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rvd1ofakind wrote: "Use nurglings to gain turn 1 board control. They are small, they can be placed wherever you want, they are cheap, and they are hard to shift in numbers. This allows turn 2 areas to drop in with bloodletters or pink horrors. Also flamers (as mentioned above) are fast and can give support to said nurglings during first turn to help keep the control of your opponent makes a hole in your control line. "
The problem is that nurglings do not create areas. The fact that you have them on the table means nothing unless they are physically blocking the path for the enemy (which most fast units can FLY over)
yeah the 1" area around models in 40k makes models taking space matter very little. In AoS for instance you can't get within 3" which makes model matter. SO nurglings unless you literally bring just about enough models to cover all the table space they don't realy stop anything.
The only way i can see nurglings really being a good solution for keeping an area clear is if you bring a bunch of nurglings and use them to do turn one charges on lots of your opponent stuff so they can't really move out as many units. If your opponent flys that doesn't matter at all.
Boss Salvage wrote: I'm guessing some of the nurgling thinking is a pre-FAQ holdover, where 9" drop zone buffering was a top tip. Somewhat less so now.
- Salvage
You can use them to clog up movement of your opponent; such as between two buildings, or what have you. Of course, this doesn't help against fliers and stuff.... but they have their uses lol.
So because armies have some units that can fly suddenly that means nurglings will never work as a way to keep a drop zone clear for turn 2 drop in on an entire 4x6 table? Come on, obviously there isn't a single "tactic" that will fix all issues, but nurglings as a drop zone protection will work against quite a few armies out there. And if the enemy does focus on killing those nurglings then they are not dealing with the slaanesh units running into then at full speed.
They do NOT keep a dropzone clear for you. They keep the deepstriking opponent from deepstriking there. They do not have a 9'' aura in which YOU can deepstrike despite and opposing unit standing next to nurglings. There's no point in killing them except for easy-ish kill points.
They were must take with turn 1 deepstrike. But now... meh.
So just for the hilarity of it I made a new list for my Slaanesh based off all this no DSing turn 1 shenanigans. It is not meant to be hyper-competitive but I think it will be fun and at least will give some people a run for their money. Even though my group is getting used to the speed of my army somewhat, i haven't brought a ton of Seekers at any point. Normally 1 squad max. This list changes my focus from being on Daemonettes to being on Seekers and a KOS that will roll up with them... hopefully on turn 1. LOL I'll probably get shot to bits if I go second but I suppose with my speed I can try to deploy defensively and still be able to roll out quickly if I go first. ANYWAY... here it is. (my psychic powers for my KOS is based on my group, I know it isn't the best combo).
People are saying that Slaanesh has a role now as she* specialises in fast attack. She has more different types of fast unit (which helps with the new Rule of Three), but Screamers are still faster, more durable per point and better at attacking things than anything Slaanesh has (and can be supported by fast heralds), so they should also be considered for this role...
Mark.
*Well I prefer to think of Slaanesh as a she, and it was cannon at one point, just like Khorne being honourable)
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/20 09:30:23
Has anybody tried stacking Ld debuffs alongside Treason of Tzeentch? I don’t think I’d build a list around it, but if I were fielding Tzeentch Daemonkin I’d keep it in mind. Probably best on a TSons/NLords list with Nurgle Raptors and Ahriman?
Cheeslord wrote: People are saying that Slaanesh has a role now as she* specialises in fast attack. She has more different types of fast unit (which helps with the new Rule of Three), but Screamers are still faster, more durable per point and better at attacking things than anything Slaanesh has (and can be supported by fast heralds), so they should also be considered for this role...
Mark.
*Well I prefer to think of Slaanesh as a she, and it was cannon at one point, just like Khorne being honourable)
Screamers are faster in their exact 16" movement and have a slightly better melee profile. Seekers for Slaanesh can get -4 AP potential bonus. However... a unit of maxed 9 Screamers is 279 points. 12 Seekers, base, is 228. You can add more seekers as well, if you so choose up to 20 I believe. They can be a more reliable blob. They can also take a Musician, a banner and can advance and charge if a character follows them, get a +1 str with that as well and they can reroll their charges if they fail.
It isn't just that one unit is fast as well, it's the entire army. Seekers will scream up the board at 14+D6+1" and then have a 2D6+1" charge. Screamers will only go the 16". They have the same amount of wounds but less models more than likely. However our Daemonette blobs move 7"+D6+1" and also then get a 2D6+1" charge. Screaming right up the board after them. The warlord trait celerity of Slaanesh didn't seem so great before but now, units like the KOS or a DP with wings is moving 15" base, not including the advance roll + ability to charge.
