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Okay, maybe it is just me, but it really drives me nuts when people who aren't involved in your game but are just watching want to interrupt your game by arguing that a move you did or an action you performed wasnt legal or played correctly even though it was correctly played. I had assaulted a unit that the majority of models weren't in cover and I didn't have to take a difficult terrain test in order to get into assault with them. I moved closest to closest and got as many models as I could into base contact. But because the assaulted unit had to move a few models through difficult terrain for their pile in moves, the non-player wanted to argue that since they were in cover then I had to strike at initiative one, which isn't what the rules say. This interrupted an otherwise fun game for a few minutes with him totally disagreeing with me and just ended up saying "It's not my game, but I think that is wrong" or something to that effect.

Anywho, so how often does this happen to you and how have you handled the situation?

There is an extent to which I'll listen to non-gamers during a game. I am in no way a power gamer, I am still learning the rules. But unless my opponent says "Oh yeah, I forgot about that rule" I'll continue to play and look the rule up later with my opponent to see if we played it right. IIRC, you are right in the defenders can move through difficult terrain but don't benefit from cover unless the models you made contact with are in there.

Most of the times, people just watch and unless you invite them to, they don't make comments. In vassal, I usually ask spectators not to make comments and they usually comply

If playing in RL and somebody makes comments... its usually as easy as saying "thanks for the input, but we prefer no comments made". And if he insists, just repeat the above

I've been the person doing the interrupting before, when I know someone is playing something wrong, intentionally or otherwise. The supposed "veteran" teaching the newb got all bent out of shape about it that someone pointed out how he was cheating the newb just to win a game. Course, I spend a lot of time teaching people how to play, trying to get them involved in the game, so someone that tries to take advantage of new players tends to piss me off.

But yeah, I'll agree that most of the time spectators should just spectate.

I was playing a wood elf army that was geared to fight and a spectator came up got all bug eyed and said I didn't know how to play wood elves. I replied that I didn't care how he played them and continued palying. He muttered, "That's not how you play them" for a few minutes and finally left when I lost my patience and told him to take a hike.

Agreed: if you see someone taking advantage of a newb, its normal to "step in". If the neb tells you to shut up...

I'm still in my learning curve, and when I want people to make comments, I ask for that at the beggining of the game.

@tanhausen. Yep. If it's apparently a friendly game, couple of newer players having fun, and I notice something I think is incorrect, I'll ask if they mind me making a comment. If they say no, I butt out. Course, it's been a while since I've played anywhere other than our club or tournies. Course, our club night at the store I go to is usually 20+ players, and we're always recruiting. Club has around 90 paid members at four locations....................

don_mondo wrote:The supposed "veteran" teaching the newb got all bent out of shape about it that someone pointed out how he was cheating the newb just to win a game. Course, I spend a lot of time teaching people how to play, trying to get them involved in the game, so someone that tries to take advantage of new players tends to piss me off.

I can agree with you there. It is a little different when a "vet" is trying to pull one over on a "newb" who doesn't know the rules that well. But other than that, I think spectators should just spectate and ask questions, and not accusations, once the game is over. Like in my scenario, it would have been fine if the non-player would have asked after the game was over "Shouldn't the Fiends have struck last since the gaunts were in cover?" Then we could have discussed the rules covering it instead of interrupting a game, and at which point I would have pointed out the rules about only if you assault through difficult terrain do you suffer the penalties. Now, he could have continued to disagree, but at least the game wouldn't have been so rudely interrupted.

I do not mind interruptions from speculators generally if they are offering a misconception to the rules. While i'm a pretty seasoned veteran in fantasy, i'm pretty sure all fantasy players are blundering their way through 8th at the present moment With 40k, I took a 3-4 year break, and really i'm re-learning some things, again no issues.

My only problem with spectators and interruptions is when they like to pick up models and put them down without asking. I also dislike the asking about whats in my list, why I am doing something, and trying to overall "theory hammer" during a game. I do not mind doing this stuff aware from the game, before-after-during a break. However, if my opponent and I are in the middle of a magic phase. I a spectator is asking about my wargear, why I like certain spells. I'm likely to politely ask them to ask later.

