your own chapter" thing using Chapter Abilities, which is very unfortunate. That seemed like an interesting system even if I never used it. Is a scout heavy force (naturally backed up by other battle brothers and vehicles but based around scouts) a viable army or am I chasing the wind? How different is 5th from 3rd? I've kept up with a few developments here and there (even getting myself one of those newfangled IG Valkyries for my Fast and Dirty army), but I haven't kept up with the rules. What do?

M.

since 3rd edition, IIRC, scouts are less skilled stat-wise but get better cover with an upgrade (especially good since so many people own City Fight terrain and I only live in a small town) and can get Sniper Rifles, Shotguns or an extra Close Combat Weapon for free

the main differences from 3rd ed and current rules is that Teplate weapons can not longer pick out induvidual targets, hand to hand fighting is simpler because you no longer have to choose who each induvial decides to attack and now you have to roll to wound people you can Instant Death (and most Codexes now have a supreme Special Character that is immune to Instant Death), thus giving them a chance to survive, however slim. Skimmers only get destroyed from being immobilised if they went at high speeds in thier previous turn but get a cover save if they took the risk (as well as some other speedy units)

every unit in the Imperial Guard have become more powerful or cost less points, often both. (though people have mixed reactions on the amped up Stormtroopers)

Necrons can no longer destroy any tank in a single shot



that's all I can think of right now. I hope that's what you were asking

Infantryman wrote:Thing is, I haven't played since the very end of 3rd edition. I've heard they removed the "Design your own chapter" thing using Chapter Abilities, which is very unfortunate.

They removed any and all army-building options like that. Now armies are built around Special Characters, transports, and how much you can game the casualty removal rules.

It's totally sweet.

And by 'totally sweet' I mean 'a complete waste of time'.

Lotet, thanks. How have the IG become more powerful? I don't even have the late 3rd/Early 4th edition codex with the doctrines anymore. Can we still build our own penal legions?

HBMC, what's this about being around Special Chars, transports and casualty removal rules? Have they made this into a Herohammer?

M.

Ummm.. I guess the main differences I will try to be to the point:

4 plus cover saves happen so much that if you think you have cover, you probably do.
Vehicles, unless you can see less than half the vehicle it has no cover save.
If you go very fast you get a cover save.

We now use true line of sight. Squad members are like hitpoints or counters for the squad.

ALL templates if they touch you, they have hit you.
The flame template, hits you: no cover save.
Other templates all use scatter dice minus your BS in inches.

Flame weapons are your friend for all your cover ignore needs.
Failing use of flamers, much dakka dakka is now preferred, more hits rather than powerful single shots. We have gone to quantity rather than quality now.

Read the universal special rules. Read them again. Look at Infiltrate, Move through cover, Scouts and Stealth since you like Scouts. Look up "Outflank".

Vehicles have a new chart for damage and bonuses to apply to the chart.

Melta weapons have become the vehicle popping weapon of choice.

EVIL SNEAKY update: You must have two power fists or thunder hammers before you can have a second attack.

The rest is pretty much just details.

Did I miss anything critical?

Infantryman wrote:HBMC, what's this about being around Special Chars, transports and casualty removal rules? Have they made this into a Herohammer?

The Space Marine Codex ties a lot of specialist formations to special characters. For example, taking Lysander turns Terminators into Troops. It's kind of annoying, but few people hate it as much as HBMC. The casualty removal rules are very "gamey" but most of 5th Edition runs more smoothly than 3rd Ed. ran. And it's not really Herohammer: special characters are good, but are generally balanced for their points. (This begins to change at 2,500 points.)

If you kept your miniatures, it's a great time to be a Guard player. Provided you owned enough Chimeras, or don't mind buying them.

Nah, didn't keep anything. I quit and sold everything for more Empire figs for WHF, which ended up becoming pants in the last edition change.

Given GW's prices (Fifty dollars for ONE tank!), I'm probably not going to touch Guard. What makes transports so fantastic now?

M.

Infantryman wrote:Lotet, thanks. How have the IG become more powerful? I don't even have the late 3rd/Early 4th edition codex with the doctrines anymore. Can we still build our own penal legions?

M.

Penal Legions are now a troop choice, they always (usually anyway) take Leadership tests at Ld8 for being Stubborn but Commissars now can easily be attached to normal squads for Ld9 Stubborn with re-rolling, plus they can combine the normal squads to make up to a huge 50 man unshakable wall that can hold back even the enemy elite, even multiple enemy elites. the commanders now do WAY more than just give your army a small Leadership boost, they can help squads take out monstrous creatures, vehicles, masses of weaker enemies, move faster and more! I quote

White Dwarf wrote:The enemies of the Imperium have never been so afraid of a Guardsman with a lasgun

there are more varients for the Leman Russ and what people find extremely important is that Chimeras can have up to 5 guys fire from inside, this is especially useful because you may take Veteran Squads (Ballistic Skill 4) as troops instead of just one for your entire army (sheesh, who thought one squad was a good idea?) and can take 3 Speacial Weapons each, such as plasma guns and Melta guns. Stormtroopers can now ignore Space Marine armour with thier new guns and you can now include more artillery and heavy tanks than ever, even your command squad can call in Basalisk rounds for only a 30 point upgrade. Orgryns are now Toughness 5 so only strngth 10 shots can instant death them, but who would shoot at the Orgryns when there are huge tanks about that are ready to drop templates on them? no one will really. Rough Riders now automatically come with thier explosive Hunting Lances and are much cheaper, they can decimate a squad of anything and ruin any enemies plan.

now the Special Heroes, oh man, Creed, Harker, Marbo ha! the power! you'll just have to read to find out.