It's a weight of force (squishy force, I'll give you that) moving up super quick, not just a single unit. Max threat range is 34" with the Seekers. I also tend to not put all my eggs in one basket. I know it's tempting to make one giant blob but I try to spread it out so if a unit is shot off the board it doesn't hurt as much. If you can manage to keep them alive, I also enjoy bringing a fiend or two. They move just as fast as the Seekers and can lock a unit in combat with them permanently unless the unit can fly. They are super squishy and overcosted though.
Also.. side note. You can still call Slaanesh a she, Slaanesh is both a male and female. best of both worlds! Haha. Or does he/she/it just appear androgynous now?
lindsay40k wrote: Has anybody tried stacking Ld debuffs alongside Treason of Tzeentch? I don’t think I’d build a list around it, but if I were fielding Tzeentch Daemonkin I’d keep it in mind. Probably best on a TSons/NLords list with Nurgle Raptors and Ahriman?
I have not tried that... but I did try Zarak with Phantasmagoria + cacophonic choir. Leadership debuff stuff is surprisingly effective, though Zarak has a built in -2 already. I think I got 8 mortal wounds into a blob of pinks or something. I don't see why the treason of tzeentch thing wouldn't work out.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/04/20 16:28:00
Boss Salvage wrote: I'm guessing some of the nurgling thinking is a pre-FAQ holdover, where 9" drop zone buffering was a top tip. Somewhat less so now.
- Salvage
Nah you you don't need em as much for zone buffer. Though i do think they could make a decent first turn charging unit. They have decent damage, and durability, and they can get jammed into melee turn 1. A big unit could even pull 1 or 2 models back to grab that sloppity bile piper buff to advance and charge. Really letting them run deep into enemy lines. With a bell GUO and the nurglings chained back to him, he could also heal the units (but i still think healing that way is dumb and not good enough).
I'm not super sure where my head is at with daemons at the moment. I think potentially the idea is just screw killing power, and go for max staying power. BRing horrors that you pump up iwht +1 invuln and support with ignore morale and spliting. Then big nurglings units that threaten to tie up units like dark reapers, or get surrounds on thier wave serpents. 1 unit might not last a dark reaper storm, but dark reapers would actualy be pretty hard pressed to take out several ~7 man nurglings unit.
Then i guess along with the horde you can jam in 3 daemon princes. As the horde would keep them rather safe. Out side of that the LoC seem decent enough as well as he's just durable with nice spells.
I think this style horde army would follow along with alot of what nick nonvadie has been doing with some of his list. Just straight up durability for durability sake and just winning on objectives and not being tablable.
Screamers are faster in their exact 16" movement and have a slightly better melee profile. Seekers for Slaanesh can get -4 AP potential bonus. However... a unit of maxed 9 Screamers is 279 points. 12 Seekers, base, is 228. You can add more seekers as well, if you so choose up to 20 I believe. They can be a more reliable blob. They can also take a Musician, a banner and can advance and charge if a character follows them, get a +1 str with that as well and they can reroll their charges if they fail.
It isn't just that one unit is fast as well, it's the entire army. Seekers will scream up the board at 14+D6+1" and then have a 2D6+1" charge. Screamers will only go the 16". They have the same amount of wounds but less models more than likely. However our Daemonette blobs move 7"+D6+1" and also then get a 2D6+1" charge. Screaming right up the board after them. The warlord trait celerity of Slaanesh didn't seem so great before but now, units like the KOS or a DP with wings is moving 15" base, not including the advance roll + ability to charge.
It's a weight of force (squishy force, I'll give you that) moving up super quick, not just a single unit. Max threat range is 34" with the Seekers. I also tend to not put all my eggs in one basket. I know it's tempting to make one giant blob but I try to spread it out so if a unit is shot off the board it doesn't hurt as much. If you can manage to keep them alive, I also enjoy bringing a fiend or two. They move just as fast as the Seekers and can lock a unit in combat with them permanently unless the unit can fly. They are super squishy and overcosted though.
Also.. side note. You can still call Slaanesh a she, Slaanesh is both a male and female. best of both worlds! Haha. Or does he/she/it just appear androgynous now?
lindsay40k wrote: Has anybody tried stacking Ld debuffs alongside Treason of Tzeentch? I don’t think I’d build a list around it, but if I were fielding Tzeentch Daemonkin I’d keep it in mind. Probably best on a TSons/NLords list with Nurgle Raptors and Ahriman?
