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I have a gaming group that plays this, and while I have primarily been a 40k player I have strongly been considering getting started in war machine. The main reason being time, it is simply not always possible to play 4+ hour 40k matches, and paint my massive force. Many in my gaming group are excited about the game, and it might be a good thing to switch up to.

I need to pick an army, but not knowing a whole lot about the game I am trying to nail one down. I don't want to repeat what happened in 40k where I narrowed it down, chose, and then found out I actually wanted army B a month later.

My current choices (based solely on models, since that is my first factor to look at) is Cryx or Cygnar. I also was unsure if mercenaries is an independent faction, or if they could be used by any force?

I would just like to know some details as to what to expect with these forces as far as playtype, how forgiving they are, how many players play each (in case on faction is overloaded with [new]players, and any other information you could give me.

Mercs are their own faction, but you can use units from that book, though each of the 'main' faction only have a specific set of units they can choose from.

Cryx-(biased) are like........ Dark Eldar. They are glass hammers. Mostly, fragile stuff, but hard to hit, hit hard, count on corruption, soul gaining, and just generally being tricky. Themes include: all women, undead, and pirates.

Cygnar-they are 'known' for being the shooty faction (just for kicks, I'll be saying they are the SMurfs). They have alot of great ranged option, while combat options are few, they are decent with enough support. Cygnar forcuses on lightning, technology, more buffing than Cryx.

Cygnar get more options with respect to mercs IIRC, but Cryx get the option of Wrong Eye and Snapjaw, very nice minion duo.

/shrug, I suggest proxying small fights with each before you invest, there really isn't any way to find out with just words IMO. In addition, each faction has many Warcasters that vary the way the faction plays.

You can go Melee heavy with Cygnar and win.
You can go Shooting heavy with Cryx and win.
Just like the 'known for being slow' Khador can have flying Jacks from across the board.

Each faction is flexible enough so that it makes it even harder to approach explaining holistically.

Flying Khador, in other word, Strakhov list, flying devastator indeed

as for the cygnar, while being generally shooty, both the Thunderhead, and most of their heavies are good at melee, well not khador good, but hey good

as for shooting Cryx, really i have no idea, i am guessing reapers, and lot and lots of corrossion

That's some great information, thanks.

That is what makes it tough to choose, since I may end up liking the play style more of a faction from a whom I do not really like the models. To clarify one response, are you saying that mercs are standalone, but that they CAN be drawn from for any army for regulation play, or that they cannot?

Similar rundown of the other factions available by anyone would also be appreciated, just so I have a good idea of what to expect.

Nightsbane wrote:That's some great information, thanks.

That is what makes it tough to choose, since I may end up liking the play style more of a faction from a whom I do not really like the models. To clarify one response, are you saying that mercs are standalone, but that they CAN be drawn from for any army for regulation play, or that they cannot?

Similar rundown of the other factions available by anyone would also be appreciated, just so I have a good idea of what to expect.

Merc/Minnions are the odd ones. The factions can stand alone or be included in other armies, but there are restrictions on who mercs will fight for and with whom. BattleCollege does the the topic better justice then a forum post could. Click me and me.

Nightsbane wrote:That's some great information, thanks.

That is what makes it tough to choose, since I may end up liking the play style more of a faction from a whom I do not really like the models. To clarify one response, are you saying that mercs are standalone, but that they CAN be drawn from for any army for regulation play, or that they cannot?

Similar rundown of the other factions available by anyone would also be appreciated, just so I have a good idea of what to expect.

Khador known for heavily armored warjacks and units(Iron fang pikeman, man o wars)
Protectorate known for buffing their own army especially jacks(choir,vassal,reclaimer)
cryx known for magic and fast but fragile army also good for making your opponents army worse(debuffing)
cygnar known for shooting and expensive jacks and units(cygnar tax?)
retribution now while I have no real experience they seem to be a mix of crx and cygnar(good spells and shooting, expensive jacks)
Trolls very high armor brick army(hard to kill very mêlée oriented)
circle like cryx fast but fragile with good spell support
legion very fast runs fairly beast heavy also a good bit of shooting from infantry
Skorne combo of khador(heavily armored beasts) and menoth(good army buffing abilities)

These little blurbs are very generic as all of these armies can be played in many ways, If you like cryx and warjacks a monenebra list might be just what you are looking for.

