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In the Scout Shotgun thread I read a lot about BP and CCW setups; I'm going to add scouts to my army soon and wanted to know if arming them with bolters is worth anything.

M.

Just depends on how you use them. I dont like scouts in hth. Mine get always get bolters. They tend to sit on an objective and shoot their 24 until a tac in rhino shows up to really claim it or something bigger. OR i use to outflank and have an attempt with melta bombs and they still retain their bolters.

I've never seen a scout with a bolter.

Sniper rifles are better for long distance, SG or CCW are better for getting close.

I'm going to wager that you don't often see scouts with bolters because for a modicum of points more, a tactical squad does bolters -so- much better.
It's simple, really, shotguns are just about as powerful at 12", and the real advantage of scouts on foot is their speed where move through cover, scout move, and infiltrate, along with potential fleet with Shrike all make them faster on foot than tactical marines.

BP+CCW scouts deal more wounds in CC than tacticals(taking more in return though).
Sniper Rifle scouts are better vs high T MCs than tacticals, and better vs any target past 24"(of course). Sniper rifles in addition offer great synergy with either heavy weapon choice(though the hellfire HB has become a favorite of mine). Plus they pin, which is gravy, and rending gives them at least the possibility of hurting a vehicle.
Shotguns give you the versatility to move and fire to full effect, and assault, which bolters don't. Vs most troops the loss of AP will not be noticed. If your troops are standing still to single fire their bolters outside of 12" chances are sniper rifles would be serving them better(both wound most targets on a 4+, but the snipers Rend).
Bolter scouts are...BS3 bolters. In an army that typically packs a few tens of BS4 bolters attached to very tough 3+ saves.

It's easy to see why bolters are not in favor on scouts.

I run two scouts with SG, two with CCW and the sarge with a power weapon or not depending on my points available

Well I run Space Wolves and have concidered running a BS-4 Bolt Gun armed Pack.

Anpu42 wrote:Well I run Space Wolves and have concidered running a BS-4 Bolt Gun armed Pack.

Thats different!

Yeah depending on how you use wolf scouts changes how you should arm them.
I use mine for assassinating HQ units and heavy support things and maybe killing objective holders so i use CC weapons all round and 2 power weapons and MoW.

Well, I do use bolter scouts. When I bother taking scous at all. I like them since I can park a unit in no mans land that has a decent volume of fire (HB or ML, 4 bolt guns) for 85 points. It creates a small bubble that threatens most xenos and Geqs. The missile launcher makes the unit a threat to light transports too. Of course lthe launcher in the scout squad make the unit a mid level threat, so more likely to be shot at... a good thing and a bad thing. The HB often gets ignored, bigger fish to fry, which means they get more turns of shooting... and they can still glance rhinos and pen if somebody has exposed AV 10.

Against other marines? Well, not that threatening, but you do get your kills in, and most people don't bother shooting at them early.

Why don't I take riffles instead? Well, 4 riffles will hit 2 times, and wound 1 time. Probably won't rend, so the MC with a 3+ or better will bounce it. Against Meqs, they probably make the save, or if they do fail, make the pin check. I could care less about pinning most Geq units.

Why don't I take shotguns? Well, I don't like 12 inch assault weapons on units that suck in CC. The 2 shots you get with them don't really do all that much damage, especially since they have no AP.

Why not CC blades? Scouts aren't all that good in CC, and SM can take good CC units, they just aren't in the troop section.

So its bolters in cover denying clear movement lanes for me.

I used 5 sniper scouts on bolstered cover (ruin) with telion and camo clocks to pee of an entire chaos armies right flank, having a 2+ cover save while firing sniper weapons and that boltgun telion has is sweet as.

I've never seen a scout with a bolter.

Sniper rifles are better for long distance, SG or CCW are better for getting close.

How have you never seen them? Do you mean have never seen them do well in competitive tournament lists?
Also, there are more ranges then camping and shooting and being in CC. I can see the appeal to the snipers. I always use my scouts with a tactical squad, so it helps to bolster a few more shots. If the scouts are not with a tactical squad, they are there to claim an objective while some termies keep them alive.

kaidsin wrote:

I've never seen a scout with a bolter.

Sniper rifles are better for long distance, SG or CCW are better for getting close.

How have you never seen them? Do you mean have never seen them do well in competitive tournament lists?
Also, there are more ranges then camping and shooting and being in CC. I can see the appeal to the snipers. I always use my scouts with a tactical squad, so it helps to bolster a few more shots. If the scouts are not with a tactical squad, they are there to claim an objective while some termies keep them alive.

Its just not a good idea. Tac marines are better than scouts with a bolter and have better armor. Scouts give up their ws bs and armor for one of 2 things.

Closing with the enemy as fast as possible to cc.

Cammo cloaks in a good position with cover. The extra damage from a sniper is nowhere near as important as the extra range when dealing with a static unit.

If scouts are not in one of those 2 positions then they are probably being used like tac marines.

schadenfreude wrote:

kaidsin wrote:

I've never seen a scout with a bolter.

Sniper rifles are better for long distance, SG or CCW are better for getting close.

How have you never seen them? Do you mean have never seen them do well in competitive tournament lists?
Also, there are more ranges then camping and shooting and being in CC. I can see the appeal to the snipers. I always use my scouts with a tactical squad, so it helps to bolster a few more shots. If the scouts are not with a tactical squad, they are there to claim an objective while some termies keep them alive.

