I know I shouldn't get drawn on this... but... can't... resist

Seriously, a couple of points just so you can have an informed debate based on the real reasons that Squats are no longer available. Be warned, it is going to be hard reading for people that like the Squat background.

First of all, Squats were *not* dropped because they were not selling well. There were then, and are now, plenty of other figure ranges that sell in the sort of % quantaties that the Squats pulled down, especially when you look across all of the ranges produced by GW rather than just those for 40K.

No, the reason that the Squats were dropped was because the creatives in the Studio (people like me, Rick, Andy C, Gav etc) felt that we had failed to do the Dwarf 'archetype' justice in its 40K incarnation. From the name of the race (Squats - what *were* we thinking?!?!) through to the short bikers motif, we had managed to turn what was a proud and noble race in Warhammer and the other literary forms where the archetype exists, into a joke race in 40K. We only fully realised what we had done when we were working on the 2nd edition of 40K. Try as we might, we just couldn't work up much enthusiasm for the Squats. The mistake we made then (deeply regreted since) was to leave them in the background and the 'get you by' army list book that appeared. With hindsight, we should have dropped the Squats back then, and saved ourselves a lot of grief later on.

Anyway, the Squats made it into 2nd edition, and since we were doing army books for each of the races, we started to try and figure out what to do with them. Unfortunately we just couldn't figure out a way to update them and get them to work that we felt was good enough. The 'art' of working on an army as a designer is to find the thing that you think is cool and exciting about an army, and work it up into a strong theme. This 'muse' didn't strike any of us, and so, rather than bring out a second-rate product simply re-hashing the old background, we kept doing other army books instead, with stuff we did feel inspired by.

Now, while this was all going on for 40K, we were actually doing some rather good stuff for the Squats in Epic. On this scale there was a natural tendancy to focus on the big 'hand-made' war machines the Squat artisans produced, and this created an army with a feel that was very different to the biker hordes in 40K. However, this tended to reinforce the problems we saw in the Squat background rather than alleviate them, underlining what we *should* have done with the Squats in 40K.

In the end (and it took years to really get to the roots of the problem) this led to a realisation that we were going to have to drop the Squats in their 'Squat' form from the 40K background. There was little point having a major race that we weren't willing to make an army book for, and their inclusion in the background meant that people kept asking us when we'd do a Squat Codex. Instead we decided that we'd write the Squats out of the background by saying that their Homworlds had been devoured by a Tyranid Hivefleet. This would give us the option in the future to return to making a race based on the Squat archetype for 40K. This race was given the name of Demiurg, and a certain amount of preliminary work was done to get a 'feel' for what the race would be like. At present the only hint of the Demiurg in 40K is the Demiurg spaceship for BFG. However, we do have this race 'in our back pocket' as a possible new race for 40K, or an interesting character model in Inquisitor, or whatever. So far the Demiurg have lost out to other projects, and it may be that their time never actually comes, as they will have to win through on their merits, not simply because we once made some Squat models in the past. At present, I have to say that it is more lilely that they *don't* make the cut than do, as there is a certain predudice these days to simply taking races from Warhammer and cross them over to 40K like we did in the early days, so it may be that the Squats/Demiurg end up remaining a footnote in the history of the 40K galaxy. Only time will tell...

I'll finish off by saying that whatever we decide to do 'officially', there is nothing stopping players with Squat armies from using them, either in Epic or 40k for that matter. There is no GW 'rule' against using old Citadel Miniatures, as long as you use them with exisiting army lists and in a way that won't cause confusion for other players. I recommend taking a positive stand by saying "Have you seen these cool old models? They're called the Squats and GW used to make them back in the late eighties/early nineties. I love 'em, so I count them as Imperial Guard and use them with the current rules..." Put like this I can't imagine that anyone would stop you from using your army.

Best regards,

Jervis Johnson
Head Fanatic

H.B.M.C. wrote:Never seen their Codex?

They never had a Codex.

Luke_Prowler wrote:I'm sure that more than half of the people who want Squats back have never actually seen their codex before. Seriously, it was not that inspiring. So can we all just drop it?

svendrex wrote: In terms of game play, I am not sure where the squats would fit in. Granted I know nothing of the old rules, but I am assuming that the space dwarfs would be slow/normal speed on foot, durable, decent with either guns or in close combat, and some interesting vehicles/war machines. I do not know what the "original" stat line was but probably WS4 BS4 S4 T4 I3 W1 A1 LD9 SV 3+ and maybe stubborn. To me this sounds very similar to just another MEQ army, basically Imperial Fists with less initiative. What could they add that would be different in look and feel from the huge number MEQ armies that are already out there? (If I am totally wrong please let me know this is actually a question)

Any new race should have a very different stat line than the armies present or have a way to play very differently from the other armies. Chaos Demons are a good example as they play very differently from any other army. 1) all the saves are INV saves, 2) everything deep strikes, 3) Everything is fearless. If they add a new race I would want to see something crazy, like an army where everything has an AV value. Just like the tyranids have no vehicles, it is a race where everything is a vehicle. The basic troop would be a walker or something....

Devastator wrote:squat=fail
dont bring them back

Lord_Astaroth wrote:I actually don't agree. Yes, Squats in thier current incarnation do not have any place in current 40k. I think the same as Orks of the same time period wouldn't fit or work at all in current 40k either. They've updated the terrible Tyranid models as well. IMO, all squats need is a facelift. The name was a bit goofy too. GW has already made the Demiurg for BFG and I think it's a step in the right direction. I've got some old Squat models that I used in my old IG army, but they don't get used anymore in my current Inquisiton IG army as they don't really belong anymore.

gazelle wrote:I was a Squat player. I used them in Rogue Trader and 2nd edition, and was working towards spiffing them up for 3rd when I stopped playing altogether. I sold off the bunch of them earlier this year, never imagining that I would be playing 40K again by the summer.

But as much as I love them, I think the time for Squats is past. The niche for a mobile, shooty army who have a history of trouble with the Orks and want peace with the Imperium has been filled by the Tau. I think conceptually, the Tau took everything about the Squats and took it to the next level (except the Kroot and Vespids, which make the Tau kind of cool in their own way.)

Kilkrazy wrote:

Apparently Frazzled is thinking of starting a Squat army.