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Just wondering if anybody plays Tomb Kings and had found any viable strategies for 8th. I'm not interested in playing the "Khalida bowmen spam" list as it strikes me as a mindless list to make and a mindless list to play. Unfortunately the consensus online seems to be that Khalida is the only Tomb Kings list that can reliably win anymore. So I wanted to know if anyone else has had success with other Tomb Kings designs. How do Tomb Kings win in 8th without just spamming bowmen and Screaming Skulls?

Tip: Rumors have it that new TK book should be around in the fall. That said, wait for the army-erratas which should come with the offical 8th ed. release so you know better how your magic works for example.

Regarding actual army composition, as with everybody else, large units of infantry with shooting,magic & monster support seem to be the name of the game. I'd imagine couple of large blocks of skellie archers, 1 large TG bunker, couple of scorpions and at least 1 catapult (with the assorted characters around of course), should form a good base for 8th ed.

As I kinda think about it.

I think 3 blocks of 25 tomb guard are going to become standard in just about every Tomb Kings build. Along with a prince in each unit to try to bolster the number of quality attacks.

I also think that Heavy Cav are going to become the core of choice for most armies, relying on their high speed, and rank breaking from the flanks, while chariot units will act as a sort of 1 turn anvil to allow the heavy cav to get into position.

I see 2 units of skullapults becoming a standard in every game because they are super cheap and brutally efficient now. Many players are going to sacrifice a character to kill their opponents BSB in order to make the best use of the skullapult.

While Ushabti are nice, I don't see units of 6 getting used very often because they are so damn expensive. There's a lot of speculation that ogres are to 8th as heavy cav were to 7th. But Heavy cav blow the hell out of ogres.. So what we're going to see is Infantry>Heavy Cav > Ogres > Infantry... etc etc. Sort of a rock-paper-scissors thing going on.

Tossing 370 points at one unit is ludicris though IMO.

A lot of support units for the Tomb Kings, though, have become even more worthless from what I'm reading...

Scorpions are the same,

But carrion have gotten worse IMO, along with light cav.. Although light cav line skewing still ought to exist to some extent, the fact that after a combat you can re-form makes life stupid.

All in All, I think the Kings are going to really be a tough army to use well until their new book comes out.

Pray to god they don't shaft us with the magic.

Ragnar4 wrote:As I kinda think about it.

I think 3 blocks of 25 tomb guard are going to become standard in just about every Tomb Kings build. Along with a prince in each unit to try to bolster the number of quality attacks.

I also think that Heavy Cav are going to become the core of choice for most armies, relying on their high speed, and rank breaking from the flanks, while chariot units will act as a sort of 1 turn anvil to allow the heavy cav to get into position.

I see 2 units of skullapults becoming a standard in every game because they are super cheap and brutally efficient now. Many players are going to sacrifice a character to kill their opponents BSB in order to make the best use of the skullapult.

While Ushabti are nice, I don't see units of 6 getting used very often because they are so damn expensive. There's a lot of speculation that ogres are to 8th as heavy cav were to 7th. But Heavy cav blow the hell out of ogres.. So what we're going to see is Infantry>Heavy Cav > Ogres > Infantry... etc etc. Sort of a rock-paper-scissors thing going on.

Tossing 370 points at one unit is ludicris though IMO.

A lot of support units for the Tomb Kings, though, have become even more worthless from what I'm reading...

Scorpions are the same,

But carrion have gotten worse IMO, along with light cav.. Although light cav line skewing still ought to exist to some extent, the fact that after a combat you can re-form makes life stupid.

All in All, I think the Kings are going to really be a tough army to use well until their new book comes out.

Pray to god they don't shaft us with the magic.

units of 25 tomb guard are near the price for 6 ushabti. Once you factor in full command and a magic banner it probably brings them to about the same. You suggested taking 3 units of them. I'm not following your logic here.

You're tossing 370 points at 18 wounds at t4 with a 5+ save

You're tossing 325 points at 25 wounds with a 5+ save.

The ushabti are clearly a much more salient threat, and more likely to be dealt with, they are harder to re-raise once killed, and even though they pwn face in combat if they ever whiff they are dead.

Tomb guard on the other hand, will much more likely have a ward save from most attacks, have a higher survivability, have less "quality attacks" for sure but, are easier to raise, and much more of an able unit to handle your business.