Its just not a good idea. Tac marines are better than scouts with a bolter and have better armor. Scouts give up their ws bs and armor for one of 2 things.

Closing with the enemy as fast as possible to cc.

Cammo cloaks in a good position with cover. The extra damage from a sniper is nowhere near as important as the extra range when dealing with a static unit.

If scouts are not in one of those 2 positions then they are probably being used like tac marines.

Scouts can set up in positions that tactical marines can't. Want some midfield units during the start of the game to keep Scouting Valks or deffkoptas from scouting foward? Scouts do that. What is wrong with bolters? They put out a decent shot, and in short quarters can put out a decent volume of fire. Sniper riffles? You can't move and fire. They have long range, so why deploy them midfield? They only at most get 1 shot. Scouts aren't all that good in CC (they don't even compare well to an ork boy), so the shotgun and CCW/BP combinations isn't the best idea with 'nilla marines.

The best use I've had for scouts is denying movement lanes for on foot units, and preventing scout moves toward vehicles. A bolter is fine midfield weapon. It allows you to move and fire. It has longer range if you don't move. There isn't really any downside to bolter in a midfield scout unit.

notabot187 wrote:

schadenfreude wrote:

kaidsin wrote:

I've never seen a scout with a bolter.

Sniper rifles are better for long distance, SG or CCW are better for getting close.

How have you never seen them? Do you mean have never seen them do well in competitive tournament lists?
Also, there are more ranges then camping and shooting and being in CC. I can see the appeal to the snipers. I always use my scouts with a tactical squad, so it helps to bolster a few more shots. If the scouts are not with a tactical squad, they are there to claim an objective while some termies keep them alive.

Its just not a good idea. Tac marines are better than scouts with a bolter and have better armor. Scouts give up their ws bs and armor for one of 2 things.

Closing with the enemy as fast as possible to cc.

Cammo cloaks in a good position with cover. The extra damage from a sniper is nowhere near as important as the extra range when dealing with a static unit.

If scouts are not in one of those 2 positions then they are probably being used like tac marines.

Scouts can set up in positions that tactical marines can't. Want some midfield units during the start of the game to keep Scouting Valks or deffkoptas from scouting foward? Scouts do that. What is wrong with bolters? They put out a decent shot, and in short quarters can put out a decent volume of fire. Sniper riffles? You can't move and fire. They have long range, so why deploy them midfield? They only at most get 1 shot. Scouts aren't all that good in CC (they don't even compare well to an ork boy), so the shotgun and CCW/BP combinations isn't the best idea with 'nilla marines.

The best use I've had for scouts is denying movement lanes for on foot units, and preventing scout moves toward vehicles. A bolter is fine midfield weapon. It allows you to move and fire. It has longer range if you don't move. There isn't really any downside to bolter in a midfield scout unit.

I agree that bolters are good weapons, but a codex marine army already has plenty of bolters from tac marines.

The problem I have with scouts and bolters comes down to multiple factors, but the primary reason comes down to the job that a scout squad performs with bolters can be better performed by other units...

If the scout squad's primary job is to hold and objective that's in cover in or next to your own deployment zone then cammo cloaked scouts which cost the same as tac marines are an idea unit to do so. The 3+ cover/2+ with a techpriest or going to ground is better than power armor which makes scouts a popular objective holder. In this situation sniper rifles are ideal because the unit is never going to move, and the 36" range allows them to fire more often at a greater variety of targets.

If the job of a squad is to hold a midfield objective mechanized tac marines or drop podding marines are better at it than scouts. I'm not a fan of scouts with bolters in the middle of the battlefield because the middle of the battlefield tends to be a meatgrinder with heavy volumes of fire going into units there, and most of the assaults happen midfield. It's my universal opinion for pretty much all armies that their fast, scouting, and infiltrating units tend to do better when they avoid the meat grinder.

Scouts are excellent CC units. I say they are excellent CC units not in the normal nob biker/wolfguard/10 terminator + sanguinary priest deathstar way, they are excellent CC units in that they can pick and choose their fights for a low unit point cost. Deathstar units can't launch a turn 1 assault against Manticores, Lemun Russ tanks, Tau Pathfinders, or a Rhino fully loaded with Deathcompany + Chaplain. The turn 1 assault via land speeder storm is often suicidal, but very effective. Deathstar units also can not outflank. A turn 2/Turn3 assault by scouts against lootas or long fangs is in favor of the scouts. Assault scouts are inexpensive and downright deadly in the hands of a skilled player who is good at picking their fights.

Scouts can CC and range at the same time by combat squading 4 CCW scouts+Pfist Sargent in a LSS while the other half is split into 4 sniper rifle scouts and a ML/HB

I could see you use of scouts midfield to block scouting moves by the other player's deffkoptas/valks, but in doing so the scouts are in a very vulnerable position where they can not be expected to survive and hold an objective. If you're not counting on them to be a scoring unit then scout bikers become a viable option. It's everything a scout with a bolter can do, turbo boost, T5, relentless, and TL bolters for 4 points more than a tac marine.

Bolter armed scouts have to compete against all other scout options plus all other bolter options in the codex. PS my ard boys list that I won an army with this year has 20 scout bikers in it, so you're preaching to the choir when you're talking about the merits of boltguns