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Soo. Friday night rolls in and it's our weekly game. A Chaos Land Raider filled with Terminators and a lord attempt to tank shock Vet. Guardsmen from an objective. The melta vets pass their morale and declare DoG. The result is exploded LR with the terminators sitting in it's crater unpinned. And very angry .
Thus the question arises: can you assault out of an assault vehicle that isn't there any longer?

As i write this i realise that the answer is probably yes. We need to stop playing that late at night .
Please confirm my hunch....

If a transport explodes you don't disembark so there is nothing preventing you from assaulting even if you travelled by Rhino.

If a transport is wrecked you do disembark though but as you disembark before the transport becomes a wreck the Assault Vehicle rule is still in effect.

Webbe wrote:If a transport explodes you don't disembark so there is nothing preventing you from assaulting even if you travelled by Rhino.

If a transport is wrecked you do disembark though but as you disembark before the transport becomes a wreck the Assault Vehicle rule is still in effect.

Webbe is 110% correct. The "Destroyed - Explodes" result does not technically cause the unit to Disembark, so you can assault out of any transport that explodes, while Wrecked DOES make you disembark, so you can only assault out of an Open Topped Transport or one that has a special rule allowing you to assault.

Thanks! Like i said it seemed perfectrly reasonable at the time (3am) to disallow it. Thank you for your time.

Gwar! wrote:

Webbe wrote:If a transport explodes you don't disembark so there is nothing preventing you from assaulting even if you travelled by Rhino.

If a transport is wrecked you do disembark though but as you disembark before the transport becomes a wreck the Assault Vehicle rule is still in effect.

Webbe is 110% correct. The "Destroyed - Explodes" result does not technically cause the unit to Disembark, so you can assault out of any transport that explodes, while Wrecked DOES make you disembark, so you can only assault out of an Open Topped Transport or one that has a special rule allowing you to assault.

That is a wonderful distinction until one looks at page 67 for the rule on assaulting ex-passengers, and sees the part where GW uses the phrase "the now disembarked passengers" to refer to passengers of a vehicle which either exploded or wrecked.

solkan wrote:
That is a wonderful distinction until one looks at page 67 for the rule on assaulting ex-passengers, and sees the part where GW uses the phrase "the now disembarked passengers" to refer to passengers of a vehicle which either exploded or wrecked.

That's a wonderful distinction until one realizes that the rules for explodes never say they Disembark (and go to some lengths to explain a different way for them to leave the vehicle), and that 'disembarked' has a meaning in the English language which applies to any passengers which have left a vehicle.

Gorkamorka wrote:

solkan wrote:
That is a wonderful distinction until one looks at page 67 for the rule on assaulting ex-passengers, and sees the part where GW uses the phrase "the now disembarked passengers" to refer to passengers of a vehicle which either exploded or wrecked.

That's a wonderful distinction until one realizes that the rules for explodes never say they Disembark (and go to some lengths to explain a different way for them to leave the vehicle), and that 'disembarked' has a meaning in the English language which applies to any passengers which have left a vehicle.

You've actually wrote:

". . . that 'disembarked' has a meaning in the English language which applies to any passengers which have left a vehicle."

after writing:

". . . go on to some lengths to explain a different way for themto leave the vehicle . . ."


So, are you trying to say that disembarking means leaving a vehicle, but that leaving a vehicle is not disembarking, despite that fact that having left a vehicle you have disembarked?

It really doesn't matter if the entry uses the word disembark for Vehicle - Explodes, because if the unit isn't in the vehicle when it once was it has disembarked. There's no avoiding it. The proccess through which you become disembarked is the action of disembarking. Regardless of which specific action - be it walking out, teleporting out, snapping ones finger and making the vehicle disappear, the vehicle exploding out away from you, being pushed out literally through a meat grinder etc, etc. you have disembarked.

I think this is a bit silly.

So, a ship blows up offshore and the newspaper reports the passengers disembarking as a result. If the ship blew up, it didn't unload anything... it blew up, leaving the things inside without any way to exit. The tank disappeared before it had a chance to unload the units, it was the lack of a transport that left the units without an option to disembark.



