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nosferatu1001 wrote:You are incorrect, why can you not understand this?
You are unable to understand context and usage. One is Disembark, the other is disembark. One is the usage of the disembark rules, which NOONE ON EXPLODES FOLLOWS, the other is the general state of no longer being in a vehicle.

RAW: On an explodes result you may assault, even if the vehicle moved.

only if the vehicle is an assault vehicle, you are adding rules that are simply not there.

and it is clear that you can not assault from a transport that has moved. the rules state this.

so disembark is different than disembark? the rules for disembarking and the state of being disembarked are one in the same.

we must speak different languages.

if you are in a transport, and you leave said transport by any means you have disembarked. and thus you can not assault. (Unless it is an Assault vehicle)

you have to look at intent, no other unit can assault out of a rhino or razorback that has moved so it would be insane to think that you could assault simply because the enemy have exploded your vehicle after its move.

Destroyed – wrecked
The passengers must immediately disembark and then
take a Pinning test.
Destroyed – explodes!
The unit suffers a number of Strength 4, AP– hits equal
to the number of models embarked, treated just like hits
from shooting then take a Pinning test.

Units are not allowed to assault if:
They are already locked in close combat.
They ran in the Shooting phase
They have gone to ground
They shot rapid fire weapons or heavy weapons in the Shooting phase
They are falling back

They right DeathReaper, they don't disembark they 'fall-out' onto their faces. Suffering a destroyed - explodes result IS NOT something that forbids and assault.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
However for an example; if a unit shot a heavy weapon/s from their vehicle in the shooting phase and somehow sufferd an Explodes result - they would not be allowed to assault.

ChrisCP wrote:Destroyed – wrecked
The passengers must immediately disembark and then
take a Pinning test.
Destroyed – explodes!
The unit suffers a number of Strength 4, AP– hits equal
to the number of models embarked, treated just like hits
from shooting then take a Pinning test.

Units are not allowed to assault if:
They are already locked in close combat.
They ran in the Shooting phase
They have gone to ground
They shot rapid fire weapons or heavy weapons in the Shooting phase
They are falling back

They right DeathReaper, they don't disembark they 'fall-out' onto their faces. Suffering a destroyed - explodes result IS NOT something that forbids and assault.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
However for an example; if a unit shot a heavy weapon/s from their vehicle in the shooting phase and somehow sufferd an Explodes result - they would not be allowed to assault.

did you read the section on not allowing models to assault if their transport has moved?

if the only time it lets you assault if the transport has moved is if the transport is an assault vehicle.

( P67.) states "If a vehicle has already moved, the passengers may disembark, but NOT MOVE ANY FURTHER in that movement phase..." [it goes on to say they can not assault either] and since they are "...forced to disembark if their transport is destroyed"(P.66) they can not assault
or are people ignoring this?
disembark = they were riding in the transport when it moved, and now in the same turn they are no longer aboard said vehicle

would love to hear what the grand tourney judges say about this one, something tells me that they would rule as i have.

Nope, they dont. Not in the UK GT at least (last year finals and heat 2 if memory serves) which you would hope, being at WHW and being attended by studio staff would have some clue what they meant.

Stop removing context. Disembark, the proper noun, refers to the series of rules that you follow to exit a vehicle *normally* Explodes DOES NOT make you Disembark, as you do not follow *any* of the rules for Disembark. You are, however, disembarked as you are no longer inside a vehicle.

Your inabiltiy to tell the difference between the two is telling.

DeathReaper wrote:
did you read the section on not allowing models to assault if their transport has moved?

if the only time it lets you assault if the transport has moved is if the transport is an assault vehicle.

I'm not being asinine but this might help.

What transport are you talking about? Can you point at it?

ChrisCP wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:
did you read the section on not allowing models to assault if their transport has moved?

if the only time it lets you assault if the transport has moved is if the transport is an assault vehicle.

I'm not being asinine but this might help.

What transport are you talking about? Can you point at it?

Page 67 under disembarking

"If the vehicle has moved (including pivoting on the spot), the passengers may disembark, but not move any further in that movement phase. once the models have disembarked, the vehicle may not move any further. after disembarking, these models may shoot (counts as moving), but may not assault.

and since p.66 Embarking and disembarking states "...[models] may embark and then be forced to disembark if their transport is destroyed."

therefore a model that is in a transport when it blows up has been forced to disembark, and can not assault.

Your conclusion is unsuported. As was pointed out earlier the "may" in that sentence further undermines your argument.

