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His Master's Voice wrote:

Drunkspleen wrote:

Joey wrote:What about the much quoted power that lets you stand and shoot at normal BS? Blob guard could really do with that...

It's right there in the lists you quoted under divination, it also gives counter attack (which makes no sense whatsoever, either you charge headlong into the attacking unit, or you stand and shoot, both is just silly)

Unless it's run and shoot. A countercharge using your primary guns as you go in isn't that outlandish.

Then why doesn't the assaulting unit get to fire their guns as they go in?

Altruizine wrote:Dearest rattman, a few questions if you would be so kind;

1. Do the rules address Boneswords? Do they have their own entry? Are they lumped in with force weapons? Or do they defer to the Tyranid codex?
Boneswords are not listed master weapon chart, guess they use the rules the nid codex and get ap3
2. Can you confirm or deny that Fearless models no longer take extra wounds in lost combats?
doesn't mention extra wounds in the USR now, so think not
3. Can you clarify the list of Monstrous Creature abilities? Some people refer to the Smash rule (halve attacks for double strength, but other people refer to a Stomp rule; does it exist? Some people have also referred to a rule that allows Monstrous Creatures to hit numerous models in base to base; does it exist?
MC gain fear, hammer of wrath (free i10, str self ap - attack), move through cover, relentless and smash (all attacks ap2, can halve attacks to goto str 10 and reroll armor pen special rules
4. Are Daemons the only army to receive the new Fear rule (I believe it might be known as "Terrify)?
nope see above, fear is still in there

Drunkspleen wrote:

His Master's Voice wrote:

Drunkspleen wrote:

Joey wrote:What about the much quoted power that lets you stand and shoot at normal BS? Blob guard could really do with that...

It's right there in the lists you quoted under divination, it also gives counter attack (which makes no sense whatsoever, either you charge headlong into the attacking unit, or you stand and shoot, both is just silly)

Unless it's run and shoot. A countercharge using your primary guns as you go in isn't that outlandish.

Then why doesn't the assaulting unit get to fire their guns as they go in?

According to GW that's represented by the +1 attack.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

rattman wrote:

Altruizine wrote:Dearest rattman, a few questions if you would be so kind;

1. Do the rules address Boneswords? Do they have their own entry? Are they lumped in with force weapons? Or do they defer to the Tyranid codex?
Boneswords are not listed master weapon chart, guess they use the rules the nid codex and get ap3
2. Can you confirm or deny that Fearless models no longer take extra wounds in lost combats?
doesn't mention extra wounds in the USR now, so think not
3. Can you clarify the list of Monstrous Creature abilities? Some people refer to the Smash rule (halve attacks for double strength, but other people refer to a Stomp rule; does it exist? Some people have also referred to a rule that allows Monstrous Creatures to hit numerous models in base to base; does it exist?
MC gain fear, hammer of wrath, move through cover, relentless and smash special rules
4. Are Daemons the only army to receive the new Fear rule (I believe it might be known as "Terrify)?
nope see above, fear is still in there

About boneswords... if it's not in the master list, why does it get AP3? Current wording says it ignores armor... now I know this is playing with wording a bit, but if it's not listed I'm not inclined to self-nerf my codex.

Drunkspleen wrote:

Joey wrote:What about the much quoted power that lets you stand and shoot at normal BS? Blob guard could really do with that...

It's right there in the lists you quoted under divination, it also gives counter attack (which makes no sense whatsoever, either you charge headlong into the attacking unit, or you stand and shoot, both is just silly)

Oh yeah, my bad.

rattman wrote:2. Can you confirm or deny that Fearless models no longer take extra wounds in lost combats?
doesn't mention extra wounds in the USR now, so think not

It wasn't under the USR before either, it was under the Morale rules before.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Marrak wrote:

Drunkspleen wrote:

His Master's Voice wrote:

Drunkspleen wrote:

Joey wrote:What about the much quoted power that lets you stand and shoot at normal BS? Blob guard could really do with that...