Mercs can be used as a faction and as support for other factions. All mercs have specific lists of factions they will work for.

As for a faction rundown. I could give the fanboy answer of "everybody does everything", but that's a total lie. Every army is competitive in some form though.

Cygnar- Specialty in ranged units. They have quite a few ranged units available and even their melee units tend to have some ranged capacity. They aren't weak in melee, but it will be an uphill battle if you want to dump all of your points there as Cygnar casters generally don't have spells that buff melee threat ranges or capabilities, so you'd be playing a bit against the grain and more specialized melee factions will be a problem. Ideally Cygnar are generally topheavy with ranged units supported by melee and casters either casting buffs or arcing spells.

Khador- Specialty in melee units. The army tends to hit hard and pack robust enough statlines to get them to the opponent even through gunlines. If you want to specialize in ranged combat you'll have a few small issues to contend with most notably, Khador tends to have pretty atrocious RAT, so their ranged units tend to rely a lot on templates that aren't reliable. A general lack of arc nodes with the exception of one caster who brings her own also makes offensive spelling enemies with your caster a problem. Ideally Khador are melee heavy to a fault with some ranged support in the form of mortars or widowmakers and the caster just maintaining buffs and wrecking face (which almost all of them can do very well).

Menoth- Specialty in buffing units. Menoth has some great units from Bastions to Errants, and most casters at least do something for the infantry. Their jacks always tend to have things like choirs or vassals around making them some of the best in the game for their points. Menoth ranged attacks tends to be a good bit like Khador ranged attacks in that they don't often go for direct hits, but Menoth RAT in general is not terrible, so units like the Errants can do both ranged and melee effectively. It's not that it can't do ranged, and some casters like eFeora can make your life hell from a stupid distance, but the general rule for Menoth is the same as Khador, your ranged units are there to support, not do the heavy lifting. Ideally Menoth has a number of buffs floating around at any given time, making order of activation important and also making it more difficult for beginners to truly get a hang of, with some ranged elements and possibly, but not always, spell support via arc nodes.

Cryx- Specialty in debuffing units. It should be mentioned that Cryx pays the "gun tax" i.e. everything with a gun in cryx is overpriced, so if you want to do a ranged heavy cryx list, you'll have some serious problems if you run into a real gunline. Almost everything in Cryx is fragile and wont stand up to any real punishment. They rely on stealth and other shenanigans to keep from getting shot at, but even in melee the army won't last long. The idea with Cryx is more to b-line it to the assassination than try and get into an attrition-based fight. At the very least your units need to be the ones hitting and not getting hit. That being said, Cryx has a good bit of speed, so it generally isn't hard and if even 1 Bile thrall makes it through he'll pay for the whole unit. They also tend to have a lot of debuffs from Bane Thralls reducing armor, to arc noded spells from the caster that cripple units. Ideally Cryx is set up for the caster kill, moreso than any other faction, with multiple routes to that end goal, but the array of units and jacks can vary considerably from caster to caster.

Retribution- No real specialty. Retribution tends to be the odd faction with units that do melee, magic and ranged pretty well. Additionally the army has a number of multi-role units, and not the bad kind where they're crap at everything. Invictors are a good example, they're solid at a distance and in melee with good all around stats, the Mage Hunter Strike Force also has respectable melee stats even though they're mostly a ranged unit, and while the battle mages like using their spells, they're no slouches with their gauntlets. Then again their units have to be good, because a casual scanning of their casters reveals very few unit buffs. Their jacks follow a similar template, but you pay a heavy premium for the versatility and they tend to have some of the most expensive heavy jacks in the game. A Retribution army can pull off melee, ranged or magic heavy well, but they run into problems as they simply don't have all the bells and whistles of the newer factions and the tricks they do posess have obvious counters.

Thanks for the detailed replies, it seems I am pretty settled on the two I mentioned then. At least I know that I will need to decide between those two and not have to sort through all of the options. My concern with Cygnar is it being to bland (or overplayed) and my concern with Cryx is it being too hard.