Comparing them (through my own argument) is like comparing apples to oranges, though. Because like I said, in this edition Infantry>Heavy Cav>ogres>Infantry.

The reason I'm so reluctant to use them? My opponent will have heavy cav. I've never played against an army that doesn't have heavy cav. So that 1 unit of 6 ushabti either has to be played really, really well, so my opponent doesn't charge them. OR I have to bring a second unit because I figure I'm going to lose one of them to my opponents obligatory unit of HC.

My thoughts are this,

Archers can volley fire... So they become insane in large blocks my List in progress runs about 160 archers or I will come close. (arguable point)

As for casting I still think that until errata hits we cant truly play because our casting is different we do not cast but invoke magics. Why would we roll power dice we wont use. All our bound items are incantations as well so they don't work for PD anyway.

That being said my LiP also uses a casket and a few priests to volely fire twice a round and utilize my catapults.


That is what I have gathered so far from watching people use the new rules in games.

Sigh, now we can only take 3 Tomb Scorpions, curse you 8th edition, I can not play my tomb kings anymore after they have been smacked with the nerf bat.

/sarcasm off

I think that if they were not mandatory before a tomb king is mandatory now just to get those chariots as core. It will be interesting to see how tomb king magic will work in the new errata. I suspect that the characters will be able to add some bonus to their rolls on incantations.

Being able to take a casket, and two SSCs will be nice.

I can't help but think speculation is moot. The army depends on magic so much, so changes there will change everything. After all, currently Priests don't have magic levels. So they don't get that bonus to cast and dispels, I believe.

I do think fielding skeletons on foot is a sucker's bet now. Nothing more than expensive goblins. Archers aren't any better, you are still paying 48 points to do one wound before saves to T3 targets per round.

The make or break for tomb kings is going to be how their incantations work after errata.

If its stays the same any caster with a level 4 wizard will be able to dispell the one dice incantations on a single dice unless the incantation is rolled at a 6, and then it will just need a 2+.

However my friend who plays TK isnt holding his breath, since supposedly they will be getting a new book in september.

I thought Dispel still had the limit of needing a natural three or better for the total result.

Furthermore, the big issue for TK's ATM is that - if interpreted right - there's two stages to their spell casting. First, they roll the bound power level. Then they have to see if they can cast it. That's... not particularly good, considering it means stuff like risking 7+ to cast bound spells that failure to meet = casting done for that model.

Well, the question is closed now.

Tk magic always succeeds, but is incredibly vulnerable to dispel attempts. You aren't going to get much off against a level 4 wizard until they run out of dice, or you are casting from a High Priest.

@The Grog.

The 3+ minimum to dispell rule gives Tomb Kings magic rolled on a single d6 nearly a guaranteed 33% to succeed, AND causes serious problems with backloading in the game.

We can assume that the average number of dice your opponent will hold will be 5-6. Which is actually decent.

BUT

Even by todays standards, your typical tomb kings army would have 2 princes, 1 king and a liche priest.

that's 1d6, 1d6, 1d6, 1d6, 1d6 and 2d6. Here's the problem.

I roll 1 d6 and get a 1. You throw your 1d6 right back at it. Only an idiot would roll 2 dice against the one right? but if you roll a 1 or a 2.. you automatically fail. Same goes for every possible number I can roll with 1d6. so for those first 5d6 you're praying to god you don't roll a 1 or a 2.

Go toss 5d6 about 100 times and measure how many times you roll a 1 or a 2.

Then, after it's all said and done, I get 2d6.

The reason that Tomb Kings magic is so darn tough to deal with, is that he picks one game breaker maneuver and casts, and re-casts, and re-casts at that one thing trying to get it done. I'd even go so far as to suggest, that it's MORE resilient now than it ever was before. Which is odd.

The magic phase is nice, but you have to be able to wtfpwn your opponent with whatever it is you're going to do. That's the problem, the new rules don't really support Kings being able to get in and win hardcore.

It is what it is. But the Kings are fine in the magic phase.. it's the combat phase that is the tough nut. But I'm not giving up yet.