It's right there in the lists you quoted under divination, it also gives counter attack (which makes no sense whatsoever, either you charge headlong into the attacking unit, or you stand and shoot, both is just silly)

Unless it's run and shoot. A countercharge using your primary guns as you go in isn't that outlandish.

Then why doesn't the assaulting unit get to fire their guns as they go in?

According to GW that's represented by the +1 attack.

Cool, so why doesn't counter attack mean the defenders shooting is represented by their +1 attack, there's no way you can justify defenders with counter-attack getting to make overwatch shots when attackers don't.

rattman wrote:

Altruizine wrote:Dearest rattman, a few questions if you would be so kind;

1. Do the rules address Boneswords? Do they have their own entry? Are they lumped in with force weapons? Or do they defer to the Tyranid codex?
Boneswords are not listed master weapon chart, guess they use the rules the nid codex and get ap3
2. Can you confirm or deny that Fearless models no longer take extra wounds in lost combats?
doesn't mention extra wounds in the USR now, so think not
3. Can you clarify the list of Monstrous Creature abilities? Some people refer to the Smash rule (halve attacks for double strength, but other people refer to a Stomp rule; does it exist? Some people have also referred to a rule that allows Monstrous Creatures to hit numerous models in base to base; does it exist?
MC gain fear, hammer of wrath, move through cover, relentless and smash special rules
4. Are Daemons the only army to receive the new Fear rule (I believe it might be known as "Terrify)?
nope see above, fear is still in there

Thank you!

I'm disappointed about Boneswords, but I suppose the FAQ could still state something like "Boneswords are not standard force weapons, and use the rules printed in Codex Tyranids".

On the other hand, I am very happy about MCs getting Fear. So, as it currently stands is is just "all daemons" and "all MCs" who get Fear?

Marrak wrote:
About boneswords... if it's not in the master list, why does it get AP3? Current wording says it ignores armor... now I know this is playing with wording a bit, but if it's not listed I'm not inclined to self-nerf my codex.

Then don't. 99% of the posts about GW breaking the game with 6th are by people who are flat out wrong about a lot of the new rules, like the guy who posted a list that would "break" the game and added in about 8 extra FOC that shouldn't have been there

Oooh, one more question, rattman:

-- Do units have to take an Overwatch shot against the first unit that charges them, or can they elect to "save" it for a more threatening unit they think will charge later in the phase?

Joey wrote:

Marrak wrote:
About boneswords... if it's not in the master list, why does it get AP3? Current wording says it ignores armor... now I know this is playing with wording a bit, but if it's not listed I'm not inclined to self-nerf my codex.

Then don't. 99% of the posts about GW breaking the game with 6th are by people who are flat out wrong about a lot of the new rules, like the guy who posted a list that would "break" the game and added in about 8 extra FOC that shouldn't have been there

well, specifically, I don't want to be "TFG" at my local store. But if the swords aren't listed I'd make a decent argument.

Is there any other codex specific weapon that follows the same wording, but was included in the master list... I wonder...

Marrak wrote:About boneswords... if it's not in the master list, why does it get AP3? Current wording says it ignores armor... now I know this is playing with wording a bit, but if it's not listed I'm not inclined to self-nerf my codex.

Rules in a codex always take precedence over the main rulebook. If the codex says 'ignores all armour' then you don't get armour saves unless a FAQ is issued for that codex.

Countdown to Boneswords being FAQ'd AP3 while Warscythes get FAQ'd as AP2...

rattman wrote:assuming bone swords are force/power weapon

They're not (in case anyone else asks).

edit: rattman
Do 'Hammer of Wrath' attacks automatically hit, or do they need to roll against WS?

Marrak wrote:

About boneswords... if it's not in the master list, why does it get AP3? Current wording says it ignores armor... now I know this is playing with wording a bit, but if it's not listed I'm not inclined to self-nerf my codex.

theres a line in force/power weapon section (assuming bone swords are force/power weapon) "if a force/power weapon has it own unqiue rules then ap3 weapon with extra rules as presented in the codex"

xttz wrote:
Rules in a codex always take precedence over the main rulebook. If the codex says 'ignores all armour' then you don't get armour saves unless a FAQ is issued for that codex.

