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Or, put like this:

The act of disembarking and the state of being disembarked are two very different things. The state of being disembarked only requires you to have recently been in a transportation device, where the term "recently" is very highly subjective time period (could be minutes, could be days).

nosferatu1001 wrote:Nope, not at all. 2 uses of the word. One the defined process, the other the general english.

Given that the "disembarked" models didnt follow ANY OF THE RULES FOR DISEMBARKING I dont think they dismembark.

Simply because it is a given that if they were in a transport, and the transport explodes into a thousand scraps, they have by default disembarked, granted through no fault of their own, but they sill have disembarked.

Also there is the other bullet point under the Disembarking (also P67.) states "If a vehicle has already moved, the passengers may disembark, but NOT MOVE ANY FURTHER in that movement phase..." [it goes on to say they can not assault either]

so clearly they can not assault unless it is an Assault Vehicle.

Except, as pointed out, the passengers are now "disembarked" but did not do so using the "disembark" rules - as I pointed out explodes follows NONE of the disembark rules.

Sorry but you are simply incorrect on this, as you ignore context.

This issue can be difficult to uinderstand because of the nature of the 40k rules. There are words that are rules (in this case Disembark) that have a set of conditions attached to them, then gw uses those same words (in this case disembarked) in other places in their ordinary english form to refer to events that happen(ed).

Disembark as a rule has a set of conditions, a unit has to follw those conditions if it disembarks. If a unit leaves their vehicle without following the rules for Disembark, then it has merely disembarked (left its vehicle).

It doesnt help matters that the 40k rules have several authors, or that the rules have been written over many years.



Sliggoth

nosferatu1001 wrote:Except, as pointed out, the passengers are now "disembarked" but did not do so using the "disembark" rules - as I pointed out explodes follows NONE of the disembark rules.

Sorry but you are simply incorrect on this, as you ignore context.

Look at Page 66,

"Embarking and disembarking. models can only voluntarily embark or disembark in the movement phase, and may not voluntarily both Embark
and disembark in the same player turn. however, they may embark and then BE FORCED TO DISEMBARK if their transport is destroyed.

and since it does not say destroyed wrecked, they must mean both destroyed results.

so unless it is an assault vehicle, you can not move, get exploded and then assault from a transport.
so it seems that you are the one that is simply incorrect.

Actually, no, you are.

By your logic, you can never be forced to disembark, as there is no "Destroyed" result on the Vehicle Damage table, only "Destroyed - Wrecked" and "Destroyed - Explodes".
Much in the same way that a "Storm Bolter" and a "Heavy Bolter" are not the same as a "Bolter", "Destroyed - Wrecked" and "Destroyed - Explodes" are not the same as "Destroyed".

See, we can play semantics too, but I do it better.

<Grammanazi>Capital letters go at the star of sentences.</Grammanazi>

Gwar! wrote:Actually, no, you are.

By your logic, you can never be forced to disembark, as there is no "Destroyed" result on the Vehicle Damage table, only "Destroyed - Wrecked" and "Destroyed - Explodes".
Much in the same way that a "Storm Bolter" and a "Heavy Bolter" are not the same as a "Bolter", "Destroyed - Wrecked" and "Destroyed - Explodes" are not the same as "Destroyed".

See, we can play semantics too, but I do it better.

<Grammanazi>Capital letters go at the star of sentences.</Grammanazi>

There is no destroyed result? really? you just mentioned 2 destroyed results.
notice how Destroyed - Wrecked, and Destroyed - Explodes are both destroyed results. since in either case the vehicle is destroyed.

If you actually read my post you would see the logic in it.

what does "they may embark and then be forced to disembark if their transport is destroyed." mean to you?
To everyone it means they are forced to disembark if their transport is destroyed (by any means)

I do not know how to explain it any better. if you are still confused please ask, but i think i have made it clear.

DeathReaper wrote:

Gwar! wrote:Actually, no, you are.

By your logic, you can never be forced to disembark, as there is no "Destroyed" result on the Vehicle Damage table, only "Destroyed - Wrecked" and "Destroyed - Explodes".
Much in the same way that a "Storm Bolter" and a "Heavy Bolter" are not the same as a "Bolter", "Destroyed - Wrecked" and "Destroyed - Explodes" are not the same as "Destroyed".

See, we can play semantics too, but I do it better.

