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Hi all.
I was just wondering if folks on here would like seperate books for rules and background?
So that minature releases are acompanied by 'background source books ' full of inspiring artwork and bacground .Along with modeling and painting ideas.
Keeping all the 'creative hobby' aspects together .

And the rules could be worked on seperatley and updated as required.(Eg the Codex/Army book RULES, are updated without having to wait for new minature releases.)

Also the new rules editions could be released as Rules Book ,(JUST rules)and a SEPERATE Background Book (Just background and modelling and painting ideas.)

I belive selling the seperate aspects of the hobby seperatley , would appeal to more people than making potential customers choose between buying everything or not buying anything.

I think this would give GW customers more chioce and value for money , as they customers could buy just the parts that realy interst them.

What do you think folks?

TTFN

It's a great idea but won't be popular with GW since they will sell fewer of the big books at £40.

Next edition I don't think I'll bother with the main rulebook. It's too big, heavy and expensive. I'll just get a couple of copies of the mini rulebook in the starter set.

Voted yes but I'm not so sure.

I like having everything in one place, fluff and rules, but as time advances the content of codeices(?) is less inspiring and more 'paint/model the GW way'.

Gw can do whatever they want to but it does irk me some.

I ticked yes because I can see separating out the background fluff would produce books that were interesting/useful to Dark Heresy/Rogue Trader/Deathwatch players as well as the game. It would also mean that they weren't limited to the page count available in the Codex books either.

Having said that... I'm still more in favour of the ring-binder approach so you can choose to leave the background sections at home when out gaming, or release new bits of background to slot in later

For me it would be awesome if they split everything up. I would save probably half the price on all their books because I usually don't bother to read the fluff.

No, whenever I pick up a new army book, I enjoy flicking through the background section for ideas around which I can develop an army.

The thin 3rd Edition books were souless publications and once I had flicked through the rules, I had no desire to pick up and read them.

I like having a little bit of fluff in my rules. I think the D&D books have a good ratio of rules:fluff from what I can remember.

Though to be honest, a proper GW online wiki would be the best thing for fluff (ie "factual" fluff, such as who this guy is what what he does, such and such a war, what happened in x period of history, etc).

I think the balance is very good at the moment with a mini rule book with a great (and high value) starter set and a big shiny book.

Same with Codexes I like the fluff as much as the rules............

Hi Mr Morden.
I am sure some people like having the fluff and rules together.

But if GW asked £20 for WHFB 8th ed 'Rule Book',and £20 for WHFB 8th ed 'Background Book'.

They would sell far more books to more people , (established gamers just want new rules, collectors Just want inspiring background.)

Remember you could buy BOTH books , if you WANT to.

ATM people have the choice of buying everything together, or not at all.

Eg.
And I am sure those gamers who just want rules wont buy the £50 fluff packed version of the WHFB rule book.And the collectors who just want background , wont buy the £50 rules packed version of the WHFB background book.

And if you are like me,my background and hobby books STAY AT HOME.
I ONLY want to take my rule book and army lists to game with.(Which is standard practice for historical gaming ....)

This is more convienent for me , and most other people too!(Probably.)


TTFN
Lanrak.

Flashman wrote:No, whenever I pick up a new army book, I enjoy flicking through the background section for ideas around which I can develop an army.

The thin 3rd Edition books were souless publications and once I had flicked through the rules, I had no desire to pick up and read them.

If a new codex were published in two parts, (A) rules and (B) background, couldn't you buy both, or even just the B book if you wanted to?

I think rules and fluff should be more separated within the book.

On a large scale, we have special rules on the unit fluff pages and wargear in the army list - the army list should have the rules for the units.

On a small scale, the habit of mixing fluff, explanation, rule and example into a single lump is extremely annoying. They need some rigid formatting standards to clear this up.

There is a format, it is just a very bad one.

For example, if you want to configure a Tyranid Tervigon or use it in a game you have to look up pages 52, 62, 81, 83, 84, 87 and 96 to find out all of its rules.

There must be a better way.

Lanrak wrote:Hi Mr Morden.
I am sure some people like having the fluff and rules together.

But if GW asked £20 for WHFB 8th ed 'Rule Book',and £20 for WHFB 8th ed 'Background Book'.

They would sell far more books to more people , (established gamers just want new rules, collectors Just want inspiring background.)

TTFN
Lanrak.

Maybe maybe - as a horribly established gamer and collector I will get both the big book and a starter set - same as with 40K.
Friends on a budget tended to get the 40K boxed set and/or pick up the pocket sized book seperately to game with (I do the same)Now I could see the pocket book being availble for say £8-10 being a big seller as it works really well in terms of size and usefulness?Lots of people I know split the boxes up or sold of stuff that they did not want - eg marine players seeling off the orks, keeping the rules, and meaning that the whole box cost little.

The mix of fluff and rules also helps draw people to games - the only reason I bought Hordes and Warmachine (eyt to game depsite having loads of figures) is the great appearance/fluff drew me to it same with Infinity and..............etc etc

I said yes because it would hopefully put an end to the people who go, "The rules don't reflect the fluff!" Playability > Warm Fuzzy

Lanrak wrote:Hi Mr Morden.
I am sure some people like having the fluff and rules together.
But if GW asked £20 for WHFB 8th ed 'Rule Book',and £20 for WHFB 8th ed 'Background Book'.
They would sell far more books to more people , (established gamers just want new rules, collectors Just want inspiring background.)
Remember you could buy BOTH books , if you WANT to.
ATM people have the choice of buying everything together, or not at all.

Yeah with the prices of these books being so high I don't bother to buy the books at all anymore, I just go on Scribd or something, it probably would be that way if the prices were split up.