Countdown to Boneswords being FAQ'd AP3 while Warscythes get FAQ'd as AP2...

That's completely untrue. If the rulebook says that weapons that say they ignore armor save count as being AP3, then that would be the rule.

Codexes typically supersede rulebook rules because they are more specific, but when the rulebook is written to clearly supersede codex wording then it does.

So while you may be right, it all depends on how the rulebook is worded, and naturally GW's FAQs will likely cover a lot of this stuff too.

Drunkspleen wrote:Then why doesn't the assaulting unit get to fire their guns as they go in?

They do? Provided they're equipped with assault weapons and pistols?

rattman wrote:

Marrak wrote:

About boneswords... if it's not in the master list, why does it get AP3? Current wording says it ignores armor... now I know this is playing with wording a bit, but if it's not listed I'm not inclined to self-nerf my codex.

theres a line in force/power weapon section (assuming bone swords are force/power weapon) "if a force/power weapon has it own unqiue rules then ap3 weapon with extra rules as presented in the codex"

Well, that basically puts that argument to rest for me. I know folks will argue it, but frankly the intention seems clear.

Shame... I love the idea with warriors with swords, but they were primarily there to take care of terminators. They'd still destroy power armor, but now I'm not sure I can justify the expenditure to myself. Especially when fielding 5 warriors with them is basically another brood of something else.

There's nothing in the codex that defines them as force weapons, so it will be up to the FAQ to make or break them.

rattman, could you check the overwatch thing?

And possibly peruse the Morale section to see if the Fearless / No Retreat rule is hiding in there? I suppose you could look at the index for "No Retreat" and if it's not in there we're safe.

rattman wrote:

Marrak wrote:

About boneswords... if it's not in the master list, why does it get AP3? Current wording says it ignores armor... now I know this is playing with wording a bit, but if it's not listed I'm not inclined to self-nerf my codex.

theres a line in force/power weapon section (assuming bone swords are force/power weapon) "if a force/power weapon has it own unqiue rules then ap3 weapon with extra rules as presented in the codex"

Boneswords aren't force weapons either as its not the bearer that takes a test but the wounded (if that makes sense). =)

Oh and rattman can psychic shooting attacks be used as overwatch?
and for that matter what are the rules for beast and terrain? some where we where told that they ignore terrain altogether if so does it state what happens when assaulting in to cover?

rattman, can you check what fast Vehicles can do ?
Rumors : moving Flat Out can be more lethal (fire more weapons than in 5th and moving faster [12" Normal + 18" Flat Out])

So can they move 12" and fire 2 weapons with normal BS? andwhat happens when they flat out?

Marrak wrote:

rattman wrote:

Marrak wrote:

About boneswords... if it's not in the master list, why does it get AP3? Current wording says it ignores armor... now I know this is playing with wording a bit, but if it's not listed I'm not inclined to self-nerf my codex.

theres a line in force/power weapon section (assuming bone swords are force/power weapon) "if a force/power weapon has it own unqiue rules then ap3 weapon with extra rules as presented in the codex"

Well, that basically puts that argument to rest for me. I know folks will argue it, but frankly the intention seems clear.

Boneswords aren't force weapons or power weapons, so that rule doesn't apply. Until it's FAQ'd they (and Warscythes) still ignore armour. I'm actually inclined to believe that this is intentional as the Necron codex was written with 6th in mind and Warscythes are specifically phrased the same way (without mentioning power weapons).

oldone wrote:

rattman wrote:

Marrak wrote:

About boneswords... if it's not in the master list, why does it get AP3? Current wording says it ignores armor... now I know this is playing with wording a bit, but if it's not listed I'm not inclined to self-nerf my codex.

theres a line in force/power weapon section (assuming bone swords are force/power weapon) "if a force/power weapon has it own unqiue rules then ap3 weapon with extra rules as presented in the codex"

Boneswords aren't force weapons either as its not the bearer that takes a test but the wounded (if that makes sense). =)

Oh and rattman can psychic shooting attacks be used as overwatch?
and for that matter what are the rules for beast and terrain? some where we where told that they ignore terrain altogether if so does it state what happens when assaulting in to cover?

if that's the case, Raveners are suddenly not terrible.

