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G'Day folks, I've dragged my old Ork army out for a tournament and I just wanted some advice on how viable it still was compared to the new Tyranids, Blood Angels and Space Wolves.

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HQ 1 & 2 - 135 Pts ea (270 Pts)
Warboss
+Cybork Body, Power Klaw, Warbike
Tactics: These guys travel with their meatshields... I mean Warbikers, till they reach a tank or MC, they then break off and tear it to shreds and (if they survive) repeat as necessary.

Elites 1 - 160 Pts
Tankbustas (10-Man)
+Nob Upgrade, Tankhammers (2)
Tactics: Ride in the Wartrukk towards any tanks and later MCs, trying not to get shot to bits.

Troops 1 thru 4 - 140 Pts ea (560 Pts)
Shoota Boyz (20-Man)
+Big Shootas (2)
Tactics: Generic Ork Shoota Boyz - move, shoot, die; survivors move, shoot, die, etc; survivors move, shoot, assault.

Troops 5 - 125 Pts
Shoota Boyz (10-Man)
+Big Shoota
Wartrukk
+Armour Plates, Boarding Plank, Grot Riggers, Red Paint Job, Stikkbomb Chukka
Tactics: Shoota Boyz as above, with lower survival rates unless they use the larger mobs as protection; and Wartrukk transports Tankbusters.

Fast Attack 1 - 105 Pts
Warbuggies (3-Warbuggies)
+Twin-linked Rokkit Launchas (3)
Tactics: They focus on light armoured vehicles and MCs.

Fast Attack 2 & 3 - 135 Pts ea (270 Pts)
Warbikers (5-Warbikers)
+Nob Upgrade
Tactics: Serve as protection for the Warbosses, outflank and shoot at whatever other infantry needs thinning out.

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Any advice would be greatly appreciated...

Cheers
Rowan/LSWSjr

Firstly I don't see the point in two Warbosses. Best taking a Big Mek with KFF and give those vehicles a cover save.

Tankbustas cannot have a Trukk unless you've got it as dedicated transport from some Boyz, but the Tankbustas cannot start within it.

20 Boyz don't need big shootas as got enough fire power already. Throw them in Battlewagons and then they won't die.

10 Boyz unit is a waste of time. Not only they cannot have grenade launchers and vox (I think you're getting confused with IG!) but the Trukk is paper thin, solo unit besides Tankbustas and a small 6+ unit inside.

Don't expect 5 Warbikers to last a huge amount of time. They also cannot outflank, though I guess you mean just flank a target from the sides.

You need to get your list sorted and decide if on foot or vehicles, not a mix. And definately get a Big Mek in as it will give your troops and vehicles a much longer life.

mercer wrote:Firstly I don't see the point in two Warbosses. Best taking a Big Mek with KFF and give those vehicles a cover save.

Each Warboss is there because they're almost perfect tank and MC killers, inflicting up to five S10 hits (or S11 hits on vehicles) when they charge.

mercer wrote:Tankbustas cannot have a Trukk unless you've got it as dedicated transport from some Boyz, but the Tankbustas cannot start within it.

As it mentions, they get the Wartrukk from Troops 5, which is a Dedicated Transport for that unit.

mercer wrote:20 Boyz don't need big shootas as got enough fire power already. Throw them in Battlewagons and then they won't die.

For 10 Pts a Mob I'm trading four 18" S4 AP6 shots for six 36" S5 AP5 shots, which means they can start shooting at the enemy sooner, plus they're stronger shots which are great Eldar/Guard killers.

mercer wrote:10 Boyz unit is a waste of time. Not only they cannot have grenade launchers and vox (I think you're getting confused with IG!) but the Trukk is paper thin, solo unit besides Tankbustas and a small 6+ unit inside.

Fixed the GL/Vox thing, it was because I was using the format I'd posted a IG list with earlier and hadn't changed that to say Big Shoota :( The Wartrukk is a weak hunk o' crap, but I need it to stop people luring my Tankbustas into traps by waving rhinos and other cheap vehicles in their faces to keep them from their targets, the Tankbusters can't get distracted when they're hurtling along on the back of the Wartrukk.

mercer wrote:Don't expect 5 Warbikers to last a huge amount of time. They also cannot outflank, though I guess you mean just flank a target from the sides.