With the casket, skullapult and mass archers, you can launch a ton of crap down field. Add in some good ole bound items, and you can just overload the magic phase.

fireball ring is going to be standard in all armies IMHO. Dont know about staff of ravening any more though. used to be standard all the time in top tier armies because it was so great for dealing with skrimishers, ethereal, and light cav. But that's because those units were small and elite. This new trend to bigger units may carry over to those 3 and render str2 hits useless.

If you read the PDF, priests count as level 1 wizards for bonuses, and high priests count as level 3's. They simply aren't allowed to channel dice, oh and the less than 3 thing doesn't apply to Khemri. The biggest issue they have is that none of their bound items technically work. . .

This means that this is your standard magic phase at 2K. At anything higher you always take 2 high liche priests.
This ends up being 14 to 20 power dice every turn, try and dispel it I dare you.

3 Liche Priests
2d6+1
2d6+1
2d6+1

Tomb Prince
1d6

High Liche Priest with Staff of Mastery, and Golden Ankhra. (You might take two naked High Liche Priests instead)
3d6+4
3d6+4

citadel97501 wrote:If you read the PDF, priests count as level 1 wizards for bonuses, and high priests count as level 3's. They simply aren't allowed to channel dice, oh and the less than 3 thing doesn't apply to Khemri. The biggest issue they have is that none of their bound items technically work. . .

This means that this is your standard magic phase at 2K. At anything higher you always take 2 high liche priests.
This ends up being 14 to 20 power dice every turn, try and dispel it I dare you.

3 Liche Priests
2d6+1
2d6+1
2d6+1

Tomb Prince
1d6

High Liche Priest with Staff of Mastery, and Golden Ankhra. (You might take two naked High Liche Priests instead)
3d6+4
3d6+4

No, you don't add your casting level for casting.

The casting result for the opponent to dispel is
determined by rolling 2D6 in the case of a Priest’s Incantation,
and 3D6 in the case of a High Priest. Note that these are not
power dice, and are not affected by things that affect power
dice. Also, these totals cannot be modified (either up or down),
except for the Staff of Mastery (see page 39).”

Ragnar4 wrote:@The Grog.

The 3+ minimum to dispell rule gives Tomb Kings magic rolled on a single d6 nearly a guaranteed 33% to succeed, AND causes serious problems with backloading in the game.

We can assume that the average number of dice your opponent will hold will be 5-6. Which is actually decent.

BUT

Even by todays standards, your typical tomb kings army would have 2 princes, 1 king and a liche priest.

that's 1d6, 1d6, 1d6, 1d6, 1d6 and 2d6. Here's the problem.

I roll 1 d6 and get a 1. You throw your 1d6 right back at it. Only an idiot would roll 2 dice against the one right? but if you roll a 1 or a 2.. you automatically fail. Same goes for every possible number I can roll with 1d6. so for those first 5d6 you're praying to god you don't roll a 1 or a 2.

Go toss 5d6 about 100 times and measure how many times you roll a 1 or a 2.

Then, after it's all said and done, I get 2d6.

The reason that Tomb Kings magic is so darn tough to deal with, is that he picks one game breaker maneuver and casts, and re-casts, and re-casts at that one thing trying to get it done. I'd even go so far as to suggest, that it's MORE resilient now than it ever was before. Which is odd.

The magic phase is nice, but you have to be able to wtfpwn your opponent with whatever it is you're going to do. That's the problem, the new rules don't really support Kings being able to get in and win hardcore.

It is what it is. But the Kings are fine in the magic phase.. it's the combat phase that is the tough nut. But I'm not giving up yet.

What game breaking maneuver? You don't have comets, you don't have the purple sun, you don't have those awesome Light buffs. You can make a catapult shoot twice, and that's about the most awesomely amazing thing possible. Can you even break ranks with chariots in the side now?

And are you sure dispels fail on a 1-2? I thought that was casting only. Even then, at a 33% failure rate you are still going to get 3 spells canceled on average and only casting 5 times.

citadel97501 wrote:If you read the PDF, priests count as level 1 wizards for bonuses, and high priests count as level 3's. They simply aren't allowed to channel dice, oh and the less than 3 thing doesn't apply to Khemri. The biggest issue they have is that none of their bound items technically work. . .

This means that this is your standard magic phase at 2K. At anything higher you always take 2 high liche priests.
This ends up being 14 to 20 power dice every turn, try and dispel it I dare you.