Infantryman wrote: What makes transports so fantastic now?

At the most general level, the 5th Ed missions tend to emphasize mobility, and the vehicle damage table makes all vehicles more durable than 3rd Ed.

At a more specific level, the 5th Ed Codecies have seen significant reductions in the cost of transport vehicles. A Rhino is now 35 points. A Chimera is only 55 points. And vehicles in both the IG and SM codex now come with free searchlights and smoke launchers.

At an even more specific level, the Chimera now has five(!) fire ports, and can use them without the vehicle counting as "open topped." Plus you can issue orders from it. And it's still "aquatic."

I am guessing the old Mech Inf squads are gone (had a specific name, can't recall) now that all squads can take transports?

M.

that's right, but now you don't get victory points for the cost of the squads destroyed, now you get 1 point for each full enemy group taken out and trasports count as a separate point to thew squad they're attached to. but they are much cheaper, not only are they 55 points (instead of 70) but they come with 2 weapons of your choice for free, even Heavy Flamers

Damn, they come with all kinds of toys for free. Finally worth the 35USD. Too bad they'll probably be 50 before long :|

Scouts it might just be for me.

M.

Infantryman wrote:HBMC, what's this about being around Special Chars, transports and casualty removal rules? Have they made this into a Herohammer?

Mech armies are the most common. It's so dull. Dull like the Chaos Codex (but let's not talk about that one...).

5th Ed had what we call True Line of Sight. And it's 'true' in the same sense that a 'dog' is no different to an 'aircraft carrier'. You no longer need to be in range or LOS to be selected as a casualty as long as one member from your squad is. So you can have a conga-line of 30 Conscripts stretching out of 60" directly away from your opponent, and if he's in range of the first one, but is out of range and cannot even see the other 29, he can still kill them all. Not to mention that you now apply each wounding hit to a model in the squad before rolling saves, and then roll 'like' saves at the same time, so say 10 Marines (Sergeant, 2 Plasma Guns & 7 Bolters) take 11 wounds, you would make 1 save for the Sergeant, two for the 2 Plasma guys,a nd then 8 for the Bolters. No more 'bullet catchers' in squads. This was added to speed up the game. Another thing they added to speed up the game was scattering for each and every blast marker you fire. Now you roll for everything. They also redid the vehicle rules, returning us to 3rd Ed tanks that sit in Cover because Cover Saves are so good and if you move at all you can hardly fire a single gun - go go Main Battle Bunkers!!!

And no, it's not Herohammer in the sense that Special Characters can walk through enemy armies without any trouble (unless you're a Blood Angel player that is, who have their very own Daemon Prince now). Special Characters are now the only way to influence your army's structure. So rather than playing Deathwing, you have to bring a specific special character to the table before you can play Deathwing. Wanna play Salamanders with a bunch of cool special rules? Ok, bring a special character first that gives you those special rules. So no matter how big or how small, special characters are present in virtually every list you see. Guard's no different. The amount of lists with Marbo in them is shocking.

An all or mostly Scout Army for Marines works very well now too.

Vet Sgt is built into the base cost of the unit(Sgt +4 Scouts) They can have a Missile launcher or heavy bolter(with free hellfire rounds) at base unit(Tac marines must have a 10 man squad to get Special or heavy weapons). They have a Special Sgt Character for a cost. As said switch out boltgun for Combat blade, Sniper rifle, or shotgun for free.

Then you have Scout Bikers, they are mostly the same, but again the Sgt is built in. they can now have grenade launchers instead of T-L Bolters.

Finally the shiny new toy the Land Speeder Storm. It can transport a Half a Squad, is still a fast skimmer, and is Open Topped. Giving it a Heavy flamer is a terrific Idea due to it's speed and then it has a Psychology weapon that reduces the enemy leadership by 2 for the following assault phase.

Yeah, these casualty rules seem awful, as does the Main Battle Bunker problem. I think I might skip out on this one and stick with Fast and Dirty for shooty games. I work at Big Larry's in Leonardtown MD, and we sell all this stuff, and I've a clear LOS to the basic boxed set from where I sit for lunch; figured I'd ask before taking a 90 dollar plunge.

Thanks!

M.

Oh, and did we mention that only Troops Choices can score. Not infantry, just non-vehicle units that come from the Troops section of each Codex. Everything can contest, but only Troops can hold.

This is an artificial (and highly arbitrary) method to try and force people into bringing Troops, and leads to wonderfully silly situations where 1 Gretchin can hold an objective yet 10 Chaos Terminators cannot.

5th Edition was several solid steps forwards, then a red-eye flight several kilometres back.