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Hey folks!

I was having an interesting discussion with a friend of mine about prize support at events....I've evolved to where I don't need anything, my armies are complete, and I play for the glory of winning; the stuff I win goes into my needy gamer charity box.

My stance: Winners should be rewarded, mediocrity should not. If I'm in a poker game of 9 people and the pot is going to get split 3 ways....I'm going to be upset. 33% of people should not be winners. Maybe 10%. Likewise in 40k - having an RTT with 10 people showing up and giving out three prizes seems absurd to me.

His stance: Spread the wealth around, the more people that win stuff, the happier everyone will be.

We've been around and around....and I'm curious which mindset is more prevalent for tournaments? Nothing wrong with a field of 30 people getting Best Overall, Best general, Best sportsmanship, best painted.....but tacking a second place in each of those categories seems to start being overdone. I might just be an oddity though, so I'd like to see what others think - I'm probing around being a TO and obviously want to put on events people want to play in.

Like anything else, there are going to be different veiwpoints from different people, and there just isn't 'one right answer'. Same as with rules sets, scenery, game length, etc: The To should advertise what they are doing, and then people can decide to come or not.

It's sometimes going to very difficult for a TO to do prizes based on how many people show up, especially if doing trophies or other things that need to be done ahead of time. You have to say ahead of time how you are doing prizes, you have no way of knowing how many people will show up. Saying 1st -3rd get prizes, then deciding to just give it all to one person will not go over well. The opposite is true as well, and giving out prizes to a larger pool when you advertised "big prize for 1st" isn't going to make people happy. And finally, if you say you're giving something out, give it. I've heard for years about an event that advertised 'thousands in prizes' and didn't give them out. Some people refuse to play there years later. I've lost money on a couple of tournaments, where I advertised XXX dollars in prizes, and then didn't get the people we thought we would do things like weather and an 'ardboyz tournament getting dumped on the same day. It happens.
But I said I'd give out prizes, so we did. Better than dissappointing people, and breaking your word.

In the end, it's like anything else. People have different opinions. You get to set the rules for the tournaments you run, and have to let others do the same.

I see where you're coming from Dash, though personally I think theres nothing wrong with having plenty of prizes, provided that the prizes for first and second etc are clearly different, using your poker example, if first place took 80% of the pot, second took 15% and 3rd took 5%, then all 3 players feel as though they have won something, but it is quite clear that first place is the "winner"

Obviously prizing scheme will be up to you as the TO, but even if any prizes other than first place are quite clearly consolation, it will encourage people to enter for a shot at getting *something* back as a reward, while I don't see anyone boycotting a tournie because people other than them might win something (although not having played any tournies myself, I guess there could be people like that)

TL;DR:
More prizes will generally equate to more participants, which is rarely a bad thing.

I find the idea of prizes beyond trophies for winning or for painting skill distasteful.

I enjoy the challenge of taking rubbish to tournaments are seeing how badly / well it does. Why should I subsidise the player with GhazWagons in doing so? If you want to give stuff away, raffle it to players who have brought painted armies and give the player who placed last a space wolf codex.

The idea of prizes for winning contests goes back quite a ways, and is a bit integrated into much of the tournament mentality, especially in the states where we reward athletes with multimillion dollar a year salaries for tossing various shaped balls well.

That said, I've been trying to do more and more with nice trophies. They take time, and aren't as easy as tossing someone a battleforce, but are better appreciated. I'll post pictures of what we gave out this weekend later tonite when I can find my camera.)

I personally think trophies are a waste. Sorry, but I would get a lot more use out of a model then I would a trophy that sits and collects dust. I haven't kept any of the trophies I got in school (for various things) and I wouldn't keep a 40k one either. Most of it comes from the fact I do not like clutter or things people use to decorate with. I have a rather spartan home; I like clean lines and things on my mantle or whatever would just suffocate me.