Cryx is a bit hard at first, obviously, but not insanely impossible. Generally, it falls down to what playstyle works for you in Cryx. I played pDenny for a while and I thought about switching to eGaspy, pGaspy, Skarre, Mortenebra, p and eGoreshade, until I finally settled on eDenny. (Note, didn't buy all those casters though, lol)

So, what I'd suggest for Cryx is to just figure out what works for you, a little more attrition (not too much though, if you want attrition, play Khador), direct cutthroat assassination, Debuffing, etc. And when it comes to model selection, try to pick out units that work with the caster. No sense in me picking up eGaspy when the only infantry he can rezz in my lists are Mech/Bile Thralls. Thankfully, this isn't too hard to accomplish, many units like Mechanithralls or Bane Thralls/Knights fit in perfectly in many, if not all lists.

So, what I'd suggest for Cryx is to just figure out what works for you, a little more attrition (not too much though, if you want attrition, play Khador), direct cutthroat assassination, Debuffing, etc. And when it comes to model selection, try to pick out units that work with the caster. No sense in me picking up eGaspy when the only infantry he can rezz in my lists are Mech/Bile Thralls. Thankfully, this isn't too hard to accomplish, many units like Mechanithralls or Bane Thralls/Knights fit in perfectly in many, if not all lists.

I dunno, MechThrall lists and eGoreshade tier play the attrition game annoyingly well. :/

Being guilty of more than my fair share of Cryx love -
DO NOT PLAY CRYX.

The learning curve is steep, hateful, and people don't like you.
Cryx have a *lot* of girls.
The army pays you to be close, but not too close...meaning you need a good poker face.
The army doesn't feint. If it looks weak, its a trap.
The Deathjack is mean to use against people. The Nightmare is only unfriendly.
Who likes undead pirates?
Their fragile infantry can attack a warjack and hurt the caster...or make infantry explode. There's no satisfaction to it.
Attrition? No, they take models from you and add them to their forces. They can even take Warjacks!

Basically, nobody likes Cryx. They suck on ice and ....
Ok, yeah, I admit it. These are all reasons Cryx are Awesome.

As a totally unbiased bystander I would also like to chime in that playing cryx, you will need to work on what trick works when. A lot of the tricks are pretty obvious, while the greater combo's are a bit harder to pull off.

Think of it this way. It is easy to see that the withering can be a great feat. (all stats -2 for the enemy) It is a bit harder to see that the withering, crippling grasp (-2 to speed, def and arm) and a banethrall (darkshroud, -2 arm) to a jacks face (now speed and def minus 4, arm minus 6) is devestating to the jack.

Even that example is a relative easy combo. it does get better and better with more practice...

Now Do not watch the signature as I am really unbiased

Nightsbane wrote:Thanks for the detailed replies, it seems I am pretty settled on the two I mentioned then. At least I know that I will need to decide between those two and not have to sort through all of the options. My concern with Cygnar is it being to bland (or overplayed) and my concern with Cryx is it being too hard.

if anything, i have seen more Cryx player than Cygnar....., well Cygnar IS bland, a bit like the smurfs of 40k

LordRavurion wrote:As a totally unbiased bystander I would also like to chime in that playing cryx, you will need to work on what trick works when. A lot of the tricks are pretty obvious, while the greater combo's are a bit harder to pull off.

Think of it this way. It is easy to see that the withering can be a great feat. (all stats -2 for the enemy) It is a bit harder to see that the withering, crippling grasp (-2 to speed, def and arm) and a banethrall (darkshroud, -2 arm) to a jacks face (now speed and def minus 4, arm minus 6) is devestating to the jack.

Even that example is a relative easy combo. it does get better and better with more practice...

Now Do not watch the signature as I am really unbiased

I have had this happen before, a def 5 arm 13 driller doesn't last long against a couple of charging bane thralls. lol

hehe. It can be even worde in some cases, as with tartarus curse on the driller it would be entirely screwed

There are a lot of other examples of possible ways to screw with the opponent. this was an easy example of battlebox+1 unit. play a couple games with the battlebox and you will soon learn how deadly deathrippers can be in combat on a big jack, if the circumstances are right

welcome to the nightmare empire

Yea, wrecking jacks is what bane do exceedingly well. It's mass infantry that annoy it, but we have lots of options for that (bile purges, venoms, mist/breath, etc.).