The Warbikers are only really there as a cheap meatshield for the Warbosses to ensure they reach their targets, they excel at this thanks to their okay armour saves and cover saves.

mercer wrote:You need to get your list sorted and decide if on foot or vehicles, not a mix. And definately get a Big Mek in as it will give your troops and vehicles a much longer life.

The thing is that I've always found Orks to be great footsloggers, however they can be brought down by long ranged vehicles, that's why the army was structured like that. There's a core of 90 Shoota Boys making their way forward on foot, whilst the faster anti-tank units eliminate the things that'll whittle them down, because their chances of survival are even better the less threats they have to deal with when they finally reach the enemy and when leading up to that point.

Cheers
Rowan/LSWSjr

LSWSjr wrote:

mercer wrote:Firstly I don't see the point in two Warbosses. Best taking a Big Mek with KFF and give those vehicles a cover save.

Each Warboss is there because they're almost perfect tank and MC killers, inflicting up to five S10 hits (or S11 hits on vehicles) when they charge.

You can actually get six attacks on the charge, but your plan is to use a single model as anti tank? That's two anti tank units with support. Not good. You should focus on models which benefit or provide for the army. At the moment the Warboss is doing the work and needs Bikers to protect which don't do a lot. Some Lootas with long range fire would be a lot lot better.

mercer wrote:Tankbustas cannot have a Trukk unless you've got it as dedicated transport from some Boyz, but the Tankbustas cannot start within it.

As it mentions, they get the Wartrukk from Troops 5, which is a Dedicated Transport for that unit.

Cool. Though I did say unless it's taken from a Boyz unit

mercer wrote:20 Boyz don't need big shootas as got enough fire power already. Throw them in Battlewagons and then they won't die.

For 10 Pts a Mob I'm trading four 18" S4 AP6 shots for six 36" S5 AP5 shots, which means they can start shooting at the enemy sooner, plus they're stronger shots which are great Eldar/Guard killers.

They are not adding anything to the unit. You're getting a few extra shots and a little more range, with that range you're getting 6 shots at BS2 which isn't a lot. Guard and Eldar are T3 so S4 wounds on a 3+ so still ok. My point is you've got enough fire power and those extra shots and that little bit of extra range isn't adding anything to the unit at all.

mercer wrote:10 Boyz unit is a waste of time. Not only they cannot have grenade launchers and vox (I think you're getting confused with IG!) but the Trukk is paper thin, solo unit besides Tankbustas and a small 6+ unit inside.

Fixed the GL/Vox thing, it was because I was using the format I'd posted a IG list with earlier and hadn't changed that to say Big Shoota :( The Wartrukk is a weak hunk o' crap, but I need it to stop people luring my Tankbustas into traps by waving rhinos and other cheap vehicles in their faces to keep them from their targets, the Tankbusters can't get distracted when they're hurtling along on the back of the Wartrukk.

So if the Tankbustas are having this units Trukk you've got 10 Orks on foot - not good. Increase the numbers to match the others.

mercer wrote:Don't expect 5 Warbikers to last a huge amount of time. They also cannot outflank, though I guess you mean just flank a target from the sides.

The Warbikers are only really there as a cheap meatshield for the Warbosses to ensure they reach their targets, they excel at this thanks to their okay armour saves and cover saves.

You're wasting points doing that. How much are Bikers? 25 points? They cannot do the same role as the Warboss, and the Warboss will be picked off when going slow plus can only tackle one tank at a time. They don't really excel at all because 4+ cover and 4+ armour means they still can be taken out and you haven't got the numbers to asborb the wounds.

mercer wrote:You need to get your list sorted and decide if on foot or vehicles, not a mix. And definately get a Big Mek in as it will give your troops and vehicles a much longer life.

The thing is that I've always found Orks to be great footsloggers, however they can be brought down by long ranged vehicles, that's why the army was structured like that. There's a core of 90 Shoota Boys making their way forward on foot, whilst the faster anti-tank units eliminate the things that'll whittle them down, because their chances of survival are even better the less threats they have to deal with when they finally reach the enemy and when leading up to that point.