One major exception: GT level play. I love Showcase Comics, and i'm sure Mihaila's going to see this. There are several players there that like to give "friendly" advise to their club mates during game. I cannot tell you have much that pisses me off. Numerous time, i've had the "make sure to target his screaming bell" or "hold on your scroll until the big spells." This is the one thing that bothers me so much about spectators at GT's. But offering tactical advise at a GT is a massive no-no to me. I take it in stride as I like Showcase, and usually I give a look at the person, and their club mate who is playing 99% looks at the guy and says "are you serious, wtf are you doing, get the heck out of here, respect people's opponents." Its usually the younger guys that interrupt

Interruptions ? spectators ?

Smack in the gob often offends.

On the point however I am very prone to using armys "not as intended"

Which seems to irk a few people watching with the aformentioned "thats not how you do it"

Debates about rulings with the "non-player" ? URK !!

However given my age and bulk , I tend to lean in close to the ear of the mouth jabbering and whisper

"feth off or ill kill you"

Tends to work for me , however its not the best way!

Ok steping aside from the ,we all want to be helpful and talk the game up to others it is after all a game/match/event.

I see it as rude and disrespectful to interupt players while they are thinking and planning moves and die rolling.

You are TFG if you do.

Spectators are welcome. If a rules question arises that isn't easily answered between us, we'll ask for a third opinion.

In terms of people butting in:

1. I know the rules pretty darn well. I don't know everyone elses' codex perfectly, so its always a case of spectator questioning opponent's move.
2. If someone butts in asking about one of my codex rules, I say "Blah blah blah is the rule, you can borrow my codex to look it up if you like.

3. Most importantly, if someone butts in to make an unasked for rules call and they're wrong....I'll say, "You're mistaken on the rule. (Or I'll say, "I'm pretty sure you're mistaken on the rule.) I don't want to interrupt our game because I'm pretty sure that I'm right, but here's the rulebook - find the relevant section and if you prove me wrong we'll sort it out."

I'm bad enough with giving my opponents tactical advice against me... the last thing I need is other people helping them have a chance at beating me!

I normally wait until after the point in question if I want to raise something. Today I watched a Slaanesh player lash something that I thought would have been better lashed in another direction. I mentioned it to him during the opponent's following movement phase. I also pointed out that he shouldn't have allocated wounds to an independent character in a combat where no targets were actually declared by the attacker... but this was an oversight on both players' parts, but since everyone passed their saves it was of little consequence, and didn't interrupt the flow of play.

There's a guy at my new local store who keeps 'reminding' me of incorrect or non-existent rules in my codexes... I'm a pretty patient guy, but sooner or later I'm going to have to point out to him that he has been wrong pretty much every time. I could put up with it, but he has also started 'correctly' bringing up really obvious rules that have no bearing on the situation in play. It's just a pain in the arse.

As an above poster, I've taken a couple years out from 40k, so I'm not 100% on the rules.

I guess we can say there are 2 scenarios:

- Friendly game: chit chat is fine, spectators can ask if they can make comments and if they make one and are told to shut up, they should (and most do).

- Tournament: if someone walks up to my table and gets into rules without anybody asking him, I'll just invite them to talk to the ref xDD

And I agree: I HATE it when people give tactical advice, doens't matter if its to me or the opponent.

I hate to generalize, but this hobby does somewhat bring out people who are moderately socially inept, to the point of doing stuff like this. Not saying we're all like that, obviously, but I have met a disproportionate amount that are, compared with my other 'social' activities. I'm not sure if they think they're genuinely being helpful or if they're just attempting to communicate meaningfully about something they enjoy. It's annoying, but I put up with it as much as I can stand to, assuming it's non-disruptive. Should it get disruptive though, I have no qualms explaining to someone that they're being rude, that I would like to play my game, and that if they should like to hold a post-mortem discussion of the game with me, they are more than welcome. Some people genuinely don't realize that they're causing a disruption.

I know, not nearly as exciting as threatening the guy, but I think it's more reasonable.

Arctik_Firangi wrote:I'm bad enough with giving my opponents tactical advice against me... the last thing I need is other people helping them have a chance at beating me!

I'm bad about this too. Constantly reminding my opponent that he hasn't moved or fired a unit, stuff like that. Some day I'll learn................