Bottom line, I want something I can use or sell to someone else so I can buy something I can use. That is what prize support should be about, imo.

dang double post

I enjoy prizes, but I think most of us that are seriously into this game see it as a hobby you spend cash on, not profit from. Trophies are fun, as they're unique and you can't just buy them. If you get to have too many you can always toss out the older ones or the least attractive ones.

Yeah I'm with Mannahnin. I personally don't care about the prize support when I attend an event. I figure at a GT that overall might get around $150 in product and the rest of the top spots get something a little lower. But I don't actually give it any thought when I'm planning to attend an event.

The way it's spread around doesn't matter. The more people that have a good time the more people will attend next year due to awesome word of mouth so it'll be a bigger and better event the next year. It's really win/win in my opinion.

I didn't actually consider trophies in my post, I agree and think they would be a good way of attracting people who play for the love of the game, rather than a more WAAC crowd (not to say all people who play for prizes are WAAC)

Trophies also have a good chance on cutting down entry fees, making the tourney more accessible.

I like prizes and trophies and have won tons of both. I usually don't show up for a tournament unless they have one or the other that I want and know I can win. That being said.

Spreading the wealth around is fine. "Mediocre players" as some might call them finance the tournament. If they had no hope of ever winning anything eventually they wouldn't go and tournaments would be boiled down to just a few people and all the games would become who contests of die rolling since everyone would probably be using the same list.

Don't care about prize support. Fun and challenging games on quality tables with nice looking armies are what I'm there for.

Same - i dont really want to win models, etc, I'd rather buy them than "win" them - however trophies, which you cannot just buy, mean more. A lot more - especially if theyre something unique.

Gift certificates are always nice, though- I might not use it for GW models, but 40k isn't the only game I play, either.

I know they've been maligned in other threads, but I thought the slugga/choppa/shoota trophies from 'ard Boyz were pretty cool [full disclosure- Orks are my primary army, so personal bias may be in play]. Something unique for the game room/FLGS display case is an attractive addition to the normal prize pool.

One of the game stores I frequent (Crazy Beanz and Beadz in Easley, SC - Hi!) has a store trophy displayed with the winners' names from each of the tourneys they run. It promotes an additional level of friendly competition between players that place/win regularly there, and is a pretty cost-effective way of giving players recognition for winning.

I guess I'm confused, Dash. You say you don't need or want any prizes, but you still think they should be concentrated at the top? Wouldn't spreading the wealth eliminate the need to figure out what to do with excess winnings?

As for myself, I don't care what the prize support is, either way. I, like most people, get really mad when the prize support isnt' what was promised, but I play to get in three games, have fun, and try to win. That said, winning tournaments helps bring in a lot of hobby supplies that I would have trouble justifying buying for retail. things like yet more paints, white dwarf issues, codices, expansions like Planetstrike and Battle Missions, etc. I got the new fantasy rule book with tournament winnings, and I'm growing an old Tau force mainly with prizes. If you don't win big GTs or 'Ard Boyz semis, it'll take six months of winning local events to build a decent sized army around me. I'm curious to see if I can do it.

I tend to agree with Torgoch, about the idea that players who are having fun shouldn't necessarily be subsidizing those who are out to just crush people.

But, entry fees serve a valuable purpose. In my experience, ('ard boyz exempted) free tournaments have worse attendance than tournaments with entry fees. And, a tournament that offers a pre-registration fee does the best of all.

Maybe that's because of how vested people feel in it? If it's free, I can decide not to go. If it's free, I can just drop out if not doing well. But if I pay in advance, I'm committed.

So the fees have a use, and generate a pool that's available for prizes. Trophies are a nice compromise, but eventually become clutter. I've got a whole shelf of plaques and trophies in my basements.

Gift cards work well because they also help support the store that's running the event. Trophies help out the trophy shop... But then we're back to the subsidizing thing.

I think that having prizes for different activities is the best compromise of all. If best sportsman and best painted prizes are offered, as well as best general, and maybe 'overall' (apparently a contentious term to some), then you have an environment in which anyone feels they have a chance to win a prize, rather than just those playing the newest codexes. Giving prizes for 1st,2nd,3rd doesn't work out quite the same way.