You don't get your level bonus. "Casting value for your opponent to dispel is determined by rolling 2d6 ..." no mention of adding your caster level. "Also, these totals cannot be modified up or down except by the Staff of Mastery."

High Priests are going to be hell to stop, yes. And they are nigh mandatory for their power. But I'm not sure you'll get much else off. TK will wipe most RiP spells unless you take every bound spell in the book though.

I wonder what is going to be our best unit options? I'm leaning towards Tomb Guard and Chariots, as I don't see skeletons of any kind accomplishing much.

The Grog wrote:

What game breaking maneuver? You don't have comets, you don't have the purple sun, you don't have those awesome Light buffs. You can make a catapult shoot twice, and that's about the most awesomely amazing thing possible. Can you even break ranks with chariots in the side now?

And are you sure dispels fail on a 1-2? I thought that was casting only. Even then, at a 33% failure rate you are still going to get 3 spells canceled on average and only casting 5 times.

--Game Breaking Maneuvre, last edition used to be a flank charge, or a combo charge that would blow up a battle line. This edition. I have no clue. I haven't played enough. The steadfast rule is pissing in my wheaties all day long.

--Page 35, Dispel Value, Paragraph 3 ... Just as when casting a spell, a total natural dice score of 1 or 2 is always considered to be a failure, despite any modifiers..


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also.. The bonus from the priests only counts for dispelling these days.

Speaking about the Chariots, I wonder if they need to be 5 wide to provide a rank? It seems kind of irritating, but the wording on how they rank up says as cavalry in the pdf, that does seem to say 5 wide. :(

Ragnar4 wrote:
--Page 35, Dispel Value, Paragraph 3 ... Just as when casting a spell, a total natural dice score of 1 or 2 is always considered to be a failure, despite any modifiers..

Page 2 third paragraph of the Tomb King PDF, says Miscasts, Irresistable force and rolling under a 3 don't apply to Nehekaran Invocations, (IE tomb king magic.)

citadel97501 wrote:Speaking about the Chariots, I wonder if they need to be 5 wide to provide a rank? It seems kind of irritating, but the wording on how they rank up says as cavalry in the pdf, that does seem to say 5 wide. :(

Ragnar4 wrote:
--Page 35, Dispel Value, Paragraph 3 ... Just as when casting a spell, a total natural dice score of 1 or 2 is always considered to be a failure, despite any modifiers..

Page 2 third paragraph of the Tomb King PDF, says Miscasts, Irresistable force and rolling under a 3 don't apply to Nehekaran Invocations, (IE tomb king magic.)

They don't apply to casting Tomb Kings magic - they would still apply to dispelling it.

Ragnar4 wrote:
--Game Breaking Maneuvre, last edition used to be a flank charge, or a combo charge that would blow up a battle line. This edition. I have no clue. I haven't played enough. The steadfast rule is pissing in my wheaties all day long.

--Page 35, Dispel Value, Paragraph 3 ... Just as when casting a spell, a total natural dice score of 1 or 2 is always considered to be a failure, despite any modifiers..


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also.. The bonus from the priests only counts for dispelling these days.

Hmm, that does improve your success rate.

And I'm blanking on the best purpose for TK magic too. Flank charge by chariots/ushabti? Not good enough unless it's a massive unit of them. Combo charge? Steadfast, since Undead are likely to be always outnumbered, except against stuff that will outfight them easily.

Doubling catapult fire is a good standby, but I don't think it's going to win games.

Also.. if you fail to dis-spell that wizard can't attempt any more.. so the moment that lvl 4 fails to get the job done.. you go to your lvl 2.

Ragnar4 wrote:Also.. if you fail to dis-spell that wizard can't attempt any more.. so the moment that lvl 4 fails to get the job done.. you go to your lvl 2.

yes, but your opponent chooses after you roll your casting value, right? So unless you roll high, he can just venture a lvl 2 against it.

Good point Grog. The meta game will be scary.

Let's say that I roll a 6 on my 1d6 from my first prince.

You now have a few options. Roll 1d6 based on the armies + dice. Roll 1d6 based on your +2 and fail on all rolls of 1, 2, and 3 50% of the time, and be unable to use him ever again. OR use my lvl 4, and fail 33% of the time.. and never be able to use him again, or throw 2d6 at it.