Destroyed - wrecked forces them to disembark. To decide that destroyed - explodes, where they are not forced to disembark (seriously, I woul dsuggest rereading that result and look for anything which even hints at disembark happening) fulfils that requirement is unsupported and illogical.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Lotet - the rules for explode do not let you disembark, you in fact follow precisely 0 of the rules for disembarking.

well duh, I wasn't using any rules or making any statment on which way is right or wrong. I was just mumbling about something that bothered me with what that guy said

nosferatu1001 wrote:You are incorrect, why can you not understand this?
You are unable to understand context and usage. One is Disembark, the other is disembark. One is the usage of the disembark rules, which NOONE ON EXPLODES FOLLOWS, the other is the general state of no longer being in a vehicle.

RAW: On an explodes result you may assault, even if the vehicle moved.

Intended and Writen, these two words have meaning and you're trying to decide the usage of both in an inconsistant manner. ignoring rules that are well within the bounds of affecting other rules? how can you decide what is Implied or Redundant? but hey, get enough people to say something is true then it's bound to become the truth...



now I'm just messing with ya

DeathReaper wrote:

ChrisCP wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:
did you read the section on not allowing models to assault if their transport has moved?

if the only time it lets you assault if the transport has moved is if the transport is an assault vehicle.

I'm not being asinine but this might help.

What transport are you talking about? Can you point at it?

Page 67 under disembarking

"If the vehicle has moved (including pivoting on the spot), the passengers may disembark, but not move any further in that movement phase. once the models have disembarked, the vehicle may not move any further. after disembarking, these models may shoot (counts as moving), but may not assault.

and since p.66 Embarking and disembarking states "...[models] may embark and then be forced to disembark if their transport is destroyed."

therefore a model that is in a transport when it blows up has been forced to disembark, and can not assault.

Again for that squad at that time where is the transport they have disembarked from?

Lotet - not ignoring rules at all, please refer to the other posts.

ChrisCP wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:

ChrisCP wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:
did you read the section on not allowing models to assault if their transport has moved?

if the only time it lets you assault if the transport has moved is if the transport is an assault vehicle.

I'm not being asinine but this might help.

What transport are you talking about? Can you point at it?

Page 67 under disembarking

"If the vehicle has moved (including pivoting on the spot), the passengers may disembark, but not move any further in that movement phase. once the models have disembarked, the vehicle may not move any further. after disembarking, these models may shoot (counts as moving), but may not assault.

and since p.66 Embarking and disembarking states "...[models] may embark and then be forced to disembark if their transport is destroyed."

therefore a model that is in a transport when it blows up has been forced to disembark, and can not assault.

Again for that squad at that time where is the transport they have disembarked from?

Juts because the transport is destroyed does not negate the fact that they moved within it that same turn, however

the transport they have disembarked from is in a nice little crater of difficult terrain around them in a thousand pieces.

for movement and assault rules the max any SM unit can move and assault in one turn is 18" (Jump pack 12" 6" assault.)

to think that one can take a BA rhino, move it flat out in a ramming attempt, get it exploded, drop your marines and assault anything 24" away from where you started the turn is cheating.

Wrong, with fleet (Shrike) you can get another 6" from that.

Sorry that you cant see where you are going wrong, but you dont have a rules argument any longer as you have failed to address 2 critical flaws in your argument.

Denying someone the ability to assault after an explodes! result is cheating.

The vehicle moving isn't why people can't assault. It is when they disembark from a vehicle that has moved. Since the unit never did that then they aren't prohibited from assaulting.

BrockRitcey wrote:The vehicle moving isn't why people can't assault. It is when they disembark from a vehicle that has moved. Since the unit never did that then they aren't prohibited from assaulting.

Actually is is, if the vehicle moves and it gets destroyed they did indeed disembark they were forced to disembark (People must be ignoring this line, it clearly states they disembark when their vehicle is destroyed) it says that a unit is forced to disembark if their transport is destroyed on page 66. it doesn't need to be in the explodes section because it is already implied that they disembark if their vehicle is no longer there.

why have the assault vehicle rule if any vehicle can move get exploded and assault?

by what you are saying I can take Blood Angels rhinos load em up with assault troops, Flat out move them backwards so i ram my opponents on my 10 armor vehicles and destroy my vehicle just so i can assault the first turn? that really seems like cheating.

DeathReaper wrote:They did indeed disembark they were forced to disembark (People must be ignoring this line, it clearly states they disembark when their vehicle id destroyed)

Only for Wrecked.

Totally against the rules as intended.

You wrote the Rulebook then? Can we get a pic, oh mighty Allesio?

by what you are saying I can take Blood Angels rhinos load em up with assault troops, Flat out move them backwards so i ram my opponents vehicles and destroy my vehicle just so i can assault the first turn? that really seems like cheating.

No, not really, because you can't start the game closer than 18" (+1 Planck Length) from an enemy. And that's only if they infiltrate. Good Luck finding an Infiltrating vehicle.

Even if you did, Flat out Rhinos only move 18", so you would in fact be cheating by taking extra movement.