I don't mind a bit of banter when I'm playing a game, but that's because I tend to play games with and around the same people, so we all know how far the limit is. It can get annoying, though, when some guy just comes up and starts "backseat playing," as it were, and pretty much tries to dictate your every action. I find a firm but polite reminder of who is playing helps.

It really depends on the infraction or the comment. I have no probably people watching. However, commenting about what me or my opponent is doing or passing out helpful advise for either me or them. Its unwelcome.

Have had several encounters with people that thought their position or experience allowed them the right to interfere. If people are playing wrong, then, thats one thing and there are certain ways to go about informing the players. But butting in or trying to enforce your suggestions or the rules on players that either understand them or dont care...that will get you a nice "screw the heck off" response.

I've been experiencing this a bit of late.

I recently moved the shop I play at. As a result I'm still pretty much an enigma regarding how much I know.

There's a chap who I have been chatting to who is just starting and he's playing SW, which I have been playing since 3rd ed. So on a few occasions he's asked me for advice which I've given. Normally giving a quick "Do you mind? he's new" look to his opponent in the progress. Generally advice of the "Well remember they have this rule so are you sure you want to do that?" rather than telling him what to do. I tend to act as a talking rulebook in most situations anyway.

There is however another SW player who is a tad more forthright than me, we have entirely different play styles so I admit YMMV when talking to us. He often appear beside the new guy and says things like "Thats daft, why are you doing that, do this..." He has even been known to move the guy's models and say things like "Just moving these guys to set up the charge".

What I'm trying to say is that IMO there's nothing wrong with a bit of advice its the way that its presented that's the main problem.

I do it all the time and I know it's annoying

For me it depends on a few factors. If it's a friendly game and time is not a factor I will usually listen to what the person have to say and then decide with my opponent if we need to take heed or ignore the person.

At a tournament however I'll ask the person to stop or call a judge over. There is no reason why anyone should be interrupting your game or advising your opponent during a tourney other than a judge. If you see someone being cheated then instead of butting in you should find the judge and explain what you saw and let the judge handle it. And I've told guys I rode with to be quiet and go away when they tried giving me advise during my match.

I just think that it isn't fair to either player and severely handicaps the one receiving the advise or help. IMO I look at tourneys as a place to compete at your highest skill level. If I don't know or understand a rule well enough that you exploit it to your favor then part of the blame is on me. Why? Because with the BRB, the Codexes, and the dearth of knowledge available here, and across the net there is no reason not to know your stuff before signing up for the tourney.

If you see my opponent doing it to me tell me afterwards then I can learn by seeing the end result of the exploit and hopefully I learn from it.

I'm not bothered by the peanut gallery. Often they are as helpful as they are anything else.

If I had to deal with people doing audible armchair generaling from behind me, I'd probably lose my patience with them, but otherwise 40k is a social game. That usually involves interacting with other people.

i dont normally play at the local GW.. language barriers and all.. but if something has been done obviously wrong, or some egregious error has been made on either my or my opponents part, and someone corrects us (depending on how they come across mind you) i dont mind "outside" influences...

Other than that, in my normal game crowd the "side line generals" run amock with Gems of advice like, "you wont roll double 6s on that scatter die" or "i bet that daemon weapon will kill you... again" (one of our group has a notoriously terrible chaos lord who never seems to want to deepstrike, and when he does he becomes that mascot of futility)

Ailaros wrote:I'm not bothered by the peanut gallery. Often they are as helpful as they are anything else.

If I had to deal with people doing audible armchair generaling from behind me, I'd probably lose my patience with them, but otherwise 40k is a social game. That usually involves interacting with other people.

It is a Social Game, but there is a difference between harmless conversation between you/opponent and those outside of the game, and someone acting like a live action copy of the Rulebook, or adding their input on every move made in the game that they are not playing in.

Not to mention someone that is just being plain disruptive to the flow of your game. That is equally frustrating.

I had stuff like that, a guy who uses leadbelchers in 40k (?)
Said I was cheating when I deployed my Daemons (40k) in their 'special' way. I don't mind it generally but he is really irritating- he made me give up the battle because I couldn't stand him any longer.