I have not tried that... but I did try Zarak with Phantasmagoria + cacophonic choir. Leadership debuff stuff is surprisingly effective, though Zarak has a built in -2 already. I think I got 8 mortal wounds into a blob of pinks or something. I don't see why the treason of tzeentch thing wouldn't work out.
ON the being fast thing. I think nurgles do it better than seekers or screamers. They are pretty much parented to make it all the way up the table and get there attacks in. If you get a character up there with them they can increase the damage of the nurgles, and with virulence blessing they could threaten vehicles or big monsters doing 3 damage a piece on 5's, and getting reroll 1's from daemon prince as well.
Then aside from that if you look at the damage chart rvd1ofakind posted a while back nurglings even take a las cannon shot better than seekers and screamers do. SO between seekers and screamers... my money is on the nurgling.
Out side of the rest of that i do think the deep strike thing does make summoning better. While i think it doesn't let you summon out side of your deploym,ent zone turn 1. Turn 2 all your characters are close enough to summon flamers and horrors directly into range.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/04/20 17:58:33
So I've been looking through my BRB and FAQs, and I cannot find anything to suggest that summoning is reinforcements. Is it in Chapter Approved or am I just no correctly interpreting the placement of a comma somewhere? I'm very hopeful that this turn1 summon idea will actually work, so that I can take more than 1 greater daemon in my mono-khorne army.
:edit: Nevermind found it. In the actual summmoning rules in the daemons codex. Derp.
:edit 2: So having read the Daemonic Ritual rule again... I think summoning got hit super hard by this beta FAQ. Not only can we not summon outside our deployment zone t1, but we might still need to account for the PL of things we summon. "This unit is treated as reinforcements for your army and can be placed anywhere on the battlefield.." Double whammy making an already lackluster mechanic worse somehow. Is there a bad idea tier past Hot Garbage? Has summoning finally hit 5e>7e Pyrovore tier bad???
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/04/20 18:58:53
StarHunter25 wrote: So I've been looking through my BRB and FAQs, and I cannot find anything to suggest that summoning is reinforcements. Is it in Chapter Approved or am I just no correctly interpreting the placement of a comma somewhere? I'm very hopeful that this turn1 summon idea will actually work, so that I can take more than 1 greater daemon in my mono-khorne army.
You can't move and then summon, nor can you move after being summoned, I think.
StarHunter25 wrote: So I've been looking through my BRB and FAQs, and I cannot find anything to suggest that summoning is reinforcements. Is it in Chapter Approved or am I just no correctly interpreting the placement of a comma somewhere? I'm very hopeful that this turn1 summon idea will actually work, so that I can take more than 1 greater daemon in my mono-khorne army.
:edit: Nevermind found it. In the actual summmoning rules in the daemons codex. Derp.
:edit 2: So having read the Daemonic Ritual rule again... I think summoning got hit super hard by this beta FAQ. Not only can we not summon outside our deployment zone t1, but we might still need to account for the PL of things we summon. "This unit is treated as reinforcements for your army and can be placed anywhere on the battlefield.." Double whammy making an already lackluster mechanic worse somehow. Is there a bad idea tier past Hot Garbage? Has summoning finally hit 5e>7e Pyrovore tier bad???
it actually doesn't require any more PL stuff then it already had. The unit isn't set up at the start and as such it doesn't count as reinforcements regarding PL until it's on the table as long as you roll it.
But summoning is still (and always was) almost useless. The only it's use I've ever been able to find is to summon something that is not in your codex so that you do not break mono-detachement and get all bonuses. Or circumvent detachment restrictions (summon 4-thHQ in a Battalion for example). Outside of that it's a crap.
Now that I'm actually planning on using the mechanic (to circumvent detachment restrictions), there are a frustrating number of limitations on it, aren't there. Costing both the movement of the summoner and the summoned is feeling particularly redundant right now
- Salvage
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/20 20:14:41
Being relatively new to daemons (started in february). I might be derping pretty hard here, but what is the point of all of the +to hit bonuses bloodletters get? Units of 20+ gets +1, near skulltaker gets +1. Yeah I get that Skulltaker also effects cannons, thrones, heralds and juggs, but he can't take a throne or jugg, so he just walks between a few big blobs and does nothing, or deepstrikes in to give crushers +1 to hit maybe. I feel like they were supposed to get something like DttFE but it got cut at the last minute
Maybe if skulltaker got a +1 to hit always he'd be a bit better to buff skullcannons, but as it stands, he just looks like a more expensive bloodmaster but worse. Ohyeah, does his +1 just effect the rider of the crusher/bloodletters on the cannon, or all of its attacks because the whole model has the Bloodletter keyword?