You can't disembark from an explosion, it really makes no sense. Ejecting an object is not always synonymous with unloading one and it is hard to say that the ship ejects anything, when it has become pieces of a ship in the first place. The explosion is the action which removes the units inside a transport from within a transport, alternatively it is what removes the transport from the units within, leaving those units no way to disembark.

The difference between being surrounded in a transport and losing it to wrecked, or losing it to explodes should clear this up a bit as well. The tranport needs to be there to have any effect. As there are no explicit rules stating that the explodes effect does anything besides drop it's contents and leave a crater after a D6 S3 blast, one can safely assume that one can indeed assault after an explodes result.

You can't disembark from a nonexistent object. I guess if you really flex the definition of disembark... it still doesn't matter because you would be disembarking from an explosion, whatever the hell that would mean. The explosion replaces the vehicle as it happens, before the models inside are even placed on the board. You remove the vehicle and put down a crater, representing the fact that the vehicle disappeared in the beginning stages of an explosion, BEFORE the models inside were placed on the board.

Yes, there is a weird limbo for units inside transports here, they are in a certain space but it is undefined beyond containing the beginning of an explosion. If a house gets ripped into a thousand pieces by a tornado, is it still a house? It is pieces of a house, and WH40k rules say nothing about pieces of a vehicle.

So, it's silly to use the word disembarked to refer to a unit that was in a vehicle now exploded - which leads to them being able to assault. But the unit that merrily jaunts out the back door with a whistle on their lips and a spring in their step is so burdened by the effort that they can not assault is not silly?

While the idea that leaving by vehicular explosion isn't the first thing that springs to mind when I think of disembarking. Here we still are with "However, if a transport is destroyed (either result) by a ranged attack, the unit that shot it may assault the now disembarked passengers . . ."p67 BRB as correct usage of the word disembark. Disembarked describe the state of that which is no longer in a vehicle, it implies nothing of the state of said vehicle other then that something is no longer in it.

The problem with the "that's silly" argument is that in a fictional setting it's also silly, and it leads to all sort of "that's silly" finger pointing.

I do happen to think this is a bit silly. There are a lot of questionable points in the WH40k rules.

After disembarking, these models may
shoot (counting as moving), but may not assault.

The surviving passengers are placed where
the vehicle used to be and then take a Pinning test.

However, if a transport is destroyed
(either result) by a ranged attack, the unit that shot it
may assault the now disembarked passengers, if it is
allowed to assault according to the assault rules.

What you are suggesting also seems to suggest that after disembarking at any point in the game, the squad always counts as having disembarked. There is no mention of the squad disembarking, whether or not there is mention of them being 'Now disembarked'.

If you disembark on turn one, you are 'Now disembarked' until you enter another vehicle. At any point you are not in a specific transport when you were before, you are 'Now disembarked' and the action is complete, requiring a second disembarkation to trigger the 'disembark' rules. The act of disembarking is not explicitly stated, as I and others have already mentioned. There is no rule stating that the models left without a transport can't assault. When in doubt, refer to RaW.

Note how direct this statement is when compared with explodes.

Destroyed – wrecked
The passengers must immediately disembark and then
take a Pinning test. Any models that cannot disembark
are destroyed. After this, the vehicle becomes a wreck.

Vs.

The surviving passengers are placed where
the vehicle used to be and then take a Pinning test.

You can be infinitely 'Now disembarked'.

Wrexasaur wrote:I do happen to think this is a bit silly. There are a lot of questionable points in the WH40k rules.

After disembarking, these models may
shoot (counting as moving), but may not assault.

The surviving passengers are placed where
the vehicle used to be and then take a Pinning test.

However, if a transport is destroyed
(either result) by a ranged attack, the unit that shot it
may assault the now disembarked passengers, if it is
allowed to assault according to the assault rules.

What you are suggesting also seems to suggest that after disembarking at any point in the game, the squad always counts as having disembarked. There is no mention of the squad disembarking, whether or not there is mention of them being 'Now disembarked'.

If you disembark on turn one, you are 'Now disembarked' until you enter another vehicle. At any point you are not in a specific transport when you were before, you are 'Now disembarked' and the action is complete, requiring a second disembarkation to trigger the 'disembark' rules. The act of disembarking is not explicitly stated, as I and others have already mentioned. There is no rule stating that the models left without a transport can't assault. When in doubt, refer to RaW.