Cheers
Rowan/LSWSjr

Orks aren't exactly good foot sloggers and especially in this list. They don't have fleet full time, only once so you need to make it count. You then don't have a KFF for cover so your Orks will die, rapidly. You should get a Big Mek as previously mentioned and consider Grots or Kanz to put in front of them. Due to your mobile units the opponent can focus fire on these, you've got a single Trukk which is like paper and then two Biker units, focus fire until they've gone and you've got no threats to mech armies and the rest of your army rolls up and cannot do a lot. Armies which come in waves can be picked off easily, especially when the attacking waves are small like this.

i agree with mercer, when playing with orks its all or nothing. mixing themes will only give ur opponent more time to blow you up piecemeal, which is the best way to beat orks.

also, i find it hard to imagine 2 warbosses getting along while 1 warboss and a mek would make more sense
What im trying to say is that you cant split the army up, iven if ur just trying to support the main horde.

How do you inflict s11 on vehicles? just curious.

S11 hits on vehicles is interesting...

Solbo wrote:How do you inflict s11 on vehicles? just curious.

Normally Strength can't go above 10, there's no mechanical benefit to do so anyway... except when it's going to be used to penetrate vehicle armour.

The Warbosses have a Strength of 5 normally, then they double that for the Power Klaws, then on the turn they assault the tank they use their Furious Charge which is another +1 to Strength (remember the rules say double stats before including other modifiers). This ultimately adds up to 11, but only applies for Armour Penetration rolls, not infantry based combat (which caps at 10).

mercer wrote:So if the Tankbustas are having this units Trukk you've got 10 Orks on foot - not good. Increase the numbers to match the others.

The most I can increase it to is 12, only Boys Mobs of 12 or less can take a Wartrukk, whilst on the topic of Ork Boys, if I did remove the 9 Big Shootas, what would I spend less than 50 Pts on?

mercer wrote:They don't really excel at all because 4+ cover and 4+ armour means they still can be taken out and you haven't got the numbers to asborb the wounds.

mercer wrote:You need to get your list sorted and decide if on foot or vehicles, not a mix. And definately get a Big Mek in as it will give your troops and vehicles a much longer life.

You realise saying the 4+ Cover Saves on the bikes is bad, whilst suggesting the one or two units that'll benefit from the Big Mek w/ KFF (85 Pts) 5+ Cover Save is good, is kinda silly. Seriously the KFF has a range of 6", the only way you could do anything amazing with that is if you had the Big Mek at the front of a joined Mob, then had two crushed together mobs which remained close knit within 6" of the Big Mek, honestly it's like asking for Large Blast template tanks to not even bother rolling to scatter, "Yeah no matter how far it goes, you'll still hit 10 or so Orks, just roll to wound already.

That said I understand the each combo of a Warboss and Bike Squad isn't the most efficient, heck it's 270 Pts each for just six models, however Orks have very little that can deal with Land Raiders, Monoliths and other AV14 stuff. Generally they catch the opponent by surprise, turbo-boosting along in the first and sometimes second turn (24" and a 3+ Cover Save), then hopefully their two targets will be within 18" for the Warbosses to assault them, generally hitting automatically (on the Ordnance ones) or on a 4+, then with S11 all light vehicles are instant glance/pen or pen on 1, medium vehicles are glance on 1/2 and pen on 2/3 and heavy vehicles are glance on 3 and pen of 4+.

Compare that to what any other Ork unit/weapon can do and the closest are the Zzap Gun and Shokk Attack Gun, both of which have a random change of rolling 10+ on 2D6, which either carries penalties with Zzap Guns or some minor awesomeness with a Shokk Attack Gun, but remember both rely on crappy BS and have only 33% change of reaching S9, the minimum you'll need to pen AV14. Ultimately the problem (or perhaps the balance mechanic) with the Orks is they lack the S9 and S10 weapons required to deal with heavy armour and even their specialist tank hunters are weakened by being somewhat hard to control on the battlefield, although a paper thin but very fast transport helps greatly.