Lanrak wrote:And if you are like me,my background and hobby books STAY AT HOME.
I ONLY want to take my rule book and army lists to game with.(Which is standard practice for historical gaming ....)
This is more convienent for me , and most other people too!(Probably.)

Never really thought of this but it is a good point. It would be nice to carry a lighter load and you could organize a shelf of background books at home and keep your rules with your case.

Lanrak wrote:But if GW asked £20 for WHFB 8th ed 'Rule Book',and £20 for WHFB 8th ed 'Background Book'.

They would sell far more books to more people , (established gamers just want new rules, collectors Just want inspiring background.)

You publish one great big expensive book, which is the only source of rules (other than a MORE expensive starter set). Result - everyone who wants to play the game spends £30/40

If you split it up, then everyone who wants to play the game only has to buy the cheaper 'rules' book. Thus, you lose money.

I don't think more people will buy the rules if they're separate and cheaper, since if you want to play 40k you HAVE to buy the rules. So it makes sense to them to makes the one mandatory purchase big and expensive...?

No, I find it easy to find the rules in the current codices and as has already been said, I enjoy flicking through them.

I'm very against separating them. The "fluff" (bad choice of word) is actually a core element of GW's games. One of the best aspects of this hobby is the fun of balancing your unique idea about what your army should be with/against the background presented in the rules. People have different ideas about what that balance should be- some are rigorous "Fluff Nazis" who reject anything that doesn't fit their understanding of the background, and at the other end of the scale you have "anything-goes" types who are happy to put Eldar in their Chaos Army and say, "well, they're Eldar who fell to Chaos!"

That tension is what makes this game what it is. Taking the background out of the rulebooks effectively says the background is an optional component of the game- something that I'm sure GW's IP lawyers would find extremely threatening. And besides, surely if the background rules become separated fewer people would buy them simply becuase they can spend that money on more minis. Which means eventually GW would stop selling them entirely.

No. If a player wants to make a conscious decision not to read their own rulebook's background section and incorporate that in their army, that's their choice and I'm fine with that. But the background must be there in order to allow them to make that choice.

With WFB8 being 500+ pages, I'd like GW to bind the Rules and Background into separate hardcover volumes, but sell them as a bundled set in a slipcover. Then I can take just the 200 pages of large print edition rules & scenarios & missions with me to game, while leaving the 300+ pages of eye candy other stuff at home.

Really, it's the same as how GW sells multi-part metal mins and refuses to sell bitz.

Or how GW only makes the small rulebook available in the starter set.


Unfortunately, this isn't really an option on your poll.

Hi JohnHwang.
Well how about we assume those customers that buy BOTH the books at the same time , get a 'limited edition' cover slip to keep the books together at NO extra charge !

This assumes that both books are sold seperatley.(Which is an option in the pole. )

I was not linking this decision to 'what is easier for GW to do '.

But would like to guage opinion of on what the GW customers would prefer.


TTFN
Lanrak.

JOHIRA wrote:I'm very against separating them. The "fluff" (bad choice of word) is actually a core element of GW's games. One of the best aspects of this hobby is the fun of balancing your unique idea about what your army should be with/against the background presented in the rules. People have different ideas about what that balance should be- some are rigorous "Fluff Nazis" who reject anything that doesn't fit their understanding of the background, and at the other end of the scale you have "anything-goes" types who are happy to put Eldar in their Chaos Army and say, "well, they're Eldar who fell to Chaos!"

That tension is what makes this game what it is. Taking the background out of the rulebooks effectively says the background is an optional component of the game- something that I'm sure GW's IP lawyers would find extremely threatening. And besides, surely if the background rules become separated fewer people would buy them simply becuase they can spend that money on more minis. Which means eventually GW would stop selling them entirely.

No. If a player wants to make a conscious decision not to read their own rulebook's background section and incorporate that in their army, that's their choice and I'm fine with that. But the background must be there in order to allow them to make that choice.

Yup, I agree completely. The background is integral, not an 'optional extra'. Even the people who say they 'don't read the fluff' are affected in their understanding of the army by the images, painted models and artwork.

You can't force people to read the fluff. Why force them to buy it?

Maybe GW should attach each model kit to a Black Library novel.

Hi all.
Well how things have changed over time....
Back in the late 1980s and early 1990s, GW made it VERY clear they just offered up some examples to inspire people to make up thier own backgrounds and back stories for thier forces/collections of minatures.

Now some people appear to be saying that without these examples from GW towers, thier game systems becomes invalid?

WOW!I was not expecting that rersponce.(Apologies if you didnt mean this.)

Or is it GW rely on the background to influence army composition, instead of actual restrictions in the Codex/Army books ?

As this method lets the customers argue over what is the 'right way to play', rather than restrict customer purchaces directly?
And this causes the fluffy -competative divide in GW core games.

Some put more emphasis on the unwritten fluff restrictions , and other just want to use the most cost effective options.
This only happens when ALL options are not fully playtested before they are published, BTW.

I suppose I am used to having rules and background material in seperate books.
If I ONLY had the rules and fluff together I may not see the advantages keeping them seperate bring.

TTFN

I'd really just like them to make codices that aren't such a colossal ballsack to read during games.

Put the rules for the guns and all in ONE area of the book, instead of scattered across various pages and obscure locations.

Lanrak wrote:Hi JohnHwang.
Well how about we assume those customers that buy BOTH the books at the same time , get a 'limited edition' cover slip to keep the books together at NO extra charge

This assumes that both books are sold seperatley.(Which is an option in the pole. )

I was not linking this decision to 'what is easier for GW to do '.

That doesn't work, because now GW has these half-empty slipcovers.

If you want the rules separately, GW will still sell it to you as part of the Starter box bundle.

My suggestion is actually *harder* for GW to do.