Note how direct this statement is when compared with explodes.

Destroyed – wrecked
The passengers must immediately disembark and then
take a Pinning test. Any models that cannot disembark
are destroyed. After this, the vehicle becomes a wreck.

Vs.

The surviving passengers are placed where
the vehicle used to be and then take a Pinning test.

One can not be the animal cat without being the animal feline anymore then you can be the animal feline without being the animal cat. The same holds for "disembarked" and "no longer being in the vehicle" they are synonymous. Whether the word disembarked is used or not RaW clearly states the models are not in the vehicle. This isn't implying they have disembarked it is directy stating it, RaW says they are placed on the table, the very definition of disembarking.

Wrexasaur wrote:You can be infinitely 'Now disembarked'.

Where does the silliness end would be a great question. Does it end with a units sequence, a phase, a turn, a game? Or with allowing units to assault after an explosion but not after using a door?

Wrexasaur wrote:After disembarking, these models may shoot (counting as moving), but may not assault."

The entire paragraph (first one p67 BRB) that it is snipped from is clearly talking about actions that turn and not the rest of the game even though they are in fact in the state of disembarked the rest of the game.

I would love if it were that clear, I really would.

It is not stated that all results work in the same way.

EFFECTS OF DAMAGE
RESULTS ON PASSENGERS

Wrecked... "passengers must immediately disembark"

Explodes!... "The surviving passengers are placed where
the vehicle used to be and then take a Pinning test."

I'll leave this discussion for the time being on this note. Explain to me why you assume that both results have the same consequences, when they don't.

Same section, different rules. If the squad exits an explosion, they aren't disembarking from a vehicle. You could say that disembarking into an explosion, then exiting the explosion is the same as disembarking from a transport. I would say that you are wrong.

Rules lawyers, got to love em, just be glad you don't have them in at your FLGS

Wrexasaur wrote:I would love if it were that clear, I really would.

It is not stated that all results work in the same way.

EFFECTS OF DAMAGE
RESULTS ON PASSENGERS

Wrecked... "passengers must immediately disembark"

Explodes!... "The surviving passengers are placed where
the vehicle used to be and then take a Pinning test."

I'll leave this discussion for the time being on this note. Explain to me why you assume that both results have the same consequences, when they don't.

Same section, different rules. If the squad exits an explosion, they aren't disembarking from a vehicle. You could say that disembarking into an explosion, then exiting the explosion is the same as disembarking from a transport. I would say that you are wrong.

Relativism of the sort "is the vehicle performing the action (i.e. exploding) or is the unit preforming the action (i.e. using the door)?" does not lead to the former not being an action of disembarking of the unit and the latter being one.

General_Chaos wrote:Rules lawyers, got to love em, just be glad you don't have them in at your FLGS

Yeah at your FLGS where people have to "Physically win combat to use Hit & Run..." - GWBS.

With out going into the debate of what to call getting your ass flung out of an exploding vehicle; my question is how would they assault out of the vehicle if it is not their turn to do so?


As I understand it, this land raider is being shot at and thus it is the enemies turn. At what point in the enemy player's turn can the Termies inside this LR decide to assault out of their ride? I mean I would love to be able to randomly choose assaulty bits in my armies to just jump to action in the other players turn. But I'm still missing the part where they would get to do this?

As the vehicle would be destroyed in the other players turn, leadership/pinning tests are taken ((in this case passed)) and of course with the right result in the following turn that Terminator squad could then walk, shoot or assault from their postion as normal "disembarked" units. So I don't get where assaulting out of a destroyed LR would come into play. Even a wreck because it forces you out at the end of that result anyway. Either way, you end up outside of the vehicle, the vehicle gone, and still waiting for your turn to end. Even if it was the last shooting in the enemies shooting phase, the tank is still gone and thus one is no longer embarked/inside it.

Dracheous ,if you would read the OP, then you would see that he was tank shocking with a vehicle on his turn, and the squad he was shocking performed a Death or Glory, and exploded his LR, on his turn, which brings up this situation.

Death or Glory as mentioned in the initial post.

"Disembarking" is a defined rule within the game, and counts as moving - which is why you cannot place models within 1" of an enemy model.