I wonder if the snakes have learned how to climb stairs yet. any word if beasts can go to higher levels in a ruin? For that matter, are different levels in a ruin still always 3 inches to move up or down?

wolverineD wrote:rattman, can you check what fast Vehicles can do ?
Rumors : moving Flat Out can be more lethal (fire more weapons than in 5th and moving faster [12" Normal + 18" Flat Out])

So can they move 12" and fire 2 weapons with normal BS? andwhat happens when they flat out?

doesn't have to overwatch the first unit to charge it to who ever asked that, basically declare charge, declare overwatch, roll charge range, move. but because you can't shoot while in combat if the first unit makes it into combat you wont be able to shoot at subsequent chargers

hammer of wrath = its one automatic hit at i10
preffered enamy = shooting and melle


fast vehicle move up to 12 flat out

combat speed - all weapons
cruise - 2 weapons at full bs and rest are snap fire (bs1)

ShumaGorath wrote:But now you're looking into the future of the games meta and using untested lists from a ruleset that isn't out to prove your points. That doesn't seem very honest to me.

I'm not sure why you went to lengths to discuss the advantages of MSU. I would understand if I at some point would have said the future is about large squads at objectives or something to that direction, but I didn't. All I said was that the metagame is shifting and that Razorspam is dead, and explained all the reasons why I think so. That's one particular army type -- The most popular one in the tournament circuit that I might add. That doesn't mean MSU is dead. Far from it. About the lists I mentioned, I said to go to the army lists forum to check them out and absolutely none of them are illegal so I don't know what lists you've been looking at. They're also all Necron lists. Not that it makes any difference but when the first line of your post is both incorrect and hostile it sets a bad tone for your entire response.

As far as being called dishonest, considering how much counter arguing I'm getting to my views, I'll call myself a visionary.

Marrak wrote:

oldone wrote:

rattman wrote:

Marrak wrote:

About boneswords... if it's not in the master list, why does it get AP3? Current wording says it ignores armor... now I know this is playing with wording a bit, but if it's not listed I'm not inclined to self-nerf my codex.

theres a line in force/power weapon section (assuming bone swords are force/power weapon) "if a force/power weapon has it own unqiue rules then ap3 weapon with extra rules as presented in the codex"

Boneswords aren't force weapons either as its not the bearer that takes a test but the wounded (if that makes sense). =)

Oh and rattman can psychic shooting attacks be used as overwatch?
and for that matter what are the rules for beast and terrain? some where we where told that they ignore terrain altogether if so does it state what happens when assaulting in to cover?

if that's the case, Raveners are suddenly not terrible.

I wonder if the snakes have learned how to climb stairs yet. any word if beasts can go to higher levels in a ruin? For that matter, are different levels in a ruin still always 3 inches to move up or down?

This is what I'm hoping is true as it will make them a decent choice to deepstrike into terrian (ignoring dangerous terrian because of move through cover) and then tieing up units in C&C so that the over units can land without being shoot to death. i thinking parasite of mortex (sp?) just got a lot better as he can now kill who he wants (see one a 6 IC can target who they like)

Therion wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:But now you're looking into the future of the games meta and using untested lists from a ruleset that isn't out to prove your points. That doesn't seem very honest to me.