Cheers
Rowan/LSWSjr


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just thought I'd address some of your other comments, many of which go back to my previous post.

mercer wrote:You can actually get six attacks on the charge, but your plan is to use a single model as anti tank? That's two anti tank units with support. Not good. You should focus on models which benefit or provide for the army. At the moment the Warboss is doing the work and needs Bikers to protect which don't do a lot. Some Lootas with long range fire would be a lot lot better.

The two Warbosses will only get 5 Attacks on the charge, 4 from Stats, 1 from Charging, they won't get one from 2 CCWs because one is a Power Fist. Also Lootas can only glance AV13 on a 6, so no good at all, especially against AV14.

mercer wrote:They are not adding anything to the unit. You're getting a few extra shots and a little more range, with that range you're getting 6 shots at BS2 which isn't a lot. Guard and Eldar are T3 so S4 wounds on a 3+ so still ok. My point is you've got enough fire power and those extra shots and that little bit of extra range isn't adding anything to the unit at all.

For 9 Big Shootas, assume 1/3 (33%) hit the target (hit on 5 or 6), then 5/6 (83%) of those wound (S5 vs T3 wounds on 2+), now most Eldar/IG won't get an Armour Save due to the AP (AP5 beats 5+ Armour Saves) so they will be killed instantly (barring some outside factor), that means I should get between 7-8 kills. By the statistics, out of 9 weapons I get 7 or 8 kills a turn at 36".
Now for 9 Shootas, again 1/3 hit, then 2/3 (66%) of those wound (S4 vs T3 wounds on 3+), their Armour Save has a 2/3 chance (save on 5 or 6). By the statistics, out of 9 weapons I get 1.3 kills a turn at 18".
So by spending 45 Pts I've doubled the effective range and statistically increased my kills of Eldar/Guard/Gaunts by 6-7 for those 9 Ork Boys.

mercer wrote:Orks aren't exactly good foot sloggers and especially in this list. They don't have fleet full time, only once so you need to make it count. You then don't have a KFF for cover so your Orks will die, rapidly. You should get a Big Mek as previously mentioned and consider Grots or Kanz to put in front of them. Due to your mobile units the opponent can focus fire on these, you've got a single Trukk which is like paper and then two Biker units, focus fire until they've gone and you've got no threats to mech armies and the rest of your army rolls up and cannot do a lot. Armies which come in waves can be picked off easily, especially when the attacking waves are small like this.

There are a few problems I have with this comment, I'm mentioned how to get the most out of the Big Meks mighty 5+ Cover Save, you need to mash everyone together, which is just great for opponents to focus fire on with templates. Then you suggest making either an equally large screen of Grots, which themselves take up over half as many points as the Orks they're providing a 4+ Cover Save for (why did I need the Big Mek's 5+ Cover Save again?), not to mention taking up taken Troops slots; or shield them with 1-3 squads of 1-3 cheapish lightly armoured walkers, who'd be wiped out before they reached the enemy and be even less useful in providing long term cover than the Big Mek.
In terms of my fast movers, there are four separate units, two Tank Killing Warbosses w/ 5 Warbikers (including Nob) each, a squad of 3 Warbuggies w/ Twin-linked Rokkit Launchas (good for light armour or MCs) and the 'paper thin' Wartrukk full of Tankbustas who provided they get into range are good against MCs and varying levels of armour (depending on assault or ranged). These 4 units are usually split to the sides of the enemy's army and move to flank whilst the 5 Shoota Boys Mobs advance directly forward, this forces the opponent to have to share/split focus on three different fronts split into 9 units, if they focus fire on one front, they are more vulnerable to attacks from the other two fronts, that's what I originally meant by outflanking (rather than the rule of the same name). They won't have as easy a time as you might suggest.


Cheers
Rowan/LSWSjr

Pg 6 BRB, Characteristics - However, no modifier may raise any characteristic above 10...

No STR11 for you!

Arakasi wrote:Pg 6 BRB, Characteristics - However, no modifier may raise any characteristic above 10...

No STR11 for you!