Polonius wrote:I guess I'm confused, Dash. You say you don't need or want any prizes, but you still think they should be concentrated at the top? Wouldn't spreading the wealth eliminate the need to figure out what to do with excess winnings?

We're not talking about what I win here, but about how I should view prizes as a TO - which I said in my first post.

I like poker being winner-take-all, and would treat 40k the same way if I could - the boss battles I host *are* winner take all, but they have to be since its last man standing in a free-for-all. The point of this thread is to find out if more people prefer to reward a few or reward many, and to a lesser extent, trophies or GW stuff.

This is a pretty good thread!

Honestly, I like the Score approach to giving out prizes. You know your store more than anyone else, so you know what sized crowd to expect. But generally for every 10 players, Score gave out 2 prizes.

Also important is how unique or rare the tournament is. If you hold a tourney every weekend, then a good rule of thumb is to give a prize worth double what the winner paid.

IF you make concessions for second and third, give second place a prize worth their entrance fee and half that again.

Give third place his entrance fee back in store credit.

If you hold a tourney every week, players wont be there to compete for that trophy, they just want to play and gain a prize most likely. I think how many places you prize out depends on tournament size.

If the tournament is a local Ard' Boyz, or qualifier, or a special event you run much less often, then consider a trophy-esque prize.

Your estimated prized pool isfor the top 3 spots. You can spend a very small amount of money on a silk-screened T-Shirt or Hat for the Tournament winner, which advertises your store, the event, and that players general badassery. THEN toss him a battlebox or store credit prize in addition to the T-Shirt.

That way, he gets a war trophy AND something practical.

As someone who is not the best at anything, but still likes to go to events, I like the prizes to be spread around, especially door prizes. If I know I'm paying $15 and have 0 chance to win anything, its rather depressing and makes me less likely to go. You gotta gear the tourny for everyone, not just the "best" players.
And GW stuff is my preferance, trophies are cool, but dont save me any money.

What Whalemusic360 said. Poker has a huge appeal. It's easy to say only the winners deserve anything, and still actually have a tournament, because the pool of potential players is huge. Furthermore, you play a lot more hands. How many people would enter a $100 poker tournament, winner take all, if there were three hands played and the person with the most cash at the end of those three hands was given all the entry fees?

It's not a relevant comparison in niche gaming. Out of any pool of wargamers, less than half are going to want to enter tournaments at all, and of those, less than half are going to good enough players to win the battle point contest.

No one sane is going to keep paying money to enter tournaments that essentially consist of just handing their money to other people.

The key to ensuring that your tournament scene survives is to draw more players, not fewer. And the key to doing that is to make sure that more people have a reason to attend. Sportsmanship and Appearance prizes go a long way towards this. Now the really friendly guy who brings fluffy lists has something to look forwards to. He might not win it, but he's not out of the running as soon as he hands over his cash, right?

Hi

At our event, the Warmaster's Challenge (www.warmasterschallenge.com), we do both. There are big prizes for winners, including a large forgeworld piece for the weekend winner, and plenty of door prizes for each participant, ranging from GW products, to GW oriented Fantasy Flgiht Board Games, to entry to other local tournaments. Everyone gets a number of raffle tickets to start, with the option to purchase more.

This gives us the best of both worlds - the winner's get swag, and everyone gets a chance at something.

Cheers,
Nate

torgoch wrote:If you want to give stuff away, raffle it to players who have brought painted armies and give the player who placed last a space wolf codex.

LOL! Well put.


For me...

- No trophies, I'm not in 3rd grade anymore.
- I like gift cards for the local store best, that way you can get what you want, if you don't need anything, you can give them as gifts to needy gamers in your local group.
- I think winners should be rewarded to the largest extent as... well.... they WON didn't they? However, I like the idea of spreading things around a bit as it encourages the non-alpha gamers (which are most of us) to keep their interest in the hobby & keep trying to improve. Our FLGS does an excellent job with this. Perhaps Norbu the Destroyer will comment if he's reading this thread...

i'm not saying my way is right or wrong but just for example or ideas for others. My events normally turn out between 16 and 24 players, at $10 each. The amount of prize support for each of the catagories depends on turn out.