<Grammanazi>Capital letters go at the star of sentences.</Grammanazi>

There is no destroyed result? really? you just mentioned 2 destroyed results.
notice how Destroyed - Wrecked, and Destroyed - Explodes are both destroyed results. since in either case the vehicle is destroyed.

If you actually read my post you would see the logic in it.

what does "they may embark and then be forced to disembark if their transport is destroyed." mean to you?
To everyone it means they are forced to disembark if their transport is destroyed (by any means)

I do not know how to explain it any better. if you are still confused please ask, but i think i have made it clear.

All that does is give them permission to disembark when their vehicle is destroyed. Normally a model cannot disembark in the same turn the embarked. Now when you get a destroyed result that makes you disembark you can disembark. The destroyed - explodes doesn't cause you to disembark, it places you in the crater where your vehicle was so that line doesn't really matter when you get the destroyed -explodes result.

BrockRitcey wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:

Gwar! wrote:Actually, no, you are.

By your logic, you can never be forced to disembark, as there is no "Destroyed" result on the Vehicle Damage table, only "Destroyed - Wrecked" and "Destroyed - Explodes".
Much in the same way that a "Storm Bolter" and a "Heavy Bolter" are not the same as a "Bolter", "Destroyed - Wrecked" and "Destroyed - Explodes" are not the same as "Destroyed".

See, we can play semantics too, but I do it better.

<Grammanazi>Capital letters go at the star of sentences.</Grammanazi>

There is no destroyed result? really? you just mentioned 2 destroyed results.
notice how Destroyed - Wrecked, and Destroyed - Explodes are both destroyed results. since in either case the vehicle is destroyed.

If you actually read my post you would see the logic in it.

what does "they may embark and then be forced to disembark if their transport is destroyed." mean to you?
To everyone it means they are forced to disembark if their transport is destroyed (by any means)

I do not know how to explain it any better. if you are still confused please ask, but i think i have made it clear.

All that does is give them permission to disembark when their vehicle is destroyed. Normally a model cannot disembark in the same turn the embarked. Now when you get a destroyed result that makes you disembark you can disembark. The destroyed - explodes doesn't cause you to disembark, it places you in the crater where your vehicle was so that line doesn't really matter when you get the destroyed -explodes result.

Thank you for making my point. They disembark when their vehicle is destroyed.

"... forced to disembark if their transport is destroyed." means if their transport is destroyed they disembark, and as such can not assault
unless it is an assault vehicle and they move 12" or less.

hopefully this should clear this situation up.

PLease explain how they have Disembarked despite not following ANY of the disembark rules.

You keep ignoring this thinking it somehow proves your point. It doesnt.

You are confused between Disembark and disembark, I dont know how everyone can explain this any clearer to you.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Sorry but you are simply incorrect on this, as you ignore context.

Ignoring the Context? he's refering to a statement that's directly beneath the "Explodes" rule in the transport section. It's not some sort of obscure phrase off in some distant part of the book, it's still in the process of describing what happens to people that have thier transport detonated. we don't denote things for being in a separate paragraph despite being in the same section do we?

DeathReaper wrote:

Thank you for making my point. They disembark when their vehicle is destroyed.

"... forced to disembark if their transport is destroyed." means if their transport is destroyed they disembark, and as such can not assault
unless it is an assault vehicle and they move 12" or less.

hopefully this should clear this situation up.

I never said they disembark. That rule allows for a unit to disembark when it suffers a destroyed result. It doesn't tell you to disembark, but makes it possible for them to disembark. The wrecked result tells you to disembark, the explodes result tells you to place the models in the crater. Only in the wrecked result to do disembark and that rule allows for that.

Lotet - the rules for explode do not let you disembark, you in fact follow precisely 0 of the rules for disembarking.

SO you dont Disembark, you just end up actually disembarked. Entirely different.

The rules for the act of disembarking has you place your units within 2" of the transport. How can you place your unit within 2" of your transport if it's not there any more?
If Destroyed - Explodes! has you disembark, then you can't disembark because you can't follow the rules for disembarkation.

Additionally, examine the logic of "However, they may embark and then be forced to disembark if their transport is destroyed". Then re-read it and see if you can spot a word which express uncertainty. I'll give you a hint, it's "may". This means that this CAN happen, but that it's not exclusive or guaranteed.

Mahtamori wrote:The rules for the act of disembarking has you place your units within 2" of the transport. How can you place your unit within 2" of your transport if it's not there any more?

Not that I am agreeing, but they do print rules for how that would occur. . .

kirsanth wrote:

Mahtamori wrote:The rules for the act of disembarking has you place your units within 2" of the transport. How can you place your unit within 2" of your transport if it's not there any more?

Not that I am agreeing, but they do print rules for how that would occur. . .

Well, yeah, of course, I'm just pointing out that Destroyed - Explodes doesn't follow the rules for disembarkation with an example.

So your asking if the unit can still assault that turn? Yes, I'm sure they can, since they didn't disembark.

Mahtamori wrote:

kirsanth wrote:

Mahtamori wrote:The rules for the act of disembarking has you place your units within 2" of the transport. How can you place your unit within 2" of your transport if it's not there any more?

Not that I am agreeing, but they do print rules for how that would occur. . .

Well, yeah, of course, I'm just pointing out that Destroyed - Explodes doesn't follow the rules for disembarkation with an example.

I was pointing out that specific rules delineating placement during what is generally agreed to be disembarking (without being named as such) could be read as a more specific version of disembarking.

Samus_aran115 wrote:So your asking if the unit can still assault that turn? Yes, I'm sure they can, since they didn't disembark.

But they can not assault if the transport has moved at all, unless it is an assault vehicle.

Destroyed - explodes! only states that they are placed where their vehicle used to be, after suffering the hits. no where here, or anywhere else in the rules states that the unit can assault so it can not assault.

Can people not understand "... forced to disembark if their transport is destroyed." [it] means if their transport is destroyed they disembark, and as such can not assault unless it is an assault vehicle and they move 12" or less."

it means if their transport is destroyed by any means the unit inside is forced to disembark. thus they can not assault, even though disembark says they have to be placed within 2" of an access point, this is hard to do when everything is ripped to pieces. in this instance they do not follow the rules for normal disembarkation because this is a special circumstance. however they are still forced to disembark.

Plus a transport that moves disallows assaults in the same turn page 67. " if the vehicle has already moved, the passengers MAY disembark, but not move any further in that movement phase... these models may shoot (counting as moving), but may not assault",

there is no getting around it. to assault after a transport has moved would be breaking the rules.

DeathReaper wrote:there is no getting around it. to assault after a transport has moved would be breaking the rules.

Wrong. Assaulting after a transport moves is impossible BECAUSE YOU WOULD STILL BE ON THE TRANSPORT.

Assaulting after DISEMBARKING from a moving transport is nor permitted unless otherwise permitted.

"Destroyed - Explodes" does not cause the models to disembark.

How hard is that to understand?

Oh, well. It would be the smoldering remains of an a vehicle, so it doesn't really matter if it was an assault vehicle or not.

Either that, or it's a crater, in either case; the passengers would be shaken up and unable to have the spirit to assault anyway, from a realistic approach.

Samus_aran115 wrote:Oh, well. It would be the smoldering remains of an a vehicle, so it doesn't really matter if it was an assault vehicle or not.

Either that, or it's a crater, in either case; the passengers would be shaken up and unable to have the spirit to assault anyway, from a realistic approach.

From a realistic approach, the passengers would never be there, since they would just have nuked it from orbit.

disembarking...sounds to me if a transport explodes, and guys are forced to get out, they loose acsess to any special the vehicle had, upon it being destroyed. just like any other model that looses its special rules when its killed or destroyed. that said, i dont really see a problem with those termies assaulting, since they were going to do so anyway...meh. could go either way. when in doubt or cant decide just dice it, and houserule with the result.

Gwar! wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:there is no getting around it. to assault after a transport has moved would be breaking the rules.

Wrong. Assaulting after a transport moves is impossible BECAUSE YOU WOULD STILL BE ON THE TRANSPORT.

Assaulting after DISEMBARKING from a moving transport is nor permitted unless otherwise permitted.

"Destroyed - Explodes" does not cause the models to disembark.

How hard is that to understand?

so show me where it is "unless otherwise permitted." in the rules.

First the rules must declare that you can perform an action, for you to be able to perform said action.

if the rules do not say you can perform an action, you can not perform that action.

so show me where it says that you can assault out of a vehicle if it moves and gets exploded.

if you can not find it, then i am correct and the OP can not assault out of an exploded, non assault, vehicle.

hope this clears this issue up OP :-)

DeathReaper wrote:so show me where it says that you can assault out of a vehicle if it moves and gets exploded.

We have. SEVERAL TIMES.

Read the rules for making Assault Moves. That is your permission to assault.
Now Read the rules for transports. There is where you will find the rule that prevents you from assaulting after Disembarking.

So, a unit that has had its transport Explode now has permission to assault, and no restriction saying they cannot.

Thus, they can assault.

Some of you have gone off topic, and what most of you understand and dont understand is that we are talking about a LR with the assault rule.

The other thing of which you have to read up on is game turn. GW went back and changed things up with the whole your turn, my turn, and game turn.

On a 5 the vehicle is wrecked and the unit inside is forced to disembark. The assault rule allows for the unit that is disembarking to assault on the TURN in which they disembark. Thus the unit has the ability to assault because of the rulling on turn, and game turn. Notice this only applies to a roll of a five and only happens to one vehicle.

I guess you could say that while the vehicle is exploding the units charges head long out the front via the assault ramp into the enemies face.



Might be a six as its late and I have not read up on this in many months.

Gwar! wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:so show me where it says that you can assault out of a vehicle if it moves and gets exploded.

We have. SEVERAL TIMES.

Read the rules for making Assault Moves. That is your permission to assault.
Now Read the rules for transports. There is where you will find the rule that prevents you from assaulting after Disembarking.

So, a unit that has had its transport Explode now has permission to assault, and no restriction saying they cannot.

Thus, they can assault.

What page is that on, the assault section does not mention transports.

so we look at the transport vehicles section. P66/67

it states under embarking and disembarking "...forced to disembark if their vehicle is destroyed" (which includes wrecked and explodes) since destroyed - wrecked and destroyed - explodes are both destroyed results. then we must conclude that they disembark when their vehicle explodes. and as such can not assault.

under disembarking it states "if the vehicle has already moved the passengers may disembark, but may not move further...these models may shoot(Counts as moving), but may not assault." and since they have been forced to disembark they must follow this rule.

Therefore they can not assault if they were in a non assault vehicle transport that moved any distance.

That clear it up for you?

The assault section doesn't need to mention transports.

Any unit on the table can assault in the assault phase. You are given that permission from the assault section. The rules then go on to limit who can assault. The forbid you from assaulting if you ran in the shooting phase, shot rapid fire weapons, and stuff like that.

Now the transport section adds a further restriction. If the vehicle has moved and the models then disembark it removes the permission to assault in that assault phase.

Next we have the vehicle explodes result. It does not tell you to disembark your models. It tells you to place them on the table in the crater where their vehicle used to be. Since the models have not disembarked then they do not get the restriction of not being able to assault because that is a rule tied specifically to disembark.

The line you keep quoting is incomplete and the first half completely changes what you are quoting. "they may embark and then be forced to disembark..." This give a unit permission to disembark in a turn that it has previously embarked. This does not tell you that vehicles that you must disembark from destroyed vehicles.

That clear it up for you?

BrockRitcey wrote:The assault section doesn't need to mention transports.

Any unit on the table can assault in the assault phase. You are given that permission from the assault section. The rules then go on to limit who can assault. The forbid you from assaulting if you ran in the shooting phase, shot rapid fire weapons, and stuff like that.

Now the transport section adds a further restriction. If the vehicle has moved and the models then disembark it removes the permission to assault in that assault phase.

Next we have the vehicle explodes result. It does not tell you to disembark your models. It tells you to place them on the table in the crater where their vehicle used to be. Since the models have not disembarked then they do not get the restriction of not being able to assault because that is a rule tied specifically to disembark.

The line you keep quoting is incomplete and the first half completely changes what you are quoting. "they may embark and then be forced to disembark..." This give a unit permission to disembark in a turn that it has previously embarked. This does not tell you that vehicles that you must disembark from destroyed vehicles.

That clear it up for you?

if you are inside a transport and it explodes, by default you are forced to disembark from said transport.
the rules state this, why do people not understand?

since the Chaos land raider IS an assault vehicle troops inside may assault the turn it moves.

if it were a rhino or razorback it would be a different story.

You are incorrect, why can you not understand this?
You are unable to understand context and usage. One is Disembark, the other is disembark. One is the usage of the disembark rules, which NOONE ON EXPLODES FOLLOWS, the other is the general state of no longer being in a vehicle.

RAW: On an explodes result you may assault, even if the vehicle moved.