ON the being fast thing. I think nurgles do it better than seekers or screamers. They are pretty much parented to make it all the way up the table and get there attacks in. If you get a character up there with them they can increase the damage of the nurgles, and with virulence blessing they could threaten vehicles or big monsters doing 3 damage a piece on 5's, and getting reroll 1's from daemon prince as well.
Then aside from that if you look at the damage chart rvd1ofakind posted a while back nurglings even take a las cannon shot better than seekers and screamers do. SO between seekers and screamers... my money is on the nurgling.
Out side of the rest of that i do think the deep strike thing does make summoning better. While i think it doesn't let you summon out side of your deploym,ent zone turn 1. Turn 2 all your characters are close enough to summon flamers and horrors directly into range.
Well Nurgle will be more resilient, that is their thing, but speed wise it isn't comparable. Just like when Khorne finally get there they will hit harder than Nurgle or Slaanesh on paper, but they have an in the middle kind of speed. Plaguebearers only move 5" and can only charge after advancing with a Gnarlmaw in the list as far as I am aware? Even Plaguedrones are slower, moving only 10". It's a slow, resilient charge. They don't have the turn 1 27" threat range of Daemonettes (that 27" is assuming the best rolls ever). Let alone the 34" max threat range of Seekers.
StarHunter25 wrote: Being relatively new to daemons (started in february). I might be derping pretty hard here, but what is the point of all of the +to hit bonuses bloodletters get? Units of 20+ gets +1, near skulltaker gets +1. Yeah I get that Skulltaker also effects cannons, thrones, heralds and juggs, but he can't take a throne or jugg, so he just walks between a few big blobs and does nothing, or deepstrikes in to give crushers +1 to hit maybe. I feel like they were supposed to get something like DttFE but it got cut at the last minute
Maybe if skulltaker got a +1 to hit always he'd be a bit better to buff skullcannons, but as it stands, he just looks like a more expensive bloodmaster but worse. Ohyeah, does his +1 just effect the rider of the crusher/bloodletters on the cannon, or all of its attacks because the whole model has the Bloodletter keyword?
Any model with BLOODLETTER gets the bonus on all its attacks. If your bonuses to hit add up to better than 2+, then 1’s do still fail - but if you incur a -1 to hit pentalty, it’ll be offset. Also, +2 to hit rolls means hitting a Culexus Assassin on a 4+.
A bit niche, but if you’re facing a debuff army or an Execution Force and have Skulltaker and a horde of letters, you’ll have a trick up your sleeve.
Skulltaker himself also obliterates characters. That d3+3 damage sword is no joke. For under a buck, he's a pretty good deal for a duelist. The +1 to hit is mostly icing, and can benefit smaller units of letters.
ON the being fast thing. I think nurgles do it better than seekers or screamers. They are pretty much parented to make it all the way up the table and get there attacks in. If you get a character up there with them they can increase the damage of the nurgles, and with virulence blessing they could threaten vehicles or big monsters doing 3 damage a piece on 5's, and getting reroll 1's from daemon prince as well.
Then aside from that if you look at the damage chart rvd1ofakind posted a while back nurglings even take a las cannon shot better than seekers and screamers do. SO between seekers and screamers... my money is on the nurgling.
Out side of the rest of that i do think the deep strike thing does make summoning better. While i think it doesn't let you summon out side of your deploym,ent zone turn 1. Turn 2 all your characters are close enough to summon flamers and horrors directly into range.
Well Nurgle will be more resilient, that is their thing, but speed wise it isn't comparable. Just like when Khorne finally get there they will hit harder than Nurgle or Slaanesh on paper, but they have an in the middle kind of speed. Plaguebearers only move 5" and can only charge after advancing with a Gnarlmaw in the list as far as I am aware? Even Plaguedrones are slower, moving only 10". It's a slow, resilient charge. They don't have the turn 1 27" threat range of Daemonettes (that 27" is assuming the best rolls ever). Let alone the 34" max threat range of Seekers.
Ytour missing nurgling's "speed" it is comparible because nurglings start 9" away from your enemy's deployment zone. Even on some of the closest deployment maps that's a 14" move or on the normal distance ones like a 20" move up the table. Stringing back just a hair to catch a high five from a sloppy bile piper also lets you advance and charge adding an average of 3.5" to your move, and with a charge that's an average 30.5" threat range. with a max threat range of 38" inches.