Actually I jusy checked the vehicle section myself, it's D6 +Model's Strength, no references to other modifiers being added, that's most likely why Chainfists, Melta-weapons and others like that simply for 2D6 rather than getting a bonus to Strength.

Oh well perhaps it was something I did under 4th, but I doubt it was legit there either, but hey that's why I'm here with this list.


Cheers
Rowan/LSWSjr

LSWSjr wrote:

mercer wrote:So if the Tankbustas are having this units Trukk you've got 10 Orks on foot - not good. Increase the numbers to match the others.

The most I can increase it to is 12, only Boys Mobs of 12 or less can take a Wartrukk, whilst on the topic of Ork Boys, if I did remove the 9 Big Shootas, what would I spend less than 50 Pts on?

50 points goes into the mob of 12 Boyz. That will give you another 8.3 Boyz which makes it 20, you may have points spare for a Nob with power klaw and bosspole which is needed, that's if the Nob isn't included anyway. My point is 12 Boyz won't last long.

mercer wrote:They don't really excel at all because 4+ cover and 4+ armour means they still can be taken out and you haven't got the numbers to asborb the wounds.

mercer wrote:You need to get your list sorted and decide if on foot or vehicles, not a mix. And definately get a Big Mek in as it will give your troops and vehicles a much longer life.

You realise saying the 4+ Cover Saves on the bikes is bad, whilst suggesting the one or two units that'll benefit from the Big Mek w/ KFF (85 Pts) 5+ Cover Save is good, is kinda silly. Seriously the KFF has a range of 6", the only way you could do anything amazing with that is if you had the Big Mek at the front of a joined Mob, then had two crushed together mobs which remained close knit within 6" of the Big Mek, honestly it's like asking for Large Blast template tanks to not even bother rolling to scatter, "Yeah no matter how far it goes, you'll still hit 10 or so Orks, just roll to wound already.

I didn't actually say 4+ cover save is bad. I said they are only 4+ cover and armour saves so not hard to take out and you haven't got the numbers to asborb the damage.

You get Killa Kanz (which I may have suggested) which get 4+ cover from KFF and give the Boyz 4+ cover, or you get Grots which get 5+ cover from KFF and give the Boyz 4+ cover.

I know the range of the KFF, I do play Orks

That said I understand the each combo of a Warboss and Bike Squad isn't the most efficient, heck it's 270 Pts each for just six models, however Orks have very little that can deal with Land Raiders, Monoliths and other AV14 stuff. Generally they catch the opponent by surprise, turbo-boosting along in the first and sometimes second turn (24" and a 3+ Cover Save), then hopefully their two targets will be within 18" for the Warbosses to assault them, generally hitting automatically (on the Ordnance ones) or on a 4+, then with S11 all light vehicles are instant glance/pen or pen on 1, medium vehicles are glance on 1/2 and pen on 2/3 and heavy vehicles are glance on 3 and pen of 4+.

A Warboss cannot deal with armour 14 well either, needs a 5+ to penetrate. You said your self, 270 points for six models is waste of points. Any clued up player won't be caught by surprise as Bikes are general rules so it's rules knowledge that they can turbo boost 24".

mercer wrote:You can actually get six attacks on the charge, but your plan is to use a single model as anti tank? That's two anti tank units with support. Not good. You should focus on models which benefit or provide for the army. At the moment the Warboss is doing the work and needs Bikers to protect which don't do a lot. Some Lootas with long range fire would be a lot lot better.

The two Warbosses will only get 5 Attacks on the charge, 4 from Stats, 1 from Charging, they won't get one from 2 CCWs because one is a Power Fist. Also Lootas can only glance AV13 on a 6, so no good at all, especially against AV14.

Six attacks with a attack squig, perhaps should have said that

I know what Lootas do You missed my point. You have no long range anti tank and using two Warbosses for up close anti tank in small units costing a lot of points. Kill those units and the Warbosses what you going to do then?

mercer wrote:They are not adding anything to the unit. You're getting a few extra shots and a little more range, with that range you're getting 6 shots at BS2 which isn't a lot. Guard and Eldar are T3 so S4 wounds on a 3+ so still ok. My point is you've got enough fire power and those extra shots and that little bit of extra range isn't adding anything to the unit at all.