It's only the fragility we need to deal with and feats.

Fragility in that we do not have an infaction shieldwall.... um.... we don't have options for any kind of shieldwall unit IIRC.

In addition, the only shield guard unit we have is a merc option, so our faction is not too hot on the defense as they are on offense as discussed.

And like a thread in the PP forums goes: Cryx are just too good, you can make a 50 point list and be 75+ points over fitting all the 'cool' stuff .

Anything with polarity shield sucks.
Anything that auto=hits/auto-damage sucks.
Fire is bad for us.
Spells/feats that reduce spd or def are bad for us.
True Sight or the near-equivalents are a pain.

Yeah, cause the turn 1 satyxis charge gets old after the first 20 times.

I have armies for all the old Warmachine factions. IMHO, the armies, from easiest to hardest to use are:

Khador: Durability and insane hitting power make this army the most forgiving. Good range of shooty and hitty models. Has no arc-nodes but has a number of solos who provide much needed boosts to units.

Cryx: You will outnumber your opponents most of the time. Their spellcasting is potent and defense is high on all the value targets. They have a few very points cheap units that also hit hard. Being mostly undead means that the army ignores almost all command checks. There are almost no sub-par models and many highly points efficient ones in the Cryxian range in terms of performance.

Menoth: Spend some quality time getting your teeth kicked in while you figure out which units go well with which. Menite units on their own are somewhat mediocre. Spend some quality time kicking teeth in once you figure it out... Well kitted, mutually supporting Menite armies are -very- strong and number into the same absurd quantities as Cryx as many of their bread and butter units are very cheap.

Mercenaries: Good spread on points costs. Generally mediocre skill levels on the bread and butter guys. The expensive elites are very effective, but very expensive. If you go with the non-named units, you will typically outnumber. Not so much if you go the other way. Warjacks are no-frills but very effective for their points values. Little synergy between units in the army, but the low points values somewhat offset this.

Cygnar: You will start playing and wonder why all your infantry is more expensive (1-2 points typically) than other faction infantry in the same role. This is because Cygnar has lots of jack of all trades models, and are priced as such. Cygnar infantry (even the heavy armored ones) are notoriously squishy. Their jacks are among the best. They have lots of accuracy and range buffs (resulting in most ranged units paying a 1 SNIPE (RNG+4) tax), but few damage increasing ones. Accuracy is typically very high and damage output is typically average low. Their in faction weaknesses are somewhat mitigated by easy access to mercenaries and they are known for having non-faction specific buffs. Due to often being outnumbered by almost everyone... (even Khador!) and the inherent lack of durability in Cygnar armies, I think that Cygnar IMHO is tied with mercs in generating player frustration.

Alright then, I need some opinions on my options of how to fund this new hobby then, so take a look at what my options are.

I currently have a decently large Blood Angels/Space Marines force, which I sunk quite a bit of money in. Here is what I have:

The Sanguinor
Astaroth the Grim
Mephiston/Libririan
Space Marine Captain

20 x Assault Marines
20 x Tactical Marines
10 x Sternguard Veterans
10 x Assault Terminators with Thunder Hammer/Storm Shields
10 x Sanguinary Guard
3 x Sanguinary Priest
5 x Scouts
Predator Tank
Rhino
2 x Razorback
Drop Pod
Dreadnought
Venerable Dreadnought

I have the codex, the original rulebook, templates, and many other materials including an official games workshop double sized hardshell case (which I may keep for warmachine figs), and the official line of sight lazer.

I am considering one of two things with this, since this is the only place I have to fund a new hobby right now.

Option A: I get out of the 40k hobby, and ebay all of that in one large lot. It is around 1/3 painted, the rest primed. The paint quality of the finished troops is pretty excellent.

Option B: I sell the following items to get some cash to get me started.

1 Venerable Dreadnought
1 rhino/razorback
2 tactical squads
1 Sanguinary Guard
1 tigurius

It's a tough choice. My gaming group right now plays a lot of different games, many play 40k, some play fantasy, but ALL play warmachine. I have been watching some videos of gameplay of warmachine and I am intrigued. It is also a game that would not take me 3 years to paint my force which is a bonus to me (HATE fielding unfinished units).