The prize support looks like this
Best Overall
Best Painted
Best Sport

and 3 doorprizes that I hand out at the begining of each round.

As you said, your in it for the "glory" not the prize. So whats the differance? 2nd and 3rd place are still 2nd and 3rd place with or without prizes.

If the store wishes to hand the goods out, then I'm all for it. It's their money, they can spend it as they like. An event that only drew 10 people with prize support may have only drawn 4 or 5 without.

If it makes someone feel good to win something at a small event, then good for them. Thats what this GAME is about. Feeling good, and having fun.

Dashofpepper wrote:

Polonius wrote:I guess I'm confused, Dash. You say you don't need or want any prizes, but you still think they should be concentrated at the top? Wouldn't spreading the wealth eliminate the need to figure out what to do with excess winnings?

We're not talking about what I win here, but about how I should view prizes as a TO - which I said in my first post.

I like poker being winner-take-all, and would treat 40k the same way if I could - the boss battles I host *are* winner take all, but they have to be since its last man standing in a free-for-all. The point of this thread is to find out if more people prefer to reward a few or reward many, and to a lesser extent, trophies or GW stuff.

I missed that you said you were starting being a TO. If that's the case, than getting opinions here is good, but you should really poll the people that will actually be attending your event.

If there is a pretty wide range of talents, than people might like more door prizes or painting stuff. If everybody is pretty bunched up, they might like winner take all. If there are few top guys, and then the rest, 2nd and 3rd place prizes are more attainable to more people. If there are two amazing painters in the group, painting awards will have little motivation.

If you're trying to attract top traveling players, the key isn't prizes, but attendance and challenge. You can get the first locally with prizes, but the latter you can only get by having legit local talent.

As for distribution, I think that having more prizes is going to be better in the long run for you than only a few. Few top players need or care too much about the prizes, while a lot of mid level players really like having something to shoot for. In other words, winner take all doesn't motivate anybody to attend, and might de-motivate people that are worried about being completely outclassed, while more prize support can motivate people to attend, while not stopping anybody.

For prize support when I run a tournament, we take all the entry fees, usually $10 per person, double it, and use that amount in store credit. Some of it tends to get siphoned off to finance more store terrain, and then the rest goes out in prizes. Of course the more people, the better the prizes, but an average event will tend to have $80/$60/$40 for First/Second/Third, and then addition $20 door prizes which are drawn randomly for people who didn't place. Typically half the people who show up get something.

Aduro wrote:For prize support when I run a tournament, we take all the entry fees, usually $10 per person, double it, and use that amount in store credit. Some of it tends to get siphoned off to finance more store terrain, and then the rest goes out in prizes. Of course the more people, the better the prizes, but an average event will tend to have $80/$60/$40 for First/Second/Third, and then addition $20 door prizes which are drawn randomly for people who didn't place. Typically half the people who show up get something.

Are you a store owner? I don't have any kind of FLGS affiliation, so I'm not sure where the doubling of the entry fees comes from!

I'm not employed by the store, but I'm the one they have run the 40k stuff. The entry fees being doubled then turned out and given back as store credit is the store's standard policy for prize support. They do it with pretty much any event or tournament they run that does not have official prize support from the game's makers.

No, but Aduro works very closely with the store owners.

When I run, I give money to 1st, Sport, and Paint. !st getting the larger split.

I have found that giving support for other than winning brigns in people that care more than just winning. There is a guy who refuses to play unless there is a paint score or prize. He knows he has no chance of winning overall, but he can paint like crazy.

just be sure you play at places with reputable TOs

I've heard of a few places selling the prize support the received and screwing over the winners by giving them less...