The Explodes! result is NOT disembarking, as you are PLACED - not moved - and can therefore be within 1" of an enemy.

AS such you can assault. You have not disembarked in the game sense (for a start you have neither used an exit nor have you been placed within 2" of the hull, you were placed INSIDE the hull) but you have disembarked in the english sense of "no longer being in a vehicle"

Ahh, the old disembarked/didn't disembark/it exploded argument. Do a search, this has been covered several times with no real consensus.

If they didn't disembark, could the unit move then assault after the vehicle explodes? IE could you take a DE tank, ram from across the board, explode, get out, move then assault..?

WEll if you can find a DE transport vehicle that can ram then yes, as long as you explode.

Hmm, what about Eldar tanks then?

nosferatu1001 wrote:WEll if you can find a DE transport vehicle that can ram then yes, as long as you explode.

Yep, as long as you explode you have not disembarked in the game sense (as you have not followed any of the rules for disembarking, not a single one) and therefore may assault.

Of course if you only *wreck* your vehicle you die, as you may not disembark at all if you move flat out (which a ramming skimmer is likely to be doing)

You could move as well right? Since you didn't disembark...? So, in theory, you could ram 18"...explode....move 6 inches, fleet d6 inches, assault 6 inches? Strange situation but possible!

nosferatu1001 wrote:Yep, as long as you explode you have not disembarked in the game sense (as you have not followed any of the rules for disembarking, not a single one) and therefore may assault.

Of course if you only *wreck* your vehicle you die, as you may not disembark at all if you move flat out (which a ramming skimmer is likely to be doing)

Ram 24" for a fast skimmer.

Of course you need to survive the pinning test, the wounds on 3+ (bad for say, harlies) for most of your troops (wraithguard would survive and wouldnt be pinned) and avoid the 1/3 of damage results where you die (immob, wreck) and the 1/2 of results where nothing much happens (or you die, if you roll weapon destroyed and have already lost all weapons) just for that 1/6 chance where you can get out and assault.

I'm sure this has been covered but it seems rather simple to me. The rules absolutely allow the assault.

As for the logic behind it, there's actually a kind of sense to it. When a vehicle is wrecked the unit must disembark. This is done in an orderly fashion out of the various hatches and follows all the disembarking rules. When the vehicle explodes it means that parts of the hull have been flung away or simply vanish in a cloud of vaporised ceramite. The unit inside is wearing super space armour of some kind and therefore have the chance of surviving this disaster, and if they do there is no longer any hull in there way or hatches to open and negotiate so they are free to assault (if it is there turn to do so).

I'm familiar with math....I just wanted to see if it was possible.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Ram 24" for a fast skimmer.

Of course you need to survive the pinning test, the wounds on 3+ (bad for say, harlies) for most of your troops (wraithguard would survive and wouldnt be pinned) and avoid the 1/3 of damage results where you die (immob, wreck) and the 1/2 of results where nothing much happens (or you die, if you roll weapon destroyed and have already lost all weapons) just for that 1/6 chance where you can get out and assault.

Yes, as it is the same situation - how you got to "explodes!" isnt really the issue!

nosferatu1001 wrote:"Disembarking" is a defined rule within the game, and counts as moving - which is why you cannot place models within 1" of an enemy model.

The Explodes! result is NOT disembarking, as you are PLACED - not moved - and can therefore be within 1" of an enemy.

AS such you can assault. You have not disembarked in the game sense (for a start you have neither used an exit nor have you been placed within 2" of the hull, you were placed INSIDE the hull) but you have disembarked in the english sense of "no longer being in a vehicle"

Incorrect, The Explodes! result IS disembarking.

they can assault out of the now Exploded land raider if it is an assault vehicle, if it is not an assault vehicle then they can not assault.

Page 67 under Destroyed - Explodes says ... If a transport is destroyed (Either Result) by a ranged attack, the unit that shot at it may assault the NOW DISEMBARKED passengers.

This shows that models inside a transport that suffer a Destroyed - Wrecked or Destroyed - Explodes result, have indeed DISEMBARKED. Quite clear really.

Nope, not at all. 2 uses of the word. One the defined process, the other the general english.

Given that the "disembarked" models didnt follow ANY OF THE RULES FOR DISEMBARKING I dont think they dismembark.