What do you guys think? I'm interested in anything and everything you have to say on the issue.

I think 40K is just overpowered in Warmahordes.


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Proxy is my answer. Sleep on it and give it some time.

Yikes. That's a good chunk. I wouldn't sell anything unless I was 100% sure I was never ever going to use it again. It would be a pain to rebuy.

How long would it take you to scrape together 100 bones? That would get you a starter and a few solos. Invest the next $50 into an infantry unit and you'll be at (or close) to normal game size. If at all possible, I'd just try and save up for it.


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Sanctjud wrote:I think 40K is just overpowered in Warmahordes.

SHHHHHH! Those P+S4 Space Marines with their ARM3?

keezus wrote:Yikes. That's a good chunk. I wouldn't sell anything unless I was 100% sure I was never ever going to use it again. It would be a pain to rebuy.

How long would it take you to scrape together 100 bones? That would get you a starter and a few solos. Invest the next $50 into an infantry unit and you'll be at (or close) to normal game size. If at all possible, I'd just try and save up for it.


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Sanctjud wrote:I think 40K is just overpowered in Warmahordes.

SHHHHHH! Those P+S4 Space Marines with their ARM3?

It's been one of those years. Sewer line collapsed, car died, and other problems all at once. My gaming fund was wiped out, and I ended up selling some gaming stuff to get tabletop stuff over the summer. It will be Next spring/summer before I have a lot of extra again. That's why it's kind of an either or issue.

ah, the when it rains it pours line... To bad on the misfortune.

I think I speak for everyone as I say that helping you make a decision on how to get funds for something non-vital (sorry, it is not vital to play a game, although some of us can't miss it) is not our place. make the decision based on the probability you will get back in the hobby of 40K.

good luck with the decision...

Don't sell your WHOLE army, just on the off-chance you ever do get back into 40k. I mean who knows, GW may eventually get thier sh** back together and start doing it right after everyone quits 40k to start up Warmachine/whatever else. (or not, but a man can dream can't he?)

But I think selling that second list's worth of stuff should net you quite enough to start your Warmachine army, especially if they're painted and ESPECIALLY if you buy from an eBay Store. (mmm, 30% discount...)

It is certainly a hard choice.

Answer me this, how much money is needed to build a competitive cryx army with some options? That lets me know how much I need to get started. I am not just talking battlebox, I am talking being able to actually play with other wachine players on average.

200 or 300 dollar at max?

at least that is what my designed Menoth list look like, although it depends, on how many points your group plays
mine play 15-25, next saturday trying for 35 points

Tier4 Gorshade at The Warstore Full units of 10

2 Cryx: Bane Thralls Box Se $77.98
2 Cryx: Bane Thrall Officer $41.98
1 Cryx: Warcaster Goreshade $9.99
4 Cryx: Stalker Bonejack $35.96
1 Cryx: Bane Lord Tartarus $12.99
1 Mercenaries: Cylena Raefy $26.99
2 Mercenaries: Nyss Hunters $17.98
1 Cryx: Bane Thralls Box Se $38.99
4 Cryx: Bane Thralls $51.96
Subtotal $314.82

You might be able to do beter, but its a good rule of thumb.

35 points and fairly hazardous to the other guy.

Edit: Should put the point total for your convenience...

if you want variaty get the following:

battlebox
1 or 2 casters
Mechthralls
- brutethralls
Slayer/reaper or seether
Banethralls
- Bane thrall ua
Tartarus

The troops will be able to hold their own quite nicely with almost all casters. the banes especially are a nice module for each caster. The extra slayer/reaper or seether makes it so you can vary lists a bit more.

if I can remember correctie this should be inside of 150 euro's.

dungeontrader.com 30% off, and if you are making a $250+ order, no shipping.

Some stuff is even more discounted. Great web store.

An update, I am going to watch a demo tonight by some friends to see the game in action. I have been watching some tutorials on youtube and like what I see so far. Honestly the only thing the game seems to be lacking is vehicles of some sort, I have always been a fan of the GW iterations.


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thought of something when looking starting price, what is needed book wise? It looks like they dropped their all in one book strategy so I would need the core book, faction book, and faction deck?