Hop back. Let's say I roll a 1.
Now your lvl 2 fails 33% of the time, so does your lvl 4, so does your armies generic dispell.

So the best roll, versus the worst roll, on average only drops your likely hood of succuessfully dispelling the item by about 16% of the time.

This is huge.

Now if only we could come up with some amazingly over powered maneuvers. lol.

Just a few random thoughts...

1. The cloak is no longer the way to keep a heiro alive due to the nerfing of flight. OTOH...for the low-low price of giving up all mobility...the casket, in addition to what it does for itself, it gives its priest operator two extra wounds, a few defensive attacks with tomb blade great weapons (that's a deterent to assassination!) and T10. Keep a unit nearby to intercept an attack by anything more robust than the usual warmachine-and-mage hunters, and you have an ironclad heiro... The only other option you really have is burying him in a unit with the collar.

2. My understanding of our bound spells is that they're bound spells first, and incantations second...I think they do, in fact, use PD. The question is how many to throw...since boxcars destroys the item. My thought is three per...low chance of two 6s, but still likely to draw a TON of DD. Kanopi and Botul come to mind as nearly indispensible...if, indeed, they do use PD (PDF doesn't say otherwise, and I don't get my BRB till tomorrow), the fact that they're not competing against incantations for those dice makes them almost game-breaking in terms of diluting enemy DD.

3. I definitely think TG are going to rule in 8th, with 2-3 rows of tomb blades striking in the magic phase. I think that's the first use for incantations. 30 bowmen take up 10" of frontage now while pumping out 50 shots a turn...that's the second use for incantations. Last use? Rescuing failed charges...if you whif...try again, this time starting 4" closer!

4. Spamming naked priests...awesome!

I'd say the casket is more vulnerable to shooting now. Before you at least had the random chance to hit the casket itself, now you eat 6s to wound all the time.

That's 240 points to deal 4 wounds per volley to T3, before armor saves. Not all that attractive to me, since if you put 240 points of Empire Swordsmen on the other end of the deployment zone I think you'll lose.

On the other hand, in a bizarre twist of fate, TK infantry shooting might be the best in the game right now. Penalties from cover are going to be a lot more common and no more bonuses to shoot large targets puts a damper on most people's bowfire. I'd never magic up bowfire when I could have a catapult shot.

The naked priests are awesome. No more slot opportunity costs means you'll see a lot more low-equipment characters and odd choices show up.

The Grog wrote:I'd say the casket is more vulnerable to shooting now. Before you at least had the random chance to hit the casket itself, now you eat 6s to wound all the time.

That's 240 points to deal 4 wounds per volley to T3, before armor saves. Not all that attractive to me, since if you put 240 points of Empire Swordsmen on the other end of the deployment zone I think you'll lose.

On the other hand, in a bizarre twist of fate, TK infantry shooting might be the best in the game right now. Penalties from cover are going to be a lot more common and no more bonuses to shoot large targets puts a damper on most people's bowfire. I'd never magic up bowfire when I could have a catapult shot.

The naked priests are awesome. No more slot opportunity costs means you'll see a lot more low-equipment characters and odd choices show up.

Aye, but with T10, it's going to take 6s...and doesn't it have the undead special rule? You have to kill the casket, the two guards, and the priest to prevent me from healing it all back. In the meantime, that's a lot of shooting not directed at the rest of my army...

Of course I'd usually take a shot with the catapult over a unit of bowmen...depending on the shape of the target. How many models can you fit under the template? Depends on the model size...and whether they're skirmishers. Against fast cavalry, skirmishers, and some things on large bases...the 8 hits from 25 bowshots are a better deal than a scattering template. And if the catapult's extra shot gets off on a relatively early attempt? Or if you're running skullapultless, as I would at 1k points (I put the list in the army list forum)

Something I didn't mention in response to someone questioning the value of incantations in 8th...you can never go wrong healing up your losses!

When other armies get spells that buff their ENTIRE army.. healing d3 wounds seems a bit pitiful

Actually, its regen D6, or 2D6 pick highest on TG and skellies... so its not that bad. The thing that makes it awesome is that its not based off of the winds of magic and will usually go off just due to sheer number of incantations.

TG are d6, only skeletons are highest of 2d6 on skeleton warriors only.

I think Life regenerates dead troops better now.