For 9 Big Shootas, assume 1/3 (33%) hit the target (hit on 5 or 6), then 5/6 (83%) of those wound (S5 vs T3 wounds on 2+), now most Eldar/IG won't get an Armour Save due to the AP (AP5 beats 5+ Armour Saves) so they will be killed instantly (barring some outside factor), that means I should get between 7-8 kills. By the statistics, out of 9 weapons I get 7 or 8 kills a turn at 36".
Now for 9 Shootas, again 1/3 hit, then 2/3 (66%) of those wound (S4 vs T3 wounds on 3+), their Armour Save has a 2/3 chance (save on 5 or 6). By the statistics, out of 9 weapons I get 1.3 kills a turn at 18".
So by spending 45 Pts I've doubled the effective range and statistically increased my kills of Eldar/Guard/Gaunts by 6-7 for those 9 Ork Boys.

You probably won't hit 1 in 3 big shoota shots. It's probably more 1 in 4. Thanks the rules knowledge as well, I do now how to play 40k . You won't get 7-8 kills a turn, trust me I've used big shootas, they do very little.

mercer wrote:Orks aren't exactly good foot sloggers and especially in this list. They don't have fleet full time, only once so you need to make it count. You then don't have a KFF for cover so your Orks will die, rapidly. You should get a Big Mek as previously mentioned and consider Grots or Kanz to put in front of them. Due to your mobile units the opponent can focus fire on these, you've got a single Trukk which is like paper and then two Biker units, focus fire until they've gone and you've got no threats to mech armies and the rest of your army rolls up and cannot do a lot. Armies which come in waves can be picked off easily, especially when the attacking waves are small like this.

There are a few problems I have with this comment, I'm mentioned how to get the most out of the Big Meks mighty 5+ Cover Save, you need to mash everyone together, which is just great for opponents to focus fire on with templates. Then you suggest making either an equally large screen of Grots, which themselves take up over half as many points as the Orks they're providing a 4+ Cover Save for (why did I need the Big Mek's 5+ Cover Save again?), not to mention taking up taken Troops slots; or shield them with 1-3 squads of 1-3 cheapish lightly armoured walkers, who'd be wiped out before they reached the enemy and be even less useful in providing long term cover than the Big Mek.
In terms of my fast movers, there are four separate units, two Tank Killing Warbosses w/ 5 Warbikers (including Nob) each, a squad of 3 Warbuggies w/ Twin-linked Rokkit Launchas (good for light armour or MCs) and the 'paper thin' Wartrukk full of Tankbustas who provided they get into range are good against MCs and varying levels of armour (depending on assault or ranged). These 4 units are usually split to the sides of the enemy's army and move to flank whilst the 5 Shoota Boys Mobs advance directly forward, this forces the opponent to have to share/split focus on three different fronts split into 9 units, if they focus fire on one front, they are more vulnerable to attacks from the other two fronts, that's what I originally meant by outflanking (rather than the rule of the same name). They won't have as easy a time as you might suggest. [q/uote]

I've mentioned how to get even better out of the KFF with 4+ cover, I thought I mentioned about Kanz and Grots.

Grots don't take up that many points; they are 3 points each.

Killa Kanz have 4+ cover save as mentioned; better than 5+

Yeah those units will be ahead of the KFF and get no protection from cover saves, they are weak and will go down. Target priority is easy to disable those units. They will have a easy time because it's not hard to pop armour 10 especially when in a squadron.

TBH I think I'm wasting my time. Your list is all over the place. You haven't played with Orks for sometime as you said they are old, I know the ins and outs of Orks so I'm giving you sound advice. If you want a 5+ cover save from your KFF then fine, you want to interweave units then cool. You want weak tank busting units speeding ahead without any defence then go for it.

Good luck at your tournament because this list will need it. Two massive point sink Biker units which just take wounds, a single unit of Tankbustas in a Trukk taken from a mob of small Boyz on foot and some Warbuggies - without KFF they will fail!