If you are going to try and make a silly incorrect argument, at least TRY and do it right.

Why does the second paragraph of the Destroyed- explodes! description refer to the models in question as "the now disembarked passengers" then?

Hmmm?

Monster Rain wrote:Why does the second paragraph of the Destroyed- explodes! description refer to the models in question as "the now disembarked passengers" then?

Hmmm?

Because they are disembarked. This is not the same as being made to Disembark.

Gwar! wrote:Because they are disembarked. This is not the same as being made to Disembark.

So they can move or jump in another vehicle? Missed that.

More to read.

Can one be "disembarked" without first "disembarking"?

The fact that I just had to type that makes me sad.

Monster Rain wrote:Can one be "disembarked" without first "disembarking"?

The fact that I just had to type that makes me sad.

Potentially. Disembarking has rules to follow, skipping those rules should mean the term should be avoided (See Instant Death queries for JotWW, NFW, etc. for reference). The issue really is Specific vs. General.
Which seems obvious, but is nonetheless up for debate.

I have yet to meet someone in person who thinks the explodes rules are NOT a more specific disembarkation, but they do--in fact--exist, and have a good point.

Monster Rain wrote:Can one be "disembarked" without first "disembarking"?

Yes, they can. When the vehicle explodes, they are placed in the space left. This is not the same as Disembarking, which requires you to be placed within 2" of the access points.

With enough vehicles then, infantry theoretically have no range limit? There is no restriction on how many times a single unit can embark per phase. . .

kirsanth wrote:With enough vehicles then, infantry theoretically have no range limit? There is no restriction on how many times a single unit can embark per phase. . .

Incorrect. Models may only move once per movement phase. Embarking is done as part of a units move, which means the unit has moved. As such, it cannot then move again to embark upon another transport.

Thanks, I knew I was missing something obvious.

Can you guys please stick to the point of the LRC and it has an assault ramp that allows you to assault after you disembark...


Also not this vehicle is in the space marine codex and if you read up under the lard raider crusader. Then you will find a section about assault ramp rules.

After this you will have a full understanding of how all this takes place.

Please remember we are talking about the LRC people and its listed in the SM codex.

Gwar! wrote:No, not really, because you can't start the game closer than 18" (+1 Planck Length) from an enemy. And that's only if they infiltrate. Good Luck finding an Infiltrating vehicle.

Even if you did, Flat out Rhinos only move 18", so you would in fact be cheating by taking extra movement.

If you are going to try and make a silly incorrect argument, at least TRY and do it right.

on my first turn after my opponents have moved i am less than 18" away from target vehicle.

Blood Angels rhinos are fast vehicles. they can move 18" they move 24" if they follow a road so on a cityscape map, i follow the road that my Blood angels rhino is on as well as the target vehicle, then i get a 24" move for my troops and then assault up to 6" more? 30 inches in one move with assault? yea that does not sound like cheating to me...(sarcasm)

Monster Rain wrote: Can one be "disembarked" without first "disembarking"?

and Monster Rain has the right idea.

Gwar! wrote:Only for Wrecked.

and not only for wrecked, since p.66 Embarking and disembarking states "...[models] may embark and then be forced to disembark if their transport is destroyed." that does not say destroyed - Wrecked, that says destroyed. so if the transport is destroyed by any means they are forced to Disembark it is implied under Destroyed - Explodes that they have indeed disembarked. since they are forced to as noted on p.66

You are missing the fun part. . .
p.67: If a transport is destroyed (either result) by a ranged attack, the unit that shot it may assault the now disembarked passengers.

So they cannot be assaulted by the unit that destroyed the transport?
"Either result" is there just to confuse people and not actually part of the rules?
"Now disembarked" does not mean that the unit has completed "disembarking"?

etc.

Monster Rain wrote:Can one be "disembarked" without first "disembarking"?

The fact that I just had to type that makes me sad.

Yes, by no longer being embarked. being embarked means one has boarded a 'transport' for a journey, disembarking is to remove or unload passengers or goods from a 'transport' if you remove the vehicle however - you have not disembarked (removing the cargo from the vehicle)

What I don't understand is how the inclusion of 'disembark' in the destroyed - wrecked results, is convincing people the the words absence from 'destroyed - explodes' is irrelivent.

Second Apparition wrote:
Be bloody, bold, and resolute; laugh to scorn
The power of man, for none of woman born
Shall harm Macbeth.

I just don't buy that, RaW is not a effort in theatrical literature. To be disembarked means you disembarked.

Leez wrote:

Second Apparition wrote:
Be bloody, bold, and resolute; laugh to scorn
The power of man, for none of woman born
Shall harm Macbeth.

I just don't buy that, RaW is not a effort in theatrical literature. To be disembarked means you disembarked.

And it's that simple.