It's not obviously nessarily speed, but more the fact that the unit can span half way accross the board (by only holding 2 or 3 models back to tag a sloppity bile piper for advance and charge. Then from there they start more than half way accross the table. SO not faster per say, but they get a head start. Thier damage is quite lower, but you can get some good milage with virulence blessing.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/21 06:43:52
Please re-read nurgle character names and rules for the tree
Anyway, Nurgle is really fast. +2'' move from scrivener and charge from the tree makes plaguebearers exactly as fast as daemonettes. Except they are so much more durable than daemonettes that it's not even funny.
Turn 2 charges are a common sight: (7+4.5)x2 +8 = 31'' threat range from turn 2 with plaguebearers. With plague drones, it's 37''. Not bad eh?
Really easy:
2-3 blobs of 30 bearers icon instrument
Poxherald, bilepiper, scrivener
Plague drones
Epidemius
Tree(s)
DG ranged fire power to get buffs fast
Don’t forget Oblits. 700pts gets you a CSM detachment with nine of them and a Jump Pack character to either give them re-roll 1’s, or cast Warptime and Prescience on a Sprayer drone and load of Blight-haulers.
870pts makes it a Daemon Prince to throw down re-rolls before Epidemius warms up, and also cast Prescience.
Last game, I had a Familiar swap out Prescience for Warptime so said DP could get a cheeky charge and contribute to a Maelstrom goal.
Access to Warptime is also really helpful. I wouldn’t rule out taking a Jump Sorcered *and* CSMDP in some Epidemius lists. Moving twice, 2+BS multi-Meltas, and disabling Storm Shields and the like is just too good.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/21 11:37:51
The trouble I’m having is fitting it all into three detachments... I want a poxbringer, Epidemius, and scrivener, plus either a fortification network (boo), or probably slimux for a tree. Plus some Death Guard firepower and/or obliterators... I could do it comfortably with four, but to meet the three limit I have to miss out on something.
Vomikron Noxis wrote: The trouble I’m having is fitting it all into three detachments... I want a poxbringer, Epidemius, and scrivener, plus either a fortification network (boo), or probably slimux for a tree. Plus some Death Guard firepower and/or obliterators... I could do it comfortably with four, but to meet the three limit I have to miss out on something.
If your taking Nurgle and running Epidemus, I would recommend Obliterators; mainly because they can benefit from everything the tree gives them (0+ save woo!), they hit really hard, and have a lot of tactical options. Plus, CSM has a LOT of options to play with that can help you secure kills for epidemus buffs. Death Guard, while I adore them and run them personally, only have two units: PBC's and Bloat Drones (or Defilers...). Both of which benefit from Epidemus, but the only benefit is the fall back and shoot and thats only for PBC's.
StarHunter25 wrote: Being relatively new to daemons (started in february). I might be derping pretty hard here, but what is the point of all of the +to hit bonuses bloodletters get? Units of 20+ gets +1, near skulltaker gets +1. Yeah I get that Skulltaker also effects cannons, thrones, heralds and juggs, but he can't take a throne or jugg, so he just walks between a few big blobs and does nothing, or deepstrikes in to give crushers +1 to hit maybe. I feel like they were supposed to get something like DttFE but it got cut at the last minute
Maybe if skulltaker got a +1 to hit always he'd be a bit better to buff skullcannons, but as it stands, he just looks like a more expensive bloodmaster but worse. Ohyeah, does his +1 just effect the rider of the crusher/bloodletters on the cannon, or all of its attacks because the whole model has the Bloodletter keyword?
Any model with BLOODLETTER gets the bonus on all its attacks. If your bonuses to hit add up to better than 2+, then 1’s do still fail - but if you incur a -1 to hit pentalty, it’ll be offset. Also, +2 to hit rolls means hitting a Culexus Assassin on a 4+.
A bit niche, but if you’re facing a debuff army or an Execution Force and have Skulltaker and a horde of letters, you’ll have a trick up your sleeve.
So your right that skulltaker does indeed grant his bonus to a skullcannon, but his bonus is +1 to hit in the fight phase only, so it's not going to matter much. If your skullcannon is in close combat your already in trouble.
It does suck that deamons are mostly a melee army that has been hit hard vs the beta update, and our shooting is very limited to begin with, but I just don't see a way forward without using chaos marines as allies in a competitive environment. Not and stick to a single God.
best of both worlds! Haha. Or does he/she/it just appear androgynous now?