I'm not sure why you went to lengths to discuss the advantages of MSU. I would understand if I at some point would have said the future is about large squads at objectives or something to that direction, but I didn't. All I said was that the metagame is shifting and that Razorspam is dead, and explained all the reasons why I think so. That's one particular army type, the most popular one in the tournament circuit that I might add. That doesn't mean MSU is dead. Far from it. About the lists I mentioned, I said to go to the army lists forum to check them out and absolutely none of them are illegal so I don't know what lists you've been looking at. They're also all Necron lists.

As far as being called dishonest, considering how much counter arguing I'm getting to my views, I'll call myself a visionary.

I'm sure people would appreciate it if you guys could exercise some restraint and cool the debate for as long as we have rattman here answering our queries.

@Rattman

Could you clarify if ordnance has changed at all in light of Snapshot? if you shoot ordnance are you still unable to shoot anythign else? this coudl have a major effect on the Monolith as well (if ordnance stays the same my monoliths will be played as necron bastions from now on)

Also, could you clarify how Beasts/Cavalry work in the new rulebook?



you rock btw.

rattman wrote:preffered enamy = shooting and melle

YESSS. Thank you. Destroyer Lord supremecy remains!

and for that matter what are the rules for beast and terrain? some where we where told that they ignore terrain altogether if so does it state what happens when assaulting in to cover?

beasts get fleet and move through cover, doesn't specify what happens assuming you were wanting to know about the initive penalty for assaulting in cover

Praxiss wrote:@Rattman

Could you clarify if ordnance has changed at all in light of Snapshot? if you shoot ordnance are you still unable to shoot anythign else? this coudl have a major effect on the Monolith as well (if ordnance stays the same my monoliths will be played as necron bastions from now on)

Also, could you clarify how Beasts/Cavalry work in the new rulebook?



you rock btw.

+1 on Rattman rocking, but not sure what you're asking here. Are you asking if Ordinance can't be used for Snapshot, or if you've shot Ordinance it prevents you from utilizing snapshot?

rattman wrote:

and for that matter what are the rules for beast and terrain? some where we where told that they ignore terrain altogether if so does it state what happens when assaulting in to cover?

beasts get fleet and move through cover, doesn't specify what happens assuming you were wanting to know about the initive penalty for assaulting in cover

Edited to reply to rattman's post.

Yes, although I believe it was stated earlier that beasts ignore cover, and therefore can assault with impunity through cover without the Initiative penalty. My question built on that, wondering how beasts now interact with multi-level terrain. Are they still stuck on the ground floor, or can they now climb? Also are multiple levels still considered to be 3 inches apart with regards to movement between them?

Altruizine wrote:I'm sure people would appreciate it if you guys could exercise some restraint and cool the debate for as long as we have rattman here answering our queries.

I'm sorry. I took a twelve hour break and posted a short and to the point response to Shuma's writings to close the debate, but I'll just go away and hide in a corner with my head hanging in shame because it interfered with all the 'DESTROYERS HERE I COME' posts.

its getting close to bed time for me so only a few more answers

Praxiss wrote:@Rattman

Could you clarify if ordnance has changed at all in light of Snapshot? if you shoot ordnance are you still unable to shoot anythign else? this coudl have a major effect on the Monolith as well (if ordnance stays the same my monoliths will be played as necron bastions from now on)

Also, could you clarify how Beasts/Cavalry work in the new rulebook?

you rock btw.

you can move and shoot ordanance, but if you fire ordanance and other attacks are snap shots only (BS1)

beast and CAV no idea haven't read that bit yet
cav

oh and jump pack get the auto hit I10 attack


and that gentlemen is good night

Therion wrote:

Altruizine wrote:I'm sure people would appreciate it if you guys could exercise some restraint and cool the debate for as long as we have rattman here answering our queries.

I'm sorry. I took a twelve hour break and posted a short and to the point response to Shuma's writings to close the debate, but I'll just go away and hide in a corner with my head hanging in shame because it interfered with all the 'DESTROYERS HERE I COME' posts.

There's no need for the melodramatics, he was polite in his request to you, which doesn't seem entirely unreasonable, so long as we are getting questions answered it's best for all involved to focus on the questions and answers.