I don't think I've ever had onlookers try to rules lawyer me. However, I do get a fair share of onlookers when I play at my FLGS who are not 40k players. The worst have been when this one gun nut military technician was making strained comparisons between everything we were using in-game and real life weapons. His encyclopedic knowledge of weapons started to get really creepy. The other time was when the bad stereotypical mouthbreather nerd watched us play and would not stop asking insipid questions. I was pretty vocal about what was happening, and I'd say something like "Okay, I need 2's to wound... alright, 2 wounds on your Hive Guard. You failed em both, he's dead" and our onlooker would ask me why we were taking the dead models off. He also started telling us about his friend that recently robbed somebody and if we knew how to check for recent arrests.

It's pretty customary for me to get the contact info for local Warhammer enthusiasts so I can put them on my mailing list, but I skipped these two.

I get annoyed when that irritating ten year old, whose wandered round looking at stuff on the shelves normally with parent either following yards behind or waiting near the door (probably in hope to make an escape when said ten year old isn't looking), stands right next to you or to the side of the board and starts asking 'what you doing?', 'Who's the men and who's the monsters?', 'Who's winning?', 'Why's he got so many dice?' (my brother is an ork player you see) and the WORST thing they do 'I like this one' and picks up the miniature they are focused on, without asking to move it. Its like satan has just dumped that kid by your game coz he knows that unless you turn into 'that foul-mouth inconsiderate child-hating mean person' that you have to suffer its existence 'til the aforementioned parent eventually calls them away after a) bugging the crap out of you and opponent, b) not bought anything and c) remains alive despite all of your thoughts of ramming a fist full of dice into their mouth 'til the choke.

Don't get me wrong I'm no expert and I have yet loads more to learn about diff. rules and games, etc. But even I know that you don't go interrupting and moving someone else's stuff coz you think it looks cool. The ol' saying 'treat others how you wish to be treated'.

I think every gaming board should have a tranquillizer gun attached to them for these type of emergencies

Rant over

It's annoying but it sometimes happens. Usually though when someone chimes in something really did go wrong however. I usually will chime in if I see something I truly know without a doubt to be wrong, but giving tactical advice and the like is a definite no-no unless it's beginner/intro games.

There is nowt worse than a Backseat Gamer.

So I position my troops, I use every ounce of cunning I posess, and set my trap. I grin inwardly as my opponent assesses the field, not noticing the mechnaism of his downfall, as slowly the gears begin to turn, the mechanism of my victory falling into place....THEN SOME gakker POINTS OUT THE TRAP!

ARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGH!

Just feth off and mind your own business eh? How is my opponent meant to grow and develop as a General if you hold his frikking hand at every step you goon? He didn't even ask for your help, and looks as pissed off as I am that you treated him like the tit you in fact are!

Mr Mystery wrote:There is nowt worse than a Backseat Gamer.

So I position my troops, I use every ounce of cunning I posess, and set my trap. I grin inwardly as my opponent assesses the field, not noticing the mechnaism of his downfall, as slowly the gears begin to turn, the mechanism of my victory falling into place....THEN SOME gakker POINTS OUT THE TRAP!

ARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGH!

Just feth off and mind your own business eh? How is my opponent meant to grow and develop as a General if you hold his frikking hand at every step you goon? He didn't even ask for your help, and looks as pissed off as I am that you treated him like the tit you in fact are!

I'd agree with this if its a comp I'm in.

If it's a friendly game against someone who hasn't a clue, I'd probably point out the options the player has. I suppose that makes me TFG to me!

However, if I'm playing against an opponent of that amount of experience, me pointing out the possible outcomes, counts as me coaching them and probably wont affect the outcome anyway.

Not much chance to play in LGSs, so I haven't had to deal with backseat gamers (thankfully), but I was interrupted several times during my very first in-store game by an exceptionally willful game store kid who, while "supervised" in terms of parental proximity, had a particularly timid and impotent mother, as well as a general inability to comprehend the concept of "stop." Luckily, the models on the sideline were still bare plastic and unbased, so a quick wash (that would have been done before priming, anyway) erased the taint of assumedly grubby child-hand.

In general, I'm exceptionally polite, so backseat gamers would get the please and thank you treatment before the eye-daggers start flying. I'm also inexperienced, so help with the rules is likely to be appreciated, if offered in an inoffensive manner (especially appreciated if a vet is abusing my naivety), but save the coaching until the game is over.