Not to sound rude but perhaps you should listen to what I am saying and take on board my comments and have a good look at this army list instead of being so patronising instead?


Cheers
Rowan/LSWSjr

This is starting to get a bit heated, which I don't really want, so I'll just ask how would you do this army and (if possible) could you post it in an army list format?

Two things however I will mention about your last post though is you didn't address what to do to keep the Tankbustas in line if you got rid of their transport (by increasing that squad of Shoota Boys to 20). Also how would you position all the squads to get the most benefit out of the KFF?

Cheers
Rowan/LSWSjr

KFF is decent support for infantry but it's real power is in giving cover to vehicles for 2 reasons. It's a 4+ rather than a 5+, and it's a lot easier to fit more units into the KFF for vehicles.
You can easily give 2 three man squads of killa kans a 4+ save since just one of them has to be within the 6". Now those can be a major pain to blow through.

If you go mechanized one big mek can give a block of vehicles all cover. In one such list you might have 2 battlewagons right next to each other with the KFF in one. BWs are thin enough so that you can have a trukk or wagon
on the opposite side from the KFF wagon still within 6". Then you have another vehicle on the close side and again can have a 2nd past that still fit. That's a line of 5 vehicles all with obscured and not to mention any trukks coming up behind that will be within the KFF, and get a normal cover save from the vehicles in front either way. That's how I would KFF to the most benefit.

On another point, since your list isn't using any heavy support, I would put forth the idea of using a bare bones looted wagon with just 1 BS or something to avoid weapons destroyed and then w/e you'd put on a trukk normally.
That way the tankbusters can start inside the looted wagon and it's 11 armour instead of 10. The only downside is you lose fast. You might find losing that too much but it's not hard to do w/o in this case. It's up to you.

LSWSjr wrote:This is starting to get a bit heated, which I don't really want, so I'll just ask how would you do this army and (if possible) could you post it in an army list format?

Two things however I will mention about your last post though is you didn't address what to do to keep the Tankbustas in line if you got rid of their transport (by increasing that squad of Shoota Boys to 20). Also how would you position all the squads to get the most benefit out of the KFF?

Cheers
Rowan/LSWSjr

I can do that for you no problem at all It's just I do not feel you listening to me and making a defense against my suggestions - why ask for feedback if not listen? Anyway, I'll cook something up for you

LSWSjr wrote:
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HQ 1 & 2 - 135 Pts ea (270 Pts)
Warboss
+Cybork Body, Power Klaw, Warbike
Tactics: These guys travel with their meatshields... I mean Warbikers, till they reach a tank or MC, they then break off and tear it to shreds and (if they survive) repeat as necessary.

Elites 1 - 160 Pts
Tankbustas (10-Man)
+Nob Upgrade, Tankhammers (2)
Tactics: Ride in the Wartrukk towards any tanks and later MCs, trying not to get shot to bits.

Troops 1 thru 4 - 140 Pts ea (560 Pts)
Shoota Boyz (20-Man)
+Big Shootas (2)
Tactics: Generic Ork Shoota Boyz - move, shoot, die; survivors move, shoot, die, etc; survivors move, shoot, assault.

Troops 5 - 125 Pts
Shoota Boyz (10-Man)
+Big Shoota
Wartrukk
+Armour Plates, Boarding Plank, Grot Riggers, Red Paint Job, Stikkbomb Chukka
Tactics: Shoota Boyz as above, with lower survival rates unless they use the larger mobs as protection; and Wartrukk transports Tankbusters.

Fast Attack 1 - 105 Pts
Warbuggies (3-Warbuggies)
+Twin-linked Rokkit Launchas (3)
Tactics: They focus on light armoured vehicles and MCs.

Fast Attack 2 & 3 - 135 Pts ea (270 Pts)
Warbikers (5-Warbikers)
+Nob Upgrade
Tactics: Serve as protection for the Warbosses, outflank and shoot at whatever other infantry needs thinning out.

Ok Rowan a list for you as requested

So the above is what I have to work with. There's two ways I can go about this, all foot or all vehicle. Either way it's not going to have everything you want it, but I think I can get sorted.

So for a first list I'll do mech as that's what I like the most. Firstly need a HQ, Big Mek with KFF is undoubtedly needed here. Then need some troops, you've got 4 x 20 Orks which I'll go with, minus the big shootas and a squad. Now we need some anti tank, I cannot use Tankbustas because 1. Have no transport and 2. Not that hot. So, I'll use what's available which is Warbuggies and then sprinkle with some Lootas for long range anti tank and anti infantry.

Now I've got the "components" of the list lets string it out:

HQ

Big Mek - KFF

Elite

7 x Lootas

7 x Lootas

Troops

20 x Orks - Nob w/ power klaw & bosspole

20 x Orks - Nob w/ power klaw & bosspole

20 x Orks - Nob w/ power klaw & bosspole

Fast Attack

1 x Warbuggy - twin-linked rokkits

1 x Warbuggy - twin-linked rokkits

1 x Warbuggy - twin-linked rokkits

Heavy Support

Battlewagon - big shoota, boarding plank & RPJ

Battlewagon - big shoota, boarding plank & RPJ

Battlewagon - big shoota, boarding plank & RPJ

I haven't check points on this (or the other list) so you'll have to do that but I'm pretty sure it's bang on.

What we have now is a much better solid and cohesive force. Haven't got any suicide delivery Warbikers shooting off or single Trukks to be targetted while the remains ramble behind. What this list does is keep pace and deilver it's entire bulk at the same time, or majority of it. You've got a Big Mek giving those vehicles a 4+ cover which means opponents need to crack a tough transport with cover to tackle the Boyz which still have cover compared to Boyz on foot with just cover saves, add in they can move faster too! With a waaagh! they can have a assault range of 26"!

You have Lootas for long range anti tank fire or infantry so you can put the pressure on first round. You've got Warbuggies which can deliver anti tank and the Boyz have boarding planks on those Wagons so they do not have to get out to smash in a tank.

Ok so moving onto the second list.

Again HQ choice is a Big Mek for KFF support. I'll take the 4 x 20 Boyz this time, but with rokkits. I'll take Lootas too, excellent for anti infantry and tank busting. Al that remains now is some kind of shield, can go Grots for cheapness or Killa Kanz. I'll go Kanz because more anti tank and Grots get whooped. Lets look:

HQ

Big Mek - KFF

Elite

7 x Lootas

7 x Lootas

Troops

20 x Boyz - 2 x rokkits - Nob w/ power klaw & bosspole

20 x Boyz - 2 x rokkits - Nob w/ power klaw & bosspole

20 x Boyz - 2 x rokkits - Nob w/ power klaw & bosspole

20 x Boyz - 2 x rokkits - Nob w/ power klaw & bosspole

Heavy Support

3 x Killa Kanz - 3 x rokkits

3 x Killa Kanz - 3 x rokkits

3 x Killa Kanz - 3 x rokkits

Ok so this list is on foot which is going to be slower and no armour protection. Kanz go in front Boyz behind and everything then gets 4+ cover save. Got Lootas for anti tank, Kanz for anti tank and combat and Boyz have limited anti tank too with those rokkits - remember you can pop a transport and assault the survivors with the same unit

Problems with this list is it's slow. Also remove the Kanz (which isn't hard) and it's 5+ cover save, but you had 5+ cover anyway.

You'll notice that Warbikers and Tankbustas are missing from both lists. Why? It's because they do not fit a foot list, Tankbustas on foot are destined to die and in a mech list the Warbikers will surge off and not do a lot really - they are just a sacrifice delivery unit for the Warboss. Though, if you wanted a list using those models you could do something like this:

HQ

Wazdakka

Elite

10 x Tankbustas

10 x Tankbustas

10 x Tankbustas

Troops

8 x Warbikers - Nob w/ power klaw & bosspole

8 x Warbikers - Nob w/ power klaw & bosspole

8 x Warbikers - Nob w/ power klaw & bosspole

Heavy Support

Looted Wagon - big shoota

Looted Wagon - big shoota

Looted Wagon - big shoota

Hope that helps and hopefully we'll be on the same page now