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Dear all, I'm interested in peoples perceptions of the hobby and how its changed and developed? What have been the biggest changes in your opinion? Just thinking back to the early 90's how limited information, tips and advice was quite thin on the ground and most things came from GW stores or White Dwarf!

The biggest change has been the Internet. I now get advice and inspiration from gamers all over the world! I buy miniatures from companies all over the world to make my own customs and conversions. My top changes would be:-

1. The Internet and all it has brought.
2. The expansion of 3rd party miniature makers (e.g. MAXMINI et all)
3. The expansion of paints and knowledge of painting (Vajello etc etc)
4. The introduction of rare earth magnets!

Just think back to Rogue Trader Days, the hobby has come along way. What are your top innovations for the 40K hobby?

The internet. Without it, none of the three other points would've taken off.
I still remember the old days (1988-ish) when White Dwarf was the sole channel of information regarding the hobby. (There was talks about other miniature wargaming magazines, I sure never saw one.)
The only way to learn new painting techniques was to attend cons or reading WD. And you never ever heard of new stuff until it was at the store or announced in White Dwarf.

I wish I could add/say something more than just "The Internet". But really, there isn't much that trumps it.

Print on demand is one smaller innovation though, now you can get rules out there without investing huge amounts of money on printing.

I am a bit confused by your question OP. Are you reffering to the biggest things that have changed how you view the hobby or the biggest changes to the hobby?

Changes on how I view the hobby?
1) Internet hands down. I spend the majority of my working day reading 40k forums in all aspects. This gives me insights on all sorts of tactics and lists that people are running. What is succesful on paper and on the board. Makes me a better painter, etc.
2) Prevelance of hobby stores in the area, especially battle bunkers. I live in Seattle, there is a 64% chance it is in fact raining outside right now on any given day. It is one thing to be pinned in the house and a completely differant animal moving all of the room mates to a battle bunker to play and converse with complete strangers has changed everything.
3) Working at Microsoft and being on a 40k email distribution Alias and having people email us wanting our information on the 40k IP for a fan project on the Microsoft Surface.

Biggest changes to the hobby?
1) Ammount of models fielded in a 2k game.
2) Ammount of Vehicles.
3) Each release we seem to (IMO) get a better ruleset while still retaining all of the elements that people seem to like.

Both really! Don't you stop and think how much more spartan and less accessible the Hobby was back in the Rogue Trader Years? And now it is brilliant with tons of sources for advice on gaming, modelling, painting.
This hobby is expanding and diversifying so quickly!

On the Rules retaining what we like, what happened to the DEATHWATCH replaced with STERNGUARD?

BTW I love Seattle, went there with the wife on Honeymoon before we toured through Canada, Pike Place Brewery, the Jimi Hendrix statue. Oh and it didn't rain, it bloody snowed! December 2008 and the whole place came to a stop, Awesome city!

mwnciboo wrote:Both really! Don't you stop and think how much more spartan and less accessible the Hobby was back in the Rogue Trader Years? And now it is brilliant with tons of sources for advice on gaming, modelling, painting.
This hobby is expanding and diversifying so quickly!

On the Rules retaining what we like, what happened to the DEATHWATCH replaced with STERNGUARD?

BTW I love Seattle, went there with the wife on Honeymoon before we toured through Canada, Pike Place Brewery, the Jimi Hendrix statue. Oh and it didn't rain, it bloody snowed! December 2008 and the whole place came to a stop, Awesome city!

I actually did not start playing until 2nd edition and I was really young at that. I wouldnt say the game truely clicked for me until 4th edition, than again I am only 26 as well.

Well Deathwatch being replaced with sterngaurd wasnt really a rule change it was more of retcon kind of thing I suppose. I am hoping they have big plans in the next DH codex to include Deathwatch as well...who knows.

I remember that winter well. Seattle is truely best in our short summer and when it snows...nothing like summer in the northwest. In fact it's probably our best kept secret.

The net is mother, the net is father

It all seemed more mysterious, "back in the day".

I think that apart from the interweb, the biggest change is GW's shift to focusing on "the younger gamer".

I went to my first Games Day back in '90, aged 12, and again in '91. At both, I really stood out as being super super young. Now, I think it would be fairly normal.

Of course, the youth focus is primarily a GW thing, not a hobby thing, but it has shifted the perception from GW being "nerdy" to "kiddy", IMO.

As another oldie I would The internet again is a big change. It allowed other miniture companys emerge with less financial outlay than would have previously (and therfore be ablue to under cut GWs prices) This has lead GW to up their game and produce better models and more stable and playable game rules.

This can be seen in the change between 2nd Ed and 3rd Ed moving from the unstable special character, psyker fest and moving it towards a more infantry based game.

The only criticism is the removal of the movement characteristic. But I am a fuddy duddy

Polystyrene models, unknown 30 years ago except for Tamiya kits.

The Internet.

Death of paper magazines and high street shops.

Conversely the rude health of the hobby -- there are more and bigger shows, more manufacturers and publishers than ever.

Re-orientation of GW from being a general gaming hobby company to being a company for marketing SMs to teenagers.

I think "things were better" back then.

Isn't that how it's supposed to go?

I personally think the whole Warhammer and 40k spheres are evolving away from GW control. A good example is old EPIC 40000 which has had a new set of rule created by gamers for gamers, GW simply cannot cut off a game system and say "No, it never existed"(like the Squats!). The game has taken on a life and evolution all of its own, driven by gamers and gamers creating mini companies and converting miniatures across genres and gaming systems. I often see MAXMINI stuff on 40K miniatures and other miniatures from Europe, the USA etc. The influence from across in the US has been massive, the market is bigger the amount of diverse miniatures over there is amazing. Websites such as this, the Lexicanium, Bolter and chainsword all taking the power from GW. War Gaming is a hell of alot more democratic these days, and gamers are more informed than ever before!

The game is far more concrete now, and as such, is easier to integrate into a competitive atmosphere. If you think the rules now are unclear, you should read the rules for Rogue Trader or 2nd Edition.

The armies are a lot more balanced and defined. I used to run a Marines list with Eldar allies, and an Assassin in Terminator Armor with Polymorphine, a bike, and a vortex grenade. Seriously.

The game is more streamlined. It doesn't take 3 hours to play 1,500 points anymore if both players move at a decent pace.



All in all, it's better. Less silly, but overall more tactical and fun IMO.

NuggzTheNinja wrote:The game is far more concrete now, and as such, is easier to integrate into a competitive atmosphere. If you think the rules now are unclear, you should read the rules for Rogue Trader or 2nd Edition.

The armies are a lot more balanced and defined. I used to run a Marines list with Eldar allies, and an Assassin in Terminator Armor with Polymorphine, a bike, and a vortex grenade. Seriously.

The game is more streamlined. It doesn't take 3 hours to play 1,500 points anymore if both players move at a decent pace.

I had seriously over-looked this and it's so true.

Some of the humour has gone out of the GW side of things. Thay are almost compleatly the stright man now. There are some hang overs the most feasom Ork warlord Ghazghkull Mag Uruk Thraka named after the most fearsom Pirme minsiter of Britan Margret Thatcher as well as Jokaero, ork madboyz , the Rainbow Warriors and many more.
However this has lead to a lot more humor from the gamer and hobbyist.

A. games that took 2 days to play out now take 4 hours.
B. 1 Hero with mad wargear can't take out half my army before you manage to bring him down.
C. More vehicles.
D. Can insta kill things. In the old days a direct hit from a orbital thermonuclear tipped torpedo would still not kill that hero. It was stupid.
E. only D6 no more tons of different dice.
F. Lascannons were the ultimate word in antitank.
G. Psychic powers had a huge effect on smaller games, if you drew some awsome ones, especially from the inquisition pack with dark millenium the odds were stacked in your favour. Now psychic powers are sensible.

nevertellmetheodds wrote:A. games that took 2 days to play out now take 4 hours.
B. 1 Hero with mad wargear can't take out half my army before you manage to bring him down.
C. More vehicles.
D. Can insta kill things. In the old days a direct hit from a orbital thermonuclear tipped torpedo would still not kill that hero. It was stupid.
E. only D6 no more tons of different dice.
F. Lascannons were the ultimate word in antitank.
G. Psychic powers had a huge effect on smaller games, if you drew some awsome ones, especially from the inquisition pack with dark millenium the odds were stacked in your favour. Now psychic powers are sensible.

Just to rebut some of those points. I've been gaming for 27 years. "plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose" (thank you Jean-Baptiste Alphonse Karr).
A. Games that took 2 days still take 2 days.
The only difference is that it's the rules interaction arguments that pad it out, not the gameplay.
D. Orbital strikes and deathstrikes still can't guarantee a kill on those characters.
E. I miss the rest of the dice. I won't play D&D, so where else are they going to get used? Nvm, Stargrunt still uses them.
F. Autocannons were viable anti-tank weapons (and could take armour piercing ammo to guarantee that) - Battlecannon spam didn't exist back then either.
G. Only if you are eldar. If you are a sparkly marine or hairy buttcrack sniffing marine, they are godly.

In adition:
GWs plastic kit range has an increased volume of models, and some are even quite nice. The prices have gone up substantially though. $30 for 30 SM in 1987 to $65 for 10 SM in 2010 (local prices). A 650% increase. Sure, more options in the box, but that's it. Scale creep is most evident.
Resin casting has advance in leaps and bounds in the last 30 years. Shame FW never noticed.
Males have dedicated cleaning products - shame many male gamers haven't noticed.
There are just as many other miniature producers out there now as then - it's just easier to find them, and harder to hide the "IP infringements". Just go to a Salute convention in the UK if you had any doubts.

Males have dedicated cleaning products - shame many male gamers haven't noticed.

Meoow! Put those claws away Chrome dog! On this point i think some gamers need to be taken under someones wing and told the facts of life (e.g Shower once a day, wear clean clothes, get a haircut now and again, don't talk about your hobby 24/7, develop some social skills etc). Alot of the people who War Game are exceptionally bright and intelligent individuals they just got a little bit left behind by society, although some gamers like to live in the Shadows?

Anyway the Rules have changed for the better, the prices have definitely changed for the worse. Forge World is great, except to buy anything you need to sell your spare Kidney and promise them your 1st born. GW has shares and is now shareholder focused so despite all the talk to contrary, they are Profit focused not focused on the good of the game.

Things i'm hoping for? Another EPIC 40,000 edition release, buying a whole SM Chapter for liike a £100 in epic scale would be awesome! Bring back Epic 40,000 with new models and bring back Squats.

I hope in the future there will still be many people who can play for enjoyment of the narrative and watching battles that are hard to predict unfold. I feel 40k has become more tournament style, more whiny, more nit picky, and less about sitting down and enjoying killing an hour or two. Though i have only been into war gaming for about 8 years. On the plus side models are WAY more detailed and complex due to new processes, also there is a larger range now and the game has become more balanced and refined.

but it has shifted the perception from GW being "nerdy" to "kiddy", IMO.

I also have to fully agree on that. I know a lot of people who think war gaming is for kids, and i must say i generally dislike younger players who are impairment.

While GW may have been making Wargames for three decades Wargames have been around for a lot longer, well over 100 years. In that time the biggest change is surely the streamlining of rules and their increased marketing for the general public.

Obsidian wrote:Some of the humour has gone out of the GW side of things. Thay are almost compleatly the stright man now. There are some hang overs the most feasom Ork warlord Ghazghkull Mag Uruk Thraka named after the most fearsom Pirme minsiter of Britan Margret Thatcher as well as Jokaero, ork madboyz , the Rainbow Warriors and many more.
However this has lead to a lot more humor from the gamer and hobbyist.

Why does everyone see the Rainbow Warriors as a humourous thing?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rainbow_Warrior

I would never field a Rainbow Warrior SM Army, i would be too busy looking over my shoulder waiting for the French Intelligence service to come and blow up my Chapter.

Fifty wrote:

Obsidian wrote:Some of the humour has gone out of the GW side of things. Thay are almost compleatly the stright man now. There are some hang overs the most feasom Ork warlord Ghazghkull Mag Uruk Thraka named after the most fearsom Pirme minsiter of Britan Margret Thatcher as well as Jokaero, ork madboyz , the Rainbow Warriors and many more.
However this has lead to a lot more humor from the gamer and hobbyist.

Why does everyone see the Rainbow Warriors as a humourous thing?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rainbow_Warrior

In the case of the Rainbow Warriors humor may be the wrong word. I don't think it needs repeating about the fact that they were undoutably made and named after the Green Peace boat of the same name as a tribute after it was sunk by the French. Also other than the picture of chapter colours the only other picture of a rainbow warrior shows one being shot by a Sister of Battle some say that this indicates the Rainbow warriors fell to chaos or have been removed, however when you look a the picture it seems more likely that by her name 'Sister Sin' and dress that it is she who fell to chaos. Which ever way round it is this picture is a subtle refrence to mwnciboo's comment as mentioned.

I am one of those nutters who is making a Rainbow Warriors Epic scale force currently in the P&M Blog (see my Sig). I'm basing them more the modern legend which was collected from many Native American Legends and hamogenized in the book Warriors of the Rainbow that was printed in 1962 this is in turn where Greenpeace got the name for their boat.

Back on thread.

Back in the day when you brought a Codex you had almost twice the number of pages and they had all the fluff in a farmore indepth format opposed to today where you buy the codex only have a 'flavor' of the back story/history of the race/chapter/organization and then have to buy furter publications in order to find out the full story.

Battle Sister shooting a Rainbow Warrior? aren't the Sisters French inspired? or to be more precise, Joan of Arc inspired? what with the heavy fleur-de-lis usage and being female warriors...

*shock* a deeper reference!

Hobby has gone from keeping the niche of war gamers happy , to recruiting new players as priority.

SaintHazard wrote:I think "things were better" back then.

Isn't that how it's supposed to go?

I wouldn't say things were altogether better... but they were certainly cheaper :-P

I like the new range of miniatures. In all honesty I don't think there has been much improvement in the quality of the sculpts since about 1990. Before that a lot of the models had that crude goofy look that's synonymous with rogue trader, but most of the miniatures released since then wouldn't look out of place on a modern battlefield... In fact many of the metal models from 2nd edition are still going strong.

The main difference I've noticed is with the ambitiousness of the miniatures now. Back in the day; if a marine had a power fist and no helmet... he was a Captain. Nowadays even a lowly veteran is awash with honours and custom armour, and as for chapter masters... In RT only the god emperor himself would have been important enough to wear that much crap.

Plastics have made a big difference too. In the old days if you wanted to make your own version of a special character it was a big and expensive project... It would involve sawing up lots of expensive metal miniatures for the good parts, and many hours of filing, drilling, pinning, and sculpting. Now with all the modular plastic kits, you can just clip one together in an afternoon, and they look fantastic.

Another thing I like is that 40k seems to be taking centre stage more and more now. I remember often being disappointed by the sparseness of 40k articles in white dwarf, since 40k existed for a long time in the shadow of WHFB. But I think the tables have well and truly turned over the years.

Of course it isn't all good, cost is certainly a downer. Plastic now costs more than metal used to. Codex books seem to be just a full on scam. Twice the price and half the size of what they used to be... Then half the book is copy and paste from books I already read 10 years ago. The only part I want is the 10 page army list at the back, which used to be included with the main rules, but now you have to spend many hundreds to buy it bit by bit as overpriced expansions.

I agree that the humour aspect of the game has changed. It's always been dark, but it takes itself much more seriously now. I'm sure Noise Marines only existed so a marine could have an electric guitar (anyone remember the Goff Rock Band?). Stuff like that wouldn't really fit in the new game.

I hate to say it but WH40K has for some reason eclipsed WHFB. I love WHFB but Space Marines are so damn cool, plus in 40K you get shooting, tanks and closecombat. It has a few more dynamics over WHFB!
I still think WHFB has been abandoned for a while and it is good that GW are going back to WHFB with Isle of Blood and giving it an overhaul.

Definitely agree that the net has changed the hobby, mostly I think forthe better.

Not sure I agree on the third party stuff though, when we played Rogue Trader you had to use non GW stuff, and infact the rules encouraged that - a tank from a talcum